2018-07-03 Careless skinny-dipping

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cheshire86
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Re: 2018-07-03 Careless skinny-dipping

Post by cheshire86 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:57 pm

Spidrift wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:12 am
the "Model" label there is superfluous. (Dave should trust the readers more than that.)
I dunno, it felt like an old trope from cartoons, like the beginning of Road Runner? Coyote: Vulgarius Zoomicus. We knew it was the Coyote, but they made a funny just the same. So maybe this was sort of like "Model: Hoistus Petardus" ;)

It also reminded me of this: http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... yyyyyyyyyy

dmra
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Re: 2018-07-03 Careless skinny-dipping

Post by dmra » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:05 pm

Just for context and information. Most of the world -including Canada and most of Europe - allow cousins to marry. America is pretty complicated with out any obvious pattern to which states do allow it, restrict it or ban it outright.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_ma ... s_by_state

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brasca
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Re: 2018-07-03 Careless skinny-dipping

Post by brasca » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:19 pm

Derfman wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:47 am
Once again, cousins are not considered incest in most of the world. Americans need to get over themselves and stop thinking the world bows to their prudish views. Even in the US of A many states have very lax laws regarding cousin relationships. H.G. Wells, Edgar Allen Poe, Charles Darwin and even Albert Einstein were married to their cousins.
Strangely enough the places in America where cousin marriage isn't considered taboo are also some of the most prudish... and religious.

As long as they're consenting adults who aren't producing horribly inbred children I could care less.

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christopheftw
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Re: 2018-07-03 Careless skinny-dipping

Post by christopheftw » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:43 pm

Forlorn Pierre is forlorn.

He didn’t really seem the jealous type earlier but everyone has limits. Clearly he was a bit too stable and tame for Sandra. Hopefully he’ll find a nice sweet girl not in the comic and be more attentive to her.

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rogermart
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Re: 2018-07-03 Careless skinny-dipping

Post by rogermart » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:18 pm

cheshire86 wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:57 pm
Spidrift wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:12 am
the "Model" label there is superfluous. (Dave should trust the readers more than that.)
I dunno, it felt like an old trope from cartoons, like the beginning of Road Runner? Coyote: Vulgarius Zoomicus. We knew it was the Coyote, but they made a funny just the same. So maybe this was sort of like "Model: Hoistus Petardus" ;)

It also reminded me of this: http://www.sandraontherocks.com/strips- ... yyyyyyyyyy
Being from Latin America, I watched those cartoons with a voice in Spanish that read the labels... That voice appeared in my head as soon as I read this.
That's what i do... i drink and i know things...

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Castamir
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Re: 2018-07-03 Careless skinny-dipping

Post by Castamir » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:43 am

Cousin marriage is less harmful than that between full siblings, but it still has heavily detrimental effect. Much lower intelligence (10 IQ points is a lot), lower height, strength, permanent genetic defects, etc. That worldwide 10% of marriages is between first or second cousins doesn't make such practice any better.
I hate dancing, but for your grave I can make an exception.

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Mandy
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Re: 2018-07-03 Careless skinny-dipping

Post by Mandy » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:35 am

Note that the article that you've sited states that there's a positive correlation between incest and socioeconomic status in those communities. That indicates to me that richer, more influential people there want to keep their wealth and infuence in the family so they systematically have cousins coupled together generation after generation.

Cousin marrying isn't a huge deal so long as a family doesn't make a habit of it. Hybrid vigor is a thing, and it would be a bit more likely that recessive genes would get coupled in cousin marriages, but its not so big of a deal that the taboo should be as extreme as it is in the US.

The correlation Americans end up drawing is incest with small communities that end up inbreeding often. Modern example: the amish have a lot more genetic defects than the general population, because they keep their marriages within their community. (The fact that maple syrup urine disease is a thing disturbs me)

If occasional cousin marriages were a huge deal, the human race at large wouldn't be overpopulating quite so extraordinarily.

Also, I'm American... A bit embarassed about it due to the political climate and just generally how self centered US society tends to make people...but yeah.

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Castamir
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Re: 2018-07-03 Careless skinny-dipping

Post by Castamir » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:59 pm

Mandy wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:35 am
Note that the article that you've sited states that there's a positive correlation between incest and socioeconomic status in those communities. That indicates to me that richer, more influential people there want to keep their wealth and infuence in the family so they systematically have cousins coupled together generation after generation.
This is a cultural policy that depends on your parent's wealth not yours, so there's no causal link. To the contrary, this diminishes the descendants' capabilities (although rich people don't need to be very smart to keep being rich).

A more extreme example: pharaohs in ancient Egypt practiced incest and clocked 31 dynasties within 2800 years, emperors of Japan do not and have an unbroken line for 2678 years (both Manetho and Kojiki are untrustworthy/legendary but after the first several centuries both are corroborated by better sources). European royalty kept to a small closed group, and also exhibited frequent defects and short dynastic lines.
If occasional cousin marriages were a huge deal, the human race at large wouldn't be overpopulating quite so extraordinarily.
By the same logic, drinking alcohol during pregnancy isn't a huge deal, because most such kids are born without apparent issues, and it was prevalent for thousands of years well until 20th century.
I hate dancing, but for your grave I can make an exception.

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Mandy
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Re: 2018-07-03 Careless skinny-dipping

Post by Mandy » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:18 am

If we're not going to run around barring people with dominant genetic disorders from reproducing, I don't really see why we should insert ourselves into the sexual lives of cousin couples. Anyone with a dominant genetic disorder has a 50/50 chance of passing the disease along to their children; that's substantially more likely than the occasional cousin marriage is to cause substantial issues with offspring.

I highlighted the positive correlation with wealth and cousin marrying, because monarchs and nobles have long been known to want to keep wealth and influence in the family. I was saying that your article speaks volumes on the negative impact of incest being familial tradition. It says very little about the impact of single, rare instances of cousin marrying.

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Derfman
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Re: 2018-07-03 Careless skinny-dipping

Post by Derfman » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:09 am

brasca wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:19 pm

Strangely enough the places in America where cousin marriage isn't considered taboo are also some of the most prudish... and religious.

As long as they're consenting adults who aren't producing horribly inbred children I could care less.
Actually, out of the four most populous states, first cousin marriages are allowed in California, New York and Florida while Texas does not allow it. So there is no real pattern based on either religious or conservative views. Utah, probably the most religious state, allows it only if one of the couple is proven infertile.

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brasca
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Re: 2018-07-03 Careless skinny-dipping

Post by brasca » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:32 am

Well isn't that something although I had Alabama in mind and I was right about that. And yet it's banned in neighboring Mississippi.

That being said I don't know if Eloise envisions marrying Pierre which would be extremely awkward when it comes to inviting the extended family. I think it's just sexual relations she's after which is permitted in most American states.

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Spidrift
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Re: 2018-07-03 Careless skinny-dipping

Post by Spidrift » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:40 am

Does that mean that cousins who want to get hitched in, say, Texas, would skip the state line to a state with different laws? Or is that covered by one of those weird federal Transporting A Woman Across A State Line For Immoral Purposes laws?

European royalty and aristocracy mostly formed a large enough gene pool that inbreeding wasn’t actually a huge issue there, but for one family who did get a bit carried away, google “Hapsburg jaw”. But at least nobles and kings could travel a bit; peasants were largely stuck at home. If you ban all sorts of cousin narriage out to second and third cousins, you could get a real problem in old-style country villages that there’d be nobody around who you legally could marry. Hence the claim that the invention of the bicycle may have saved parts of Europe from genetic implosion...
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OldBrit
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Re: 2018-07-03 Careless skinny-dipping

Post by OldBrit » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:17 am

About short dynastic lines: I don't know about ancient Egypt, but the English royal dynasty name changed every time descent passed through a female. eg Henry II (Plantagenet) was the grandson of Henry I (Norman), with the Empress Matilda in between; James I (Stuart) was great-great-grandson of Henry VII (Tudor), and of Edward IV(Plantagenet).
Really, it's just one dynasty back to William I.

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Spidrift
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Re: 2018-07-03 Careless skinny-dipping

Post by Spidrift » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:25 am

Ancient Egypt was a clusterfuck, with a lot of incest in the "fuck" part -- and I mean proper brother/sister incest, none of this half-baked wimpy cousin-marriage nonsense. But then, it was also a civilisation that kept going for 2,800 years, albeit with the occasional foreign incursion, so maybe they were getting something right. (For the correct value of "right".)
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Storm-forge mystique
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Re: 2018-07-03 Careless skinny-dipping

Post by Storm-forge mystique » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:09 pm

Derfman wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:09 am
Actually, out of the four most populous states, first cousin marriages are allowed in California, New York and Florida while Texas does not allow it. So there is no real pattern based on either religious or conservative views. Utah, probably the most religious state, allows it only if one of the couple is proven infertile.
Those are places where it's legal, but in the population centers of the first, and at least the largest of the second, at least among the dominant culture, it's very, very taboo, really less for any prudish or genetic reason than because it's associated with the people brasca mentions. Admit to sex with a cousin in those places, probably the first response you get won't be "gross" or "scum," it'll be someone humming Dueling Banjos.

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