GD Announcements / Suggestions.

[thaldin]

Nah, just lots of experience with PHP boards...

Mod and admin on more than a couple due to being a guild officer back in the day for an EverQuest guild and a WoW guild... =)

[Dirty n Evil]

I've been thinking very heavily on the gender division issue concerning the contests. As a moderator, I think it's very important that all of us are considerate and kind to one another here, despite the many differences we have. However, as with any issue, the greater the specific diversity the more often questions arrise. The question is how to best address these issues in a way that's fair to all.

I'll put my personal opinion on one idea - that of not splitting the contest by gender, of lumping everyone in the contest into one pool. I'm a mod now and in the sake of fairness I don't think I should be in contests so I can remain objective. However, I think if I could participate... as a guy, I would quickly grow frustrated at entering contests and running against the ladies here. Even if pics weren't permitted, I don't think it would be fair. I still think the ladies would win a greater percentage of the contests than the percentage of who participate. I owe this prediction to the fact that many of us guys are by nature a bit competitive with one another, even on this board. Much of it playful, some of it a bit more abbrasive, but we can be competitive. This makes us less likely to vote for another guy, and as a direct result mostly voting for the girls. Let's just say for the sake of arguement that the girls who vote are above our petty masculine trends and vote on average evenly between the two genders. This still swings the votes consistantly towards the ladies, and on to the possible frustration guys who enter and want to win would feel fairly consistantly.

I'm perfectly comfortable with people stating what gender they feel most comfortable identifying with. In earlier confusion that lead to hard feelings and much discussion, Nathan gender identified as male - and for me, that was acceptable. I'm good with that, and I'm entirely comfortable with saying in his pics he was a purple and pink haired cutie. If I were to tell people that I've started to gender identify with female, I'd hope that people here would accept me and be understanding as they used the feminine pronoun with me. I'd expect a lot of questions, because we're a naturally curious bunch online, and I'd expect a few of those questions might be addressed in a less than gentle way. I'd like to think that most of the people on these boards wouldn't be mean or unkind on purpose.

And that leads me to an apology towards Pneu. Pneu stated that I referred to Pneu in the feminine gender... in the cases that I did, I believe it was inspired by some memory of Pneu stating Pneu is not male. I didn't mean to offend, and I still don't. However, I would like to take this opportunity to invite Pneu towards Pneu's possible solution to not only this problem, but also on the issue of pronoun usage.

Unfortunately as a means of communication, the English language is limited towards the three singular pronouns. He, She, and It. 'It' is a very unflattering way of referring to another person, to paraphrase Nathan. 'It' objectifies an individual, and has historically been used as a way to denounce someone as less than human. As a piece of property, even. I would be more than happy to call Pneu whatever Pneu asks us to call Pneu... but the problem with not gender identifying is it makes any form of communication that's limited to the three pronouns of the English language very clumsy. Look through any post in which anybody speaks of anyone else in length and you'll find a pronoun. It's necessary for clear conversation.

Towards this end, Pneu, I ask you with genuine warmth and sincere hope that you'll take everything I've said in the most respectful tone it was intended... what would you suggest? You are the most offended party, but not the only one. Your input is valued, and I would honestly take anything you say as an opportunity to understand you better.

[Dirty n Evil]

Sorry to double post, but I thought I'd simply relate this. Pneu has informed me that Pneu is going to take some time off, and as such is not going to respond to this post as I'd asked.

So, I'll throw this out towards everyone... are you happy with the format of one contest for guys, one contest for girls? Do you have a different idea, and if so, what? This is the suggestions thread, and I'm actively asking for your suggestions. Is the answer as simple as commenting in your contest applications what gender you'd prefer to run under? Just trying to find out what everyone thinks, in an attempt towards improving everyone's enjoyment here on the boards.

[Asaryu]

Perhaps we can be more imaginative than gender in our splitting of the groups. With a little planning, the contests can be split into amusing groups. For instance, the ebilness contest, from memory, had 3 definitions of ebil. Perhaps a better way of splitting could have been for entrants to specify which strain of ebil they were applying for, and then group them according to that?

I mean, demographic is such an arbitrary distinction anyway. We wouldn't separate forumites based on salary, occupation or age. So why on gender? I understand that the cleavage shots were one of Bears main reasons for the sorting, because boys couldn't compete against cleavage and it wouldn't have been fair. And from the brick-like hints that Sway was putting forward, I'm understanding that the cleavage=ebil argument wasn't exactly a winner anyway. I think Bear was trying to be relatively tactful by the split, and probably feels like the effort that he put in was wasted.

But at least it's leading to an open discussion to make the contests more enjoyable for everyone.

So yes, my suggestion, in brief, is to make the distinctions between strains of the contest less about gender and more about substance.

[Phoenix]

The idea of grouping things differently could work, but allows a lot more cause for complaint and misinterpretation.

Also, can we please not allow 3 votes per poll?! It's silly, and unfair. One each is fine. Not all users (including myself)even use all 3, so it becomes confusing. Why was it 3 to start with? You don't get 3 votes when voting for anything else in life!

[Bear]

Its was 3 votes as several people complained that with the Cute contest they could only vote the once, so I sort to stop those complaints by giving people more votes to start with.

I think that probably splitting into catagories based on type of entery is more fair then a gender split... but then possibly we'd still get the gender arguement when pictures are involved in contests and guys not wanting to compete with girls.

[Phoenix]

Its was 3 votes as several people complained that with the Cute contest they could only vote the once, so I sort to stop those complaints by giving people more votes to start with.

Uh...but it kind of detracts from the entire point of having a poll, surely?

[Asaryu]

It depends on what you're using as a basis for your poll.

Some places will give preference voting, where you are able to assign points for various candidates, and the one with the highest number of points at the end will be the winner.

In all honesty, I think partly it is so that even if there is a clear winner, those who did not win aren't left feeling like crap after a landslide. No-one wants to get hurt over a game. And as you said, you can choose if you use all of your votes or not. It's entirely up to you.

[Dryope]

I've heard several different attempts at gender neutral pronouns:
Sie for s/he and hir for him/her/his/hers >_>; And Tey for s/he and...I don't remember what the rest where. It was in a book I read waaaaaaaaay back when I was in middle school, I think. I know there are others. And yeah, I know it isn't something well known, but we can always pick one and use it for forumites of unidentified or no gender? I know that doesn't help with contests. >_<

[Ithilion]

oh for frak's sake... guys, i think we are sliding into too PC zone here...

[Phoenix]

oh for frak's sake... guys, i think we are sliding into too PC zone here...

Which was entirely my point.

I know it isn't something well known, but we can always pick one and use it for forumites of unidentified or no gender? I know that doesn't help with contests. >_<

We can't. That's what started all this - Pneu's angry at us for having done so.

[Pneumonica]

We can't. That's what started all this - Pneu's angry at us for having done so.

I'm generally lurking these days, as people I care for are present and expressing their ideas and opinions here and I'm interested in reading them. I've stopped posting because I no longer feel welcome to post. I've no issue with gender basis in contests - it's a valid split, and I'm not concerned by it. I don't require anything special to be considered "included", and up until recently everything had gone smoothly. Indeed, had this contest been anounced as gender split, I wouldn't have entered.

What I'm angry about is Bear's decision to include me in a gender without my consent. Contrary to your opinion, Bear did not announce a gender split to the contest, and after I'd specifically (and without incident) bowed out of the previous contest for that reason he included me in a gender category without so much as asking me. I didn't enter a gender contest - he put me in one. Now, I have a few additional points of irritation, but that's the main gist of it - he chose for me, as you, Don, and several others continue to do. That's what makes me angry, and that's why I'm only skimming for posts from people I care about now and replying to PMs, and generally not posting. If there's an issue to be fixed, it's in there.

While we're on the subject, since you're so outspoken on the issue, why don't you just go ahead and call me a queer? You'll feel better for the honesty of it.

EDIT: As one last point, since D&E brought it up, I wasn't offended by him. Certainly not. And since he asked me to post, I broke down and did so. End of task.

[Phoenix]

While we're on the subject, since you're so outspoken on the issue, why don't you just go ahead and call me a queer? You'll feel better for the honesty of it.

Excuse me? Why should I care either way who you are attracted to?

[Asaryu]

Queer isn't a word used specifically for same-gender attractions. It's a catch-all phrase for all types of sexual deviancy. Besides, no matter which gender Pneu is attracted to, it's still going to be queer as it will never be the precise opposite of Pneu's own.

[Phoenix]

Queer isn't a word used specifically for same-gender attractions.

It is over here.