2019-07-01 The End

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Cortez
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Re: 2019-07-01 The End

Post by Cortez » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:54 am

Why is there so much lesbianism in these comics, to the point that even two characters who were clearly established as straight in one story both end up with female partners by the end of the comics' run?"
They wouldn't be the first Women to say that they thought they were straight only for them to discover that wasn't true later.

And Sandra being attracted to Cammi didn't come out of nowhere.

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True_Avery
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Re: 2019-07-01 The End

Post by True_Avery » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:27 am

Cortez wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:54 am
Why is there so much lesbianism in these comics, to the point that even two characters who were clearly established as straight in one story both end up with female partners by the end of the comics' run?"
They wouldn't be the first Women to say that they thought they were straight only for them to discover that wasn't true later.

And Sandra being attracted to Cammi didn't come out of nowhere.
To expand on this, I literally told people throughout High School I was bisexual/curious because I was uncomfortable with the hard label and didn't want to get ostracized by friends, especially online. I went to coming out groups for gay and trans people, and fun fact for some people here: the majority of the people who walked into that group were recently divorcees who admitted they were in deep denial about their own sexuality for a large number of reasons and were just now, some in their 50's, considering dating in lgbt circles. They loved their husbands/wives, but it took them a long time to reconcile what was friendship and love. My own mother is bisexual, a fact she didn't come to terms with until she was in her 30's - now that she and my dad are divorced, she is looking into the idea of maybe she's date a woman for the first time in her life. This is a woman in her 50's with a former husband and 2 kids. I hung out in LGBT clubs in high school and college, helped encourage a gay friend to start one at my tech college, and throughout my life a consistency I have found among all of these people is this process was never as consistent for them as it was for straight people.
Spidrift wrote:Sorry, TA, but a rushed and clumsy ending with a girl-girl romance is still a rushed and clumsy ending.
Wow. An ending we knew was coming soon, on a comic that was on an odd schedule, at around a time that had already been advertised and had to end to meet up with MA3's ending and the websites move to a new series and new characters got a rushed ending and stumbled some to the finish line. Bad writing! Does repeatedly saying that over the past 5 years make the writing better, give you 50 more pages, and magically make you more and more right every single time? Because you've been on a loop for as long as I've watched this forums. You genuinely don't seem to enjoy these series unless you just get your writing kicks by coming by a few times a week to drop what you consider a critique.

In your attempt to get a good gotcha on me you fail to have read that I readily admit this could of used an extra arc or two to resolve more, but I understand time didn't allow. Beating Eisu and everyone else down with that fact doesn't make that magically better - it is pretty much only ensuring that spending the time to give it the ending their schedule allowed wasn't worth it. I'd also like to mention their writing being "feeble" is your words, not mine - I'm the one who got what I got and yeah, maybe my standards are pretty low but over 15 years a great many webcomics I followed and loved ended up just having their author ghost the story and leave. I grew up on manga which is notorious for dropping series mid way through and giving me nothing. I've explicitly pointed out multiple times that I think more time would have helped, but they didn't have that time - you just want me to admit to you I think the writing is bad, and quite frankly spidrift I don't need to do that. I don't log on every week to post a single post on the forum saying something along the lines of "ugh another character?", "this wrestling storyline sucks, can we move on?", "this characterization isn't consistent with how they acted 6 years ago". All you? No, but its why I stopped reading weekly update threads.

And I certainly don't drop by on a finale page just to tell the authors, who worked out an ending in the allotted time to try to give a happy bow they could manage, that their writing and story is an incoherent mess. Guess what, I wasn't happy with how Game of Thrones ended - I didn't log onto any forums or tweet the writing to vent negativity at them like I'm the one tweet they'll see where they'll certainly turn their entire life around to fix. I happen to be an artist working on a portfolio and I know first hand it can be devastating to work on something for years at a time only to finally hit that last step to be told at the end that you suck. Is that life? Sure, but you're the one who's decided to rain on a parade that you can't fix. Anytime my own mother told me my own art sucked, was an incomplete mess, rushed, etc it certainly didn't encourage me to get up in the morning the next day to do my absolute best to impress her.

Sorry Spidrift, but sometimes "constructive criticism" and blunt force isn't kind or a service - something it is just being a dick. Especially when its a straight guy (who readily admits to being a bit sheltered) trying to explain to me how consistent bisexuality is in fiction and the real world. How many lgbt novels have you read? How many yuri and lgbt manga do you follow? How many lgbt book club discords are you in? How many real life lesbians and bisexual women who have shared their life story with you have you met and had long engaging conversation with? You ever been to a BDSM club or a queer BDSM meetup and talked to people who explained how their sexuality and tastes evolved even into their 60s and 70s?

How about a different route. Ever been to art school? Ever hung out with a bunch of artists who are self conscious about their work and had a complete breadown in class or in the halls? You ever seen a teacher or pupil absolute dig into a piece someone put time and effort in and seen the after effects? Seen a guy in charge of job placement and portfolio make a grown man weep on a couch during break? How about being accepted into a school you spent 7 years building a portfolio for only for your own mother to look at you and angry scream "you'll never be good enough to graduate this school". I'm sure you've experienced some of this in some context, so please connect dots in your own head as you will.

Am I saying criticism is bad and nobody can take it? Not at all, but you've taken it on yourself to explain to me that this is incoherent fanservice, rushed, feeble, and clumsy when the end is already here. There is a big different between yelling at clouds that Game of Thrones didn't end perhaps how you wanted, and telling an artist and writers practically to their face that their story was bollocks and you clearly understand what their characters are thinking more than them. Why you even read Pixie Trix comics is clearly beyond my comprehension, because when I didn't like Game of Thrones I stopped watching it seasons ago. When I stopped liking a manga or comic series, I dropped it and moved on.

Guess what? I wasn't a huge fan of how Eerie Cuties went because I really liked that series, but I understand why it ended and how it was overloading Giz with work alongside her newer comic gigs. I skipped Sticky Dilly Buns because the yaoi angle wasn't to my taste so I let other people enjoy it, which you and plenty of people here did and that is fantastic. Genuinely I am happy people here enjoyed Sticky Dilly Buns, but when it appeared I didn't show up in the opening or finale threads to calmly explain to them what I personally thought about a series I wasn't particularly into. I even genuinely feel bad in retrospect at some of the criticism I dropped on MA3, and when I personally realized thats what I was doing I lurked more because I felt I could just enjoy the series without berating Giz. There are elements to SotR's, MA3, etc that bother me to this day, some more serious than others, and I have addressed some issues I felt were important but I didn't show up at the end of MA3 to tell Giz her story and characters were a feeble mess.

You are not standing up for good writing and consistent characterization: you are actively being a dick and raining on people's fun and happiness at the ending by explaining to some fans, some of which are actually gay irl, why the writers stole your "obviously" straight girl character, who was -always- all over the place sexually, for cheap kicks and fanservice because we are being catered to somehow. That is some entitled, frankly mean reasoning and I honestly don't understand what possesses you to casually walk through these forums and be so confidently dickish.

I've known the ending has been coming around this time since it was announced like, last year - I actually thought it was going to end much sooner when she was flown out of Paris. I was afraid for a number of weeks that it would just be announced the series was canceled. Frankly, I measured my expectations which doesn't make me a consumer of cheap media and "poor taste" - it makes me an adult who's been consuming different media for nearly 30 years and understands, especially as someone inside the art industry, that sometimes you don't always get what you want. But I have never gotten into an authors face and told them their work just sucks, is feeble and clumsy - that kind of criticism of a coworker would get me FIRED, and criticizing someone lower than me like that would put a black mark on my record.

Walking into this thread and smack talking the producers at the end credits with accusations of laziness and catering reeks of just some incredibly bad manners. You know no moderators are going to call you out, you know everyone who really disliked you left or blocked you years ago, and you know being behind a keyboard means you are shielded from whatever consequence there is for being just nasty and mean to the people who help make this forum run and make the content you consume, then you basically insinuate that I'm giving this all a pass and letting "feeble" and "incoherent" writing go because I'm the audience. Way to be brave.
Spidrift wrote:Tangential to that, somebody asked "Why is there so much lesbianism in these comics, to the point that even two characters who were clearly established as straight in one story both end up with female partners by the end of the comics' run?" (or words to that effect); and if you can offer a convincing explanation for that which doesn't boil down to "Fanservice", please do. Like I said, nothing wrong with fanservice, but let's not pretend that's not what it is.
Real-life experience, which I'll note you readily admit to lacking by "maybe I've lived a sheltered life". I know we've had this conversation before, but I'll reiterate: There are several gay people in this thread trying to explain to you that there is more to sexuality than what is blatantly in front of you, and you've decided to use a defense of bad writing to try to explain to me why nobody's sexuality can change over time, suddenly, or even for specific people. For your information I practically dated at least 2 girls who identified as Straight, told me they were primarily Straight, and would go so far as to say they were primarily hetero-romantic; that didn't stop them. I have quite literally met men and women who regularly sleep, make out with, etc with people of the same sex who will bond faced tell you to your face they are straight and only break that for some people. Is there some fluidity in this? Some denial? Some baggage they are bringing with them?

Is there some fanserviced involved? Yeah, there is. The story is also written and overlooked by the same writers, producers, editors and I highly doubt Giz got outranked on SotR's to completely 180 Sandra's character

So, since you seem insistent that I am just not seeing how clearly messy this all is, how about I break down what I see so we can clear some things up between our opinions:

Sandra since page one has been pretty all over:
http://www.ma3comic.com/strips-ma3/Accessories
http://www.ma3comic.com/strips-ma3/Really_out_of_it

But what her characterization in MA3 does is clearly state one thing I think is important that I think we can both agree with: Sandra's sexuality, no alcohol, is very male-focused. She had boyfriends, she tried a date with Didi that didn't work out, and the conclusion made was she was straight and had boundary issues. Lets give this a reasonable jab and say yes, this is correct for the time: Sandra likes men primarily. This is something I am completely willing to concede, and she identifies at straight pretty much through her tenure at MA3 before moving onto SotR

This is where I think it actually gets more complicated simultaneously and less. Sandra's sexuality stays consistent with this line of thinking for about 2 and a half years, with multiple hanging outs of naked girls, photo shoots, showers, hangouts, etc. She is consistent with her portrayal at the end of MA between her and Pierre, her and Gary, and some flirting with other ancillary male characters. She has shown no interest in galloping around girls until the nightclub arc happens and she gets plastered with Cammi.

http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... _sexydance
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... _pure_sexy
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... e_a_lesson

This is the first return of drunk, gropey, bad boundaries Sandra after 2 and a half years dated strips, we all know from MA3 that Sandra does weird stuff when she's drunk. In MA3 it usually involved a black out and then a wacky story afterwards, but with the cast of SotR's being much more female heavy her antics get thrown at Cammi and the two female models she likes the boobs of. Can be tossed up to Sandra being drunk, crazy, low inhibitions, and at the very most Sandra is not against some girl groping for fun if she lets all her hair down. Moving on, since this is still pretty consistent with her, I think. - 15 or so strips later she is in bed with Pierre again, so shes still dating man and her sexual focus is still men.

The next time this gets tested is 6 months later when Sandra is moving out of her apartment:
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... iful_Mario
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... his_muscle
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips-sotr/Sweaty_work
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... e_diamonds
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... _flashback
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... freckles_2
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... _right_now
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips-sotr/Bad_Sandra
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... difference
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... ill_got_it
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... r_all_this

This little arc is important for a reason that actually works for both of us, in my opinion: Sandra is still being largely characterized the same. She is just unf girl boobs must get in there; this is a similar situation to when Sandra and Didi showered together - Sandra has no hangups about jumping into a shower with another woman and doing each other's hair. She is still largely straight, with a boyfriend, with low MA3 boundaries for nudity and contact.

The thing that makes this arc different than her and Didi is a big thing in my opinion: Didi and Sandra never liked each other that much. I cannot stress enough how important this is: Didi and Sandra became "girlfriends" because they were basically bored and a tad experimental, and were basically just friends that were miss reading each other's signs. They didn't love each other, they never genuinely flirted, and they hopped into bed hoping the carnal body lust would take over but emotionally neither had any investment into what was going on. This says a couple things: Didi and Sandra were both open enough in their sexuality even in their supposed "straight confirmation" period I keep hearing so much about that they were open to getting naked and doing some light foreplay that went nowhere. It isn't a 100% either side, but its certainly not something you just randomly fall into. Second: Didi's arc was always less about her carnal lust and more she needed to emotionally bond with her partner, which she had no strong feelings towards Sandra for - essentially on Didi's side it was dead from the start and awkward because she was pushing too hard for something she wasn't invested in; a fact proven by her orgasm arc.

Third, and important for this conversation, Sandra didn't respond to Didi's half hearted attempts, but DID respond to Cammi's genuine attempts at flirting. She and Didi were friends, but they lazily and half hearted tried out each other with no commitment. Cammi is the first female member of any of the cast to take a vested interest and flirt with Sandra in a way Sandra responded to, because Cammi meant it and was very serious and Sandra knew she was very serious. Didi was always a question mark in the air, but Cammi was a certainty, an option, and this is exactly where this is not only being set up and called out, but this is a theme throughout the rest of the comic: Sandra when she isn't drunk has no active drive to seek women or response to half heated attempts from women, but when she is sober she does respond to a direct invitation and direct motives. I know this might be a little hard to wrap heads around, but you would be amazed how many gay/bi/curious people find out this way by having a direct confrontation instead of like, 13 year old finding porn on google realizations of sexuality. I know at least 3 gay men who had no good grasp on their sexuality until their first boyfriend directly asked them out and opened up the possibility. Hell, even my very straight sister has told me that if a girl she found particularly attractive asked her out she would seriously consider it if she was single - she just has a boyfriend right now, and no girl has seriously asked her yet. But to her, a straight identifying women, she would give it a shot if the girl was very direct and honest about it.

Next up, 3 months later we have her dropping by a lesbian club:
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... g_yourself
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... s_Ruuuuule
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... st_peppers
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips-sotr/My_catspaw
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips-sotr/Squishyyyyy

To the return of Drunk Sandra being touchy feely and it happening to be in a place that largely just has women. So, I think if men were around she would be just as frisky with them - we know this from MA3, so this is something I think is perfectly agreeable. But this brings me back to my prior point about Cammi - Sandra responds to women if they come onto her strong. Anette comes onto her strong, a point Aaina even points out specifically - so Sandra comes right back at her just as strong with her old school crazy MA3 drunk blackout sex proposition. This is still consistent with her as a character - she gets gropey with anyone that is around when she is plastered, but drunk or sober she reacts stronger to women who are very up front and brazen with her. You can call that Drunk Sandra just being gag Drunk, but in general being Drunk isn't a magic condition that switches your soul out for another person; this is just Sandra with lower inhibitions, and her she is grinding her ass into another girl who is coming onto her as strong as Cammi did in the party arc. After this, sober Sandra goes right back to antics with male characters. Again, as far as the writing goes, she is consistently following a pattern here.

Bonus of drunk Sandra being drunk Sandra again around boobs:
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... mber_party

A bit flirt with Cammi, but again Sandra, joking or not, responds to Cammi if she is being very direct:
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... tty_heated

Beach scene where Sandra has her first drunk moment where she isn't falling over herself, but is her first real direct flirt back at Cammi after a day hanging out with her:
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... ert_island
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... the_shower
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... _red_flags
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... n_marriage
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... of_alcohol

The direct line to her drinking was she "needed the courage to" ask Cammi out because she has been thinking about the direct flirting Cammi has been doing, especially the shower scene. At this point she still hasn't really shown sober or direct interest in women, but has mentioned a few times up till now and on this moment that Cammi in particular has been on her mind. Why? Because Cammi is the women consistently showing very direct interest, and has been open about it. Sandra is sober enough to to remember that, to come up with a lie, and flirt back. She then admits, while drunk, that she actually did find Cammi sexually attractive after the flirting in the shower - while sober (hence the cold shower afterwards) - and she is coherent enough to admit that while with Pierre her mind has been trailing off back to Cammi because Cammi is chasing her, while with Pierre Sandra started their relationship by chasing him. I cannot over emphasize how important that point actually is and why it ties together what looks like a very confused and muddled sexuality - Sandra chases men, consistently, but Cammi is boldly chasing her and that is both new to Sandra on a number of fronts. Sandra knows she is pretty - she is a darn model - and she knows she can get boyfriends which is why she almost immediately got Pierre when she thought he was hot. She knows she can get men. Her only other experience with women was with Didi, in a mock relationship neither of them was chasing or was invested in. Cammi is invested in her, is chasing her, is making it very clear, and Sandra is responding to that in some ways even she is confused and muddled about - its fuzzy because of course it is. Right back to clockwork, she sobers up and flirts with some of the male cast again. This is a consistent pattern being made - I call that consistency, not feeble writing.

Now, we skip 8 months dated ahead to probably the most important panel in this and the revelation moment that Sandra does retain some of her drunk state:
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... -is-not-me
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... hit-it-off
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... bian-lover
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... -true-love
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... -in-mumbai

I wont post the whole arc, but this is the point where Sober Sandra and Drunk Sandra meet, and is the realization point that Sandra is jealous and had Cammi on her mind. She lies, cheats, steals, and becomes a panicy, bad person until she is kicked out of Paris because she basically had a mental breakdown between her feelings for Pierre, and her feelings for Cammi - which are now explicitly out in the open and that jealousy is out in full force when she is stone cold sober which is right back to the shower scene when they have their first major flirt. She is actively disappointed Cammi is taken, lies about a relationship with another woman and kisses her full on the mouth just to get a rise out of Cammi. At this point her feelings toward Cammi have hit a circle, as has her pretty physical relationship with Pierre whom she had initially been chasing. This is theorycraft, but I always got the sense that Sandra loved the sex with Pierre but she rarely talked about him and he was always mostly in the background, much like her relationship with matt - she liked the sex, she chased them and they jumped back easily, and it was largely effortless for her. Cammi, in turn, chased her and was very open about not only the sex but a serious, long term relationship - a fact Sandra is well aware of. Maybe my straight-dar is broken, but Pierre always felt like a fuck buddy like Matt that she could bounce back from because she did consistently get boyfriends and was hot enough to have fun flirting with a great deal of the male case, from Pierre to matt to gary, alex, and so on.

The whole thing comes tumbling down: her relationship with Pierre ends, her modeling career ends, she drops off from Cammi after Cammi feels she was lied to, and she is kicked out of Paris as her life goes into a spiral right back to being a waitress. This is where I think thematically this works: Sandra at this point now has to rebuild herself from the ground up, and her montage is practically retracing her steps through MA3 and SotRs, except this time she is a very active participant and rebuilding herself by her own hands from what she has learned, a point she even makes. She gets into a comfortable job, at a comfortable position, and steadies her life and achieves smooth sailing for the first time we've seen in her character. This arc culminates in one thing: Sandra is ready for an actually serious, long term relationship with someone that, to her, feels invested.

It was a montage, but Sandra's character did change in a few subtle ways in the meantime because I personally think her realization with Cammi opened her up more, and I use this as my evidence:
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... ant-return

Sandra openly having a cheeky flirt for fun at Ingrid while stone cold sober, the first time in which we've really seen her have some fun like this. The arc then ends, her completely of the mind that Cammi is long gone and she is back to her life and job back in Canada. She doesn't search out Cammi directly, but goes to find her when she is given the ticket to Monte Carlo. She then says exactly what my point above is: She is at a stable, comfortable, nonvolatile point in her life where she can be open with herself without being an alcoholic. This is a point I think is forgotten a lot, but Sandra has been a depressed, stressed out alcoholic nearly since she first arrived. Between being a waitress, trying to get a modeling job, the stressful ups and downs of getting and losing gigs, what Sandra has always done is drown all that out in massive amount of alcohol and then let loose where she has an abnormally large amount of fun. Not that she is a horribly depressing person, but there have been quiet moments in the series, some self reflection, and this last acknowledgement that she is now in a stable enough place in her life where she can talk openly while being sober - something that as I mention above has been hinted at for years. She doubles down on the fact that even with Pierre she was thinking of Cammi, something that has been very clearly set up in dialogue both sober and drunk.

Sandra then finally says she is not great with categories, bi or straight, and likes Cammi. This has been consistently set up - she isn't an outright lesbian, she is confused herself on how bisexual she is, but she has consistently shown interest in women who come onto her hard both sober and drunk. Her attempt with Didi failed because neither had their heart in it, and she never went out crazy to randomly date a bunch of different women - Cammi was on her mind because Sandra is sexually fluid enough to get a rise out of Cammi's direct flirting. This is not uncommon with plenty of people, across the entire sexual spectrum - I know people who identify with being Ace who have only been sexually attracted to their one partner. I know men and women who have and do identify with one sexuality, but date someone against that notion because that one person in particular hit their fancy. Hell, that is practically my own mother who finds she is wildly into women but found something she really liked in my own father.

My point is the point that has been repeated in this forum quite a lot - this is not out of nowhere, this is not random fanservice just stapled at the end, this is an arc that has been in the making literally for years. Yes, a couple more arcs could of fleshed them out more but its not like absolutely nothing happened up to this point. Sandra for all purposes can call herself Straight or not if she wants, because your initial read of her is still very close: she likes men, she still finds men attractive, she didn't just flush her sexuality down the toilet randomly. Cammi in particular was the girl that got under her skin, while she consistently still liked men and flirted with women while blasted drunk.

There has been a consistent pattern; consistent sober and drunk portrayals and a build up to the drunk sandra appearing more and more in sober sandra to counteract criticism that this was only because she was drunk, and alcohol is somehow magic gay juice. She always came on stronger to women if they initiated it, and she liked to chase men because she could. She got to a stable point in her life where the idea of a long term relationship with someone she felt really felt a lot back was an option, and not just a fuck buddy she jumped on in the back of a bakery - Cammi happened to be the person in her life she knew was interested in the long haul, moving with her, supporting her work, and even maybe an option for marriage later. She just happened to be sexually fluid enough for Cammi's directness to get to her.

So no, I don't think this ending was feeble, clumsy, overly rushed incoherent mess. I just reread the entire series and say that an extra arc or two would have helped, but found it a very consistent read. Some characters drop away, which is a real shame and it is sad a few just entirely disappeared randomly, but Sandra has had a long arc that has been played out in a consistent build and ends with her becoming more independent and not needing the constant stress and ups and down of the MA3-verse drama - while short and quick, her getting control of her life means there isn't a whole lot more to say. She is stable, she is happy and successful, and she reciprocated someone who was putting effort into her. You may find that trite and feeble, but I find SotR's to be a fun story that ended how it always was going to because unlike you I knew what they were setting up ever since Sandra walked away from that shower with Cammi questioning if she should of gone further. That was 5 years ago. This was not out of the blue which is why I find it so obnoxious that you're calling out a hard working artist and writer for cheapening you out of a character that they earned the ending for with years of prior setup.

There is something constructive to said of missing side characters that I miss and wish weren't just disappeared due to constraints, some of who's absence just feels weird, but I take umbrage with the idea this ending is a lesbian cash in that was not set up at all.

As a side note, Sandra hung out with these people perhaps for years and made friends, and its apparently incoherent gibbish that she wouldn't keep consistent contact with all of them over the internet. For your information you know it all, I went to school with people I thought were super cool and friendly, met a ton of people, made a lot of contacts, and upon graduating work and life got in the way for ALL of us and I only now, a full year later have been trying to get once very close friends together that hung out every day to talk again. I've not seen or talked to some of these people in a year, and it is the same case for many of them. This was a class that went through over 70 classes together, 6 classes a week for 3 years solid no breaks and hung out after school every single day, went to bars, some of them dated, and so on and so forth. Most of them have not talked for a year once life go hot. It is entirely believable to me that Sandra got busy with life, focused, and was perhaps depressed about being kicked out so she sheltered herself to focus on herself and her life before she felt healthy and stable enough to make contacts again - she even makes a point of wanting to make a boom with how much better she has gotten -without- them. So your judgement that Dave just ignored reality to write a story is once again a reminder that maybe you are pulling accusations out of thin air just so you can make a cruel stab at his writing ability because there was obviously a way you could of phrased that to actually be constructive and not just to tear them down in a completely unnecessary manner.

So no, you don't get me admitting "it's a bit feeble". You get me telling you that I think you are incredibly judgemental and you are very high on yourself to explain to someone with experience in this how clearly because a woman identified as something at one point in her life must obviously mean that is locked in forever and to change that is somehow a malicious use of bad writing for fanservice. I read my interpretation of the story and I came away happy with a goodbye message and you walked in with some "utter effing gibberish" and making up intentions from thin air about how the writers and artist didn't actually care enough to write a good story and were just jerking you along for convenience.

That is fucking dickish.
Play Kindred Spirits on the Roof! Play Starlight Vega! Play Ladykiller in a Bind!

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Valkog
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Re: 2019-07-01 The End

Post by Valkog » Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:47 pm

Hey, let it all out. No need to hold back like this.
**== **== **== **==

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Cortez
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Re: 2019-07-01 The End

Post by Cortez » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:00 pm

Sandra also had no problem flirting with Anette when they met up again.

http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... oincidence
Last edited by Cortez on Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Lokitsu
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Re: 2019-07-01 The End

Post by Lokitsu » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:50 am

:) Wow, that's a post! T_A your research was really impressive. The shower arc would've won me over if I wasn't already happy with the pairing. But now I realize that Sandra/Cammie was likely the intended romance from the start.
I'm not sure exactly when the forum became angry (myself included) although I'd guess it combusted with the issues in DC. I've heard references to flame wars and massive bans in the early days of MA3 but I wasn't around, so I'm not sure if we've always been this dickish. You're right though, it's clearly accomplished nothing other than to make the creators feel bad and give them zero reason to keep producing content.
It's been a crappy independence day for me (unrelated to any of this), so I'm going to go to bed and worry about what to do next tomorrow.
Thank you True_Avery :)

JoybuzzerX
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Re: 2019-07-01 The End

Post by JoybuzzerX » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:30 am

As someone who wasn't for all Female/female couples (like quite a few here...and I still feel Zii and Didi make no sense what so ever and came out of nothing more than Zii wanting Didi for a notch on her belt), I wanted Sandra and Cammi, and it looked to make sense that they would.

The problem is all the me3 verse comics have come to sudden stops. They didn't feel like they got to that place at the right pace, because it feels like (and likely did) just decide to end the comic and didn't want to put the needed comics into it.

JoybuzzerX
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Re: 2019-07-01 The End

Post by JoybuzzerX » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:34 am

True_Avery wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:27 am
So no, you don't get me admitting "it's a bit feeble". You get me telling you that I think you are incredibly judgemental and you are very high on yourself to explain to someone with experience in this how clearly because a woman identified as something at one point in her life must obviously mean that is locked in forever and to change that is somehow a malicious use of bad writing for fanservice. I read my interpretation of the story and I came away happy with a goodbye message and you walked in with some "utter effing gibberish" and making up intentions from thin air about how the writers and artist didn't actually care enough to write a good story and were just jerking you along for convenience.
The only problem I see with this whole argument, is you're comparing real life people to fictional people. In a work of fiction, you need to have things worked up to a logical sense.

Let's take any gay female character in the comic. Any of the women only women. And suddenly, end the comic with them in love with and dating a man.

You'd be all "WTF?!" and not going, "Yeah. These things happen. Just because you identify as a lesbian, doesn't mean you stay one."

While I feel there may have been some mixed messages with Sandra and Didi storyline, I felt they fixed it with Sandra and Cammy and a drunk Sandra. Then rushed getting them together.

Others may not have seen it at all. The writing was rushed.

Itrogash
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Re: 2019-07-01 The End

Post by Itrogash » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:43 am

Spidrift wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:46 pm
~snip~
Well, I wanted to make a detailed analysis to rebuke this post but T_A made it way better than I could ever hope to do. I'm just going to add to some of points.
True_Avery wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:27 am

The thing that makes this arc different than her and Didi is a big thing in my opinion: Didi and Sandra never liked each other that much. I cannot stress enough how important this is: Didi and Sandra became "girlfriends" because they were basically bored and a tad experimental, and were basically just friends that were miss reading each other's signs. They didn't love each other, they never genuinely flirted, and they hopped into bed hoping the carnal body lust would take over but emotionally neither had any investment into what was going on. This says a couple things: Didi and Sandra were both open enough in their sexuality even in their supposed "straight confirmation" period I keep hearing so much about that they were open to getting naked and doing some light foreplay that went nowhere. It isn't a 100% either side, but its certainly not something you just randomly fall into. Second: Didi's arc was always less about her carnal lust and more she needed to emotionally bond with her partner, which she had no strong feelings towards Sandra for - essentially on Didi's side it was dead from the start and awkward because she was pushing too hard for something she wasn't invested in; a fact proven by her orgasm arc.

To add to this point, Sandra decided to go with DiDi jus because Matt convinced her to do so. This "date" was a total clusterfuck and nothing could right with it. This insistence that both of them could draw any lasting conclusion regarding their sexuality after this encounter is really silly.
Granted, writers could leave it at them being straight at this point, sure. But the fact they didn't is by no means a contradiction. This event left a very open ending, they could go either way with it.
I wont post the whole arc, but this is the point where Sober Sandra and Drunk Sandra meet

I'm gonna repeat myself, but this happened a bit earlier. I like bringing up this bonus comic because it nicely ties in Sandra's arc - it shows her finally confronting her issues and experiences and making a choice. It's not, as Spidrift tries to say, a retcon, it was a conclusion of all past Sandra's encounters, and it's a point where she consciously starts to pursuit Cammi. After this point we start to see change in Sandra's behavior, like with trying to get with Cammi by herself on the island ot being more open to flirting with girls while sober. That's why I don't see why people say this was inconsistency. We see everything following normal cause and reaction sequence. There is nothing inconsistent here.

It was a montage, but Sandra's character did change in a few subtle ways in the meantime because I personally think her realization with Cammi opened her up more, and I use this as my evidence:
http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... ant-return
*Pursuit - Cornered* theme starts playing.

In all seriousness, I did think this was significant. Most of forum members however dismissed it as a comedy bit at the time. I'm starting to think this cluelesness to signs is why people think the ending was out of nowhere.

JoybuzzerX
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Re: 2019-07-01 The End

Post by JoybuzzerX » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:59 pm

I don't feel the bonus comic helps anything, as it's a bonus comic. If they're not going to release them, people can't judge the story given by them.

As someone who supports a few (including brick and store bought ones), just another dollar adds up. :p

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LarsenSan
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Re: 2019-07-01 The End

Post by LarsenSan » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:00 am

JoybuzzerX wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:34 am
True_Avery wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:27 am
So no, you don't get me admitting "it's a bit feeble". You get me telling you that I think you are incredibly judgemental and you are very high on yourself to explain to someone with experience in this how clearly because a woman identified as something at one point in her life must obviously mean that is locked in forever and to change that is somehow a malicious use of bad writing for fanservice. I read my interpretation of the story and I came away happy with a goodbye message and you walked in with some "utter effing gibberish" and making up intentions from thin air about how the writers and artist didn't actually care enough to write a good story and were just jerking you along for convenience.
The only problem I see with this whole argument, is you're comparing real life people to fictional people. In a work of fiction, you need to have things worked up to a logical sense.

Let's take any gay female character in the comic. Any of the women only women. And suddenly, end the comic with them in love with and dating a man.

You'd be all "WTF?!" and not going, "Yeah. These things happen. Just because you identify as a lesbian, doesn't mean you stay one."

While I feel there may have been some mixed messages with Sandra and Didi storyline, I felt they fixed it with Sandra and Cammy and a drunk Sandra. Then rushed getting them together.

Others may not have seen it at all. The writing was rushed.
Yeah, you nailed it pretty well. No matter how much people want to make excuses, the ending was rushed and so was Sandra/Cammi. It's not as bad as the Bumblebee pairing in RWBY but close enough.

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vampire hunter D
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Re: 2019-07-01 The End

Post by vampire hunter D » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:48 am

so you not only didn't read this comic you also didn't watch any of RWBY?
Pointless arguing is one of the three pillars upon which the Internet is built. The other two are of course cat pictures and porn.

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Cortez
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Re: 2019-07-01 The End

Post by Cortez » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:15 am

Yeah, because both didn't come out of nowhere.

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ven
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Re: 2019-07-01 The End

Post by ven » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:22 am

JoybuzzerX wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:34 am

The only problem I see with this whole argument, is you're comparing real life people to fictional people. In a work of fiction, you need to have things worked up to a logical sense.

Let's take any gay female character in the comic. Any of the women only women. And suddenly, end the comic with them in love with and dating a man.

You'd be all "WTF?!" and not going, "Yeah. These things happen. Just because you identify as a lesbian, doesn't mean you stay one."

While I feel there may have been some mixed messages with Sandra and Didi storyline, I felt they fixed it with Sandra and Cammy and a drunk Sandra. Then rushed getting them together.

Others may not have seen it at all. The writing was rushed.
Yeah, far closer to reality than that wall of text trying to rationalize why this outcome was such a logical and hinted thing and we should all have known it. No, I never saw that coming, the interactions between Cammie and Sandra was never really all that meaningful for me, I really thought all those shenanigans have been there for the sake of comedy. I really don't want to overanalyse these things, and you really shouldn't have to in a comedy comic.

I mean, yeah that Sandra-Pierre thing didn't go anywhere, that much was clear and Sandra at least beeing bi was kind of a given, but this ending, running into Cammie because of a arranged detour after over a year of not seeing each other is something between a WTF-moment, and a whatever-moment.

Didn't see it coming, don't care about it either way. Wrapping things up as fast as you can will result in something like this. If people out there like it and post that much to prove it like True_Avery, good for you I guess.
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odalzara
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Re: 2019-07-01 The End

Post by odalzara » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:17 am

This ending reminds me of the "korra was gay all along" affair from the avatar sequel

JoybuzzerX
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Re: 2019-07-01 The End

Post by JoybuzzerX » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:24 pm

vampire hunter D wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:48 am
so you not only didn't read this comic you also didn't watch any of RWBY?
As someone who does watch RWBY, but haven't caught valume 6 yet (i'm just waiting for it to come out so I can watch it) , I can say, from what I've read they aren't a couple yet, but unless things have changed, they haven't shown signs of being lesbians other than fan desire (because gotta have girl girl) and the VAs spouting they like the idea.

And doing a quick check they haven't even said they were. Personally I was for Black Sun, which Blake did seem to be into and Yang had up to volume 5 only ever shown interest in the boys.

We'll see how that goes later, I'm just glad I hear RWBY volume 6 is an improvement :)

I say all this, in the round about way of saying, if RWBY has shown it, it's gotta be the most contrived wanting of the pairing by shippers unless it's outright stated by the characters in volume 6. Yes people, girls can just be friends.

And Sandra has shown obvious jealousy and desire for Cammi, and Cammi the same for Sandra, which means it didn't come out of no where.

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