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Spidrift wrote:EDIT: Also, I notice the big "G" on Ray's chest. Please don't tell me that his character is called "Gay-Man".

I assumed he was playing Gary from The Ambiguously Gay Duo-The Movie.

JoybuzzerX wrote:This is everyone assuming Ray is stupid and not knowing full well that this is getting him the job he wants.

Given that he bought into the same line that Dillon had about Nathan's gay sex 'being on the down low' and 'had to partake in 'fake' gay sex in order to convince Nathan that he could play a gay character; yes, Ray was being incredibly stupid and didn't know full well what was actually going on.

He even states "what's the harm?"

Because he thinks that the sex was just part of the audition - an act - and had nothing to do with sexual gratification; and that he earned the role by going that extra mile.

Nathan gets what he wants and he's getting the acting job he wants.

The issue being that sex was never required in order for Ray to get the role; as Nathan admitted to Dillon that Ray was perfectly suitable for the role without sex being involved. Nathan manipulated Ray into having sex with him under the guise that it was part of the audition.

Which is exactly what Amber (and Dillion) did themselves, not to mention past evidence that others who have gotten parts with Nathan or parts in general have done.

Again, the difference being that they both knew what they were doing when they had sex with Nathan. Ray is utterly clueless by comparison.

Amber is just upset that it's her current BF She already knew Nathan was the type of guy who traded sex for movie roles.

She also knows that he is a manipulative scumbag - and going by what Ray has told her - she knows that Ray had no idea that Nathan was actually using his naivety to get free sex out of him.

Raamyah wrote:

Spidrift wrote:EDIT: Also, I notice the big "G" on Ray's chest. Please don't tell me that his character is called "Gay-Man".

I assumed he was playing Gary from The Ambiguously Gay Duo-The Movie.

I shall henceforth call him Gaystroke - Lord of the Grapes!

Fluffy wrote:Again, the difference being that they both knew what they were doing when they had sex with Nathan. Ray is utterly clueless by comparison.

Well, Dillon seems to have been almost as clueless as Ray; he seemed to believe that Nathan had actual serious feelings for him. But that's been resolved and Amber engineered a full revenge for Dillon, whatever. Nathan, however, turns out still to be just as bad.

But people's reactions to this will probably come down to their views of prostitution. If you see it as essentially harmless, a business transaction like any other, to the extent that you don't even worry about someone becoming a prostitute without even realising that they'd done so, then you'll agree with Ray here; what's the problem? If, on the other hand, you see selling sex as inherently demeaning and exploitative, or at least as this particular deal as souring Ray's other, more personal relationship with Amber, then you'll be with Amber -- Nathan is an abusive scumbag, turning Ray into a whore without Ray's knowledge or consent.

The interesting thing is that Amber, for all her loud refusals to be ashamed of her past career, does think the second way. She wants out of the porn business, and she has difficulty facing old friends like Zii, let alone her parents. She also seems desperately to want her sexual relationship with Ray to be emotionally deeper and possibly even monogamous. This may be something she needs to get a bit clearer in her mind; is she a proud former professional, or a recovering whore?

Whatever the case it will further convince Ruby that her sister makes bad decisions and not someone whom she should seek advice on matters of the heart.

Raamyah wrote:

Spidrift wrote:EDIT: Also, I notice the big "G" on Ray's chest. Please don't tell me that his character is called "Gay-Man".

I assumed he was playing Gary from The Ambiguously Gay Duo-The Movie.

If that were the case then the first thing Ray would say to Amber when she walked in is "What are you looking at?" Of course in a few minutes what Nathan would be doing with him would not be ambiguous.

brasca wrote:Whatever the case it will further convince Ruby that her sister makes bad decisions and not someone whom she should seek advice on matters of the heart.

I don't think that Ruby needs any more convincing on that score. The more likely twist is that Amber will get into an emotional mess and Ruby will kick her verbally while she's down. Which might in turn lead to either Ruby suffering a bad case of conscience or Dillon calling her on it,

Fluffy wrote:Given that he bought into the same line that Dillon had about Nathan's gay sex 'being on the down low' and 'had to partake in 'fake' gay sex in order to convince Nathan that he could play a gay character; yes, Ray was being incredibly stupid and didn't know full well what was actually going on.

Nathan could have been lying there on that part and we go back to Ray could have said no.

Because he thinks that the sex was just part of the audition - an act - and had nothing to do with sexual gratification; and that he earned the role by going that extra mile.

I'd say he did earn it by going that extra mile So he wouldn't be wrong there. Even if Ray hadn't done what he did, in that same audition, you had Dillion and another guy out there knowing that whoever got the part would be the one who had sex with Nathan. It's why they then made a pact not to, so it would have to be by another factor.

The issue being that sex was never required in order for Ray to get the role; as Nathan admitted to Dillon that Ray was perfectly suitable for the role without sex being involved. Nathan manipulated Ray into having sex with him under the guise that it was part of the audition.

The idea that "sex was never required in order to get the role" is debatable. There's what is said and then there's what is said.

Again, the difference being that they both knew what they were doing when they had sex with Nathan. Ray is utterly clueless by comparison.

Amber did it with the whole intent to screw over Nathan and Dillion thought Nathan loved him. Ray is not utterly clueless by comparison. I'd say he's a step up from Dillion.

She also knows that he is a manipulative scumbag - and going by what Ray has told her - she knows that Ray had no idea that Nathan was actually using his naivety to get free sex out of him.

Ray in this very comic seems to have some what of a clue here. It's just that people don't like his mind set. "It got me the part, so what's the harm." Ray is not the victim some are making him out to be. He's just the male version of the cliché blonde model "willing to do anything" to get the part.

Spidrift wrote:

Fluffy wrote:Again, the difference being that they both knew what they were doing when they had sex with Nathan. Ray is utterly clueless by comparison.

Well, Dillon seems to have been almost as clueless as Ray; he seemed to believe that Nathan had actual serious feelings for him. But that's been resolved and Amber engineered a full revenge for Dillon, whatever. Nathan, however, turns out still to be just as bad.

But people's reactions to this will probably come down to their views of prostitution. If you see it as essentially harmless, a business transaction like any other, to the extent that you don't even worry about someone becoming a prostitute without even realising that they'd done so, then you'll agree with Ray here; what's the problem? If, on the other hand, you see selling sex as inherently demeaning and exploitative, or at least as this particular deal as souring Ray's other, more personal relationship with Amber, then you'll be with Amber -- Nathan is an abusive scumbag, turning Ray into a whore without Ray's knowledge or consent.

The interesting thing is that Amber, for all her loud refusals to be ashamed of her past career, does think the second way. She wants out of the porn business, and she has difficulty facing old friends like Zii, let alone her parents. She also seems desperately to want her sexual relationship with Ray to be emotionally deeper and possibly even monogamous. This may be something she needs to get a bit clearer in her mind; is she a proud former professional, or a recovering whore?

I think it's actually something far different, and has to do with the general scumminess of Nathan, and how he goes about treating the people under him.

1. Nathan lies about his orientation, being dishonest and perpetuating heteronormativity.
2 Nathan holds jobs hostage, giving them to people who do him "favors" rather than people who deserve them, or, worse yet, giving them to the people who deserve them only if they do him favors.
3. He abuses his position, and seems to have no concern at all over how put out the people under him feel. The lies just make it more grating.

If the owner of a car dealership makes his sales staff mow his lawn to keep their jobs, one's view of gardening doesn't enter the matter. If he makes them wash his car before he'll look at their applications, their friends could reasonably be upset at the situation. I'd feel the same way about him if I found out he had some talented aspiring actor running around as his personal servant as part of his "audition" for the movie's butler role. Holding jobs over people's heads to get them to lie for you, and do things well outside their job descriptions is what's exploitative here. Ray specifically might not mind, but Amber and Dillon certainly did, and Nathan doesn't care one way or the other, using the "casting couch" as his standard operating practice.

Yeah, true enough, Nathan exploits his position of power, which is horrible whatever. But I think that the fact that he exploits it for sex still adds an extra twist. To borrow your gardening example; I can't imagine Amber gasping "you mean that you've already mowed his lawn?" in a horrified tone in this strip, or any of us speculating that Amber might think that Ray had undertaken to cut only her grass.

(Damn. Those are sounding like baroque metaphors for sex now.)

Many bosses exploit their power a little bit. It's reprehensible of them, but can come across as fairly trivial. Exploiting authority for sex is often seen as uniquely noxious, and indeed may be specifically against the law in some cases.

I wonder if Amber is going to explain to Ray exactly what's the harm in what he did, and why he should feel exploited. If so, would it change Ray's mind about what he did with Nathan?

Even better question, what if it doesn't? What if Ray feels getting the job was entirely worth what he had to do to get it, and he'd do it again if it came down to it?

Amber isn't overly cerebral; she might have trouble explaining the problem very clearly. More importantly, though, I think that Ray is most likely going to display the second reaction. He already knows that he's had gay sex with Nathan, whatever the specific excuse and despite his previous straight history, and he really wants to be a star. He may well mean it when he says that no harm has been done.

And he may well wonder why Amber of all people is fussing. I mean, he obviously likes her, but he originally knew of her as Amber-Amber, the porn star. She's used to screwing people for a living on camera; why should she worry about this?

I think Amber may well be in for some harsh revelations about how her new boyfriend sees her.

(And Ruby may have her beliefs about relationships confirmed. Poor Andy. Though if she ever thinks that she could make one work while Amber is bollixing hers up... Lucky Andy.)

Is someone finally beating up El Sleazo del Casting Couch? Yay!

Ah, we're back to violence fantasies about Ma3-universe characters, I see. Not that Nathan would be first in line to deserve such things.

But anyway, two details nobody has commented on yet: first, Amber's high-heeled boot in panel 1. Very Canadian-autumn sexy, though possibly painful for Nathan. And second, Ray's habit of leaning his head to the right. The boy will put his neck out at this rate.

Spidrift wrote:[

And for a fourth, they don't know anything about Nathan's wife. She may well have married him for the money, and be turning a blind eye to his adventures so long as the shopping trips and champagne parties keep coming in. So snitching on him might achieve nothing - except Nathan's wife might tip him off that he has treacherous underlings somewhere.

Except it was said that his secretary does cover for him when it comes to his wife.So it doesn't sound like she knows, or at least he doesn't think she knows. Plus if she is only in it for the money, an excuse to divorce him and take most his money would prove beneficial.

I'm not sure if Amber and Dillon know about his secretary covering. But anyway, turning a blind eye traditionally often means tactfully pretending not to know in these cases; it's less embarrassing or humiliating that way.

And as for the divorce option - that's so much hard work, what with all the lawyers and courtroom time, and she'd have to fight for the half share while Nathan tried to hide the full amount of his wealth... If she is a classical hard-bitten mercenary gold-digger, she may much prefer the comfortable status quo.

Note: We have no particular evidence that Nathan's wife is like that. But we have no evidence that she isn't, and Nathan is such a stereotyped rich exploitative bastard movie producer that it wouldn't be too surprising if he had a stereotyped gold-digging wife. Dillon and Amber shouldn't assume that he hasn't - though they ought equally to allow for the possibility of a tearful innocent who really loved Nathan showing up at their door one day, calling them names.