A question of morality

[Scaramouche]

It can be, however if this is a question of morality, then I would have to say no. I think the best thing is to address the underlying issues and simply get over it. I don't believe retribution is ever the answer

I just wanted to address that part. How do you get from "this is about morality" to the "no" at the end? I find it entirely moral. And obviously retribution is often the answer, because it can produce the exact right result.

[Asaryu]

Morality, to me, is the manifestation of a persons morals. My morals preclude me from undertaking retribution. Able to achieve the 'correct' result or not, I don't think that the sullying of one's character with retribution is ever going to be worth the usually momentary gain that comes from retribution.

And in the case of cheating, I don't think any amount of retribution will make the pain and hurt that one person feels at being betrayed go away. I do think that both people should be capable of learning from the experience and finding better ways to interact. As I said, cheating is teh result of a flaw in the relationship between two people. While one person actively did something wrong and certainly should have handled it all better, it is inevitably going to be the consequence of a relationship that was both partners responsibility. And so to take retribution on another person for something that is in part your own responsibility seems, to me, immoral.

[Scaramouche]

Morality, to me, is the manifestation of a persons morals. My morals preclude me from undertaking retribution. Able to achieve the 'correct' result or not, I don't think that the sullying of one's character with retribution is ever going to be worth the usually momentary gain that comes from retribution.

And in the case of cheating, I don't think any amount of retribution will make the pain and hurt that one person feels at being betrayed go away. I do think that both people should be capable of learning from the experience and finding better ways to interact. As I said, cheating is teh result of a flaw in the relationship between two people. While one person actively did something wrong and certainly should have handled it all better, it is inevitably going to be the consequence of a relationship that was both partners responsibility. And so to take retribution on another person for something that is in part your own responsibility seems, to me, immoral.

So, correct me if I got this stream wrong.

1. Is it reasonable and acceptable, when someone harms us or betrays us, to act against them in turn?

2. It can be, however if this is a question of morality, then I would have to say no.

3. Why?

4. It's the guy's fault too for being cheated on.

[Asaryu]

That's not what I said at all. I said the cheating was the result of a flawed relationship. And that the relationship was the responsibility of both partners.

And I can't think of a single time when individual retribution is better than understanding and moving on in a healthy way. But I am allowing the option there, since I know that my experience and imagination are not absolute.

[midgetshrimp]

Scaramouche: You either just don't have the ability to decipher what people mean when they say something, or you try to twist everything someone says to prove your point. You do this a lot, and it's hard to believe a person can misunderstand other peoples' views that much.

[Scaramouche]

That's not what I said at all. I said the cheating was the result of a flawed relationship. And that the relationship was the responsibility of both partners.

And I can't think of a single time when individual retribution is better than understanding and moving on in a healthy way. But I am allowing the option there, since I know that my experience and imagination are not absolute.

Retribution isn't a healthy way to move on?

[Scaramouche]

Scaramouche: You either just don't have the ability to decipher what people mean when they say something, or you try to twist everything someone says to prove your point. You do this a lot, and it's hard to believe a person can misunderstand other peoples' views that much.

Actually there's a purpose. If someone has a belief or opinion which I suspect is illogical (eg. retribution isn't a healty way to move on), or derived from a desire to rid themself of guilt (eg. a cheater saying it's partially someone else's fault), or any such thing, I tend to bounce it back to them in a very blunt manner in the hopes of steering them toward a bit of self-analysis. However, I am aware that this all to often results in defensiveness and resultant aggressive responses rather than the desired self-analysis.

[Asaryu]

Hahaha...I don't think anyone has ever told me I lack self-analysis before.

In my experience, any time that retribution has been attempted, it has left the person seeking it bitter, disappointed and more miserable than they were before. The one occasion I myself have attempted retribution, I was left feeling empty, miserable and, if anything, worse off as a person than I was before-hand. I would honestly like to see what the logical argument for retribution is. If it is convincing enough, I may change my point of view.

I have a very, very strict moral code. It's not a normal moral code, to be certain, but I adhere to it stringently. And that moral code involves an imperitive towards introspection and self-analysis of the type that most only skim past in the philosophy section of the library. I do not have the time and the energy to explain my moral code to someone who, as far as I have expereienced, will not understand it. Now, this is becasue I have tried to explain it to people before, and certain people with certain characteristics will tend to think of my moral code as being silly or idealist or illogical or whathaveyou, but it is my experience that it is them who have failed to be introspective about the issue at hand.

I do not try to justify my actions. It took me years to get over the guilt of cheating on my partner. He forgave me instantly, because as far as he was concerned I didn't do anything wrong (as I stated above) but according to my own juvenile understanding of relationships, I had done something terrible. I have developed as a person, and so has my understanding of human relationships and I can say with almost certainty, that if someone were to cheat on me, I would be hurt, I would feel betrayed, but I would also feel responsible, and I would not desire retribution. I have also armoured myself against the potential for cheating, however by maintaining open lines of communication about my and my partners' attractions to other people. By opening these lines, I and my partners have managed to prevent 'cheating' by changing the rules of the game to accommodate a variety of experiences. The only way to cheat on me is to lie to me, and the only consequence is that they will lose me from their lives forever.

[Tenjen]

Retribution is a downhill road and not [96% of the time] condusive to productive personal growth or healing. Its an abyss, and remember how an abyss stares into you when you stare into it? The same happens when you're delving into that abyss.

[Scaramouche]

Retribution is a downhill road and not [96% of the time] condusive to productive personal growth or healing. Its an abyss, and remember how an abyss stares into you when you stare into it? The same happens when you're delving into that abyss.

Why do you have these negative ideas about retribution?

[Tenjen]

Seen a lot of it commited by people around me. Its just that there are better options, more productive options. More effective options.

Seeking retribution can also possibly lead to the victim seeking their own retribution and so on and so forth till the people involved are in a cycle of bitter hate and may even have forgotten why they're doing it for.

[Asaryu]

An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

[Morwen]

what Asaryu said... but sometimes you just say "fuck it" and poke their eye out

[Don Alexander]

Then bury them deep and go away whistling...

[Tenjen]

and then the person comes out of the grave and screams cer..wait ah caught myself there.

Another problem with retribution is that there will always be collateral damage when you target the person in afflictor-soon-to-be-victim.

there are moments that merit such behavior. But its just not that common.