23-12-15 Fend for myself

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JoybuzzerX
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Re: 23-12-15 Fend for myself

Post by JoybuzzerX » Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:58 pm

Maechris wrote:Angel is trying to make me feel bad about occasionally using the world "Hermaphrodite" when referring to humans/people (real or fictional). Daaamn you Angel. Although they're right about it not being accurate in case of virtually any human intersex people. I guess I just never saw the word as particularly demeaning in any way.
That's because the word wasn't demeaning until people made it demeaning. Mental Retardation was the proper medical term until people used it as an insult, which got it changed to Intellectual Disability. :p It's happened with many words Secretary, Janitor, Lunch Lady. All changed to Office Administrator or Personal Assistant, Custodial Engineer, Food Prep Engineer. Special Education became Special Needs.

Basically it's people getting hurt over the name of their job/medical condition and so the name gets changed to appease them.

Hermaphrodite: a person or animal having both male and female sex organs or other sexual characteristics, either abnormally or (in the case of some organisms) as the natural condition.

That's the definition, which does fit what Ramona has as it's a broad term definition, but it's a word people started considering an insult, it has a negative connotation, and so people get butt hurt about it. :p

My guess is Angel gets so upset for the both of them, that Ramona was more embarrassed by her, that she never got upset about it. Ramona could also just be a nicer, sweeter, more understanding person (a rare thing for sure).

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Spidrift
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Re: 23-12-15 Fend for myself

Post by Spidrift » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:22 pm

JoybuzzerX wrote:Basically it's people getting hurt over the name of their job/medical condition and so the name gets changed to appease them.
It doesn't help when other, not-nice people manage to use the neutral terms in an insult-laden tone, of course. The trouble is, that can happen very quickly. As someone once said, it was about five minutes after the invention of the polite term "special needs" that kids in the playground began hurling the word "SPE-SHUL" at each other.
JoybuzzerX wrote:Hermaphrodite: a person or animal having both male and female sex organs or other sexual characteristics, either abnormally or (in the case of some organisms) as the natural condition.

That's the definition, which does fit what Ramona has as it's a broad term definition, but it's a word people started considering an insult, it has a negative connotation, and so people get butt hurt about it.
Actually, it almost certainly doesn't really fit Ramona. The terms she's mentioned fits what she said; she's anatomically a girl, to external inspection, with probably pretty standard-looking external sex organs. Her internal anatomy will be out of whack, complete with internal testes, but "hermaphrodite" implies that she'd have some kind of dual external structures. Angel quite understandably seems to think that's not only wrong, but makes people look at her the way that Dillon and Zii did for one frame - as a bit of a freak.

So Angel is being hypersensitive, but is right to say that "hermaphrodite" is just the wrong word to use, with some misleading implications.
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Re: 23-12-15 Fend for myself

Post by LegendaryKroc » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:50 pm

Spidrift wrote:And Ramona honestly strikes me as one of the least mind-bending or emotionally confusing instances of intersexuality one can get. Some intersex people do have ambiguous anatomy or self-image, but Ramona was born and has grown up looking like a girl, and she apparently has a solidly female (and, for what it's worth, heterosexual) self-image; the only way anyone can tell that she's not a vanilla human female is probably by internal or genetic examination. At my most conservatively fogeyish, I just couldn't be bothered to think of her as anything but a woman, with some non-life-threatening medical issues.
Or by her own admission, like we all got. :P

I guess the reason she's the anti-Angel is because their positions are swapped - as we know, Angel is biologically female and always has been, but xe is prone to a changing gender mentally and attempts to adapt xer look to suit the way xe feels at any given moment; Ramona is technically both male and female, but clearly thinks of herself as female only and thus always looks and acts that way. In other words, just look at the adjectives describing them: gender for Angel, sex for Ramona. Schrodinger's X is different for the two of them.

Though I wonder, if she winds up showing some kind of insanity after all, what form would it come in? A small-scale thing, or a massive-scale one?

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Re: 23-12-15 Fend for myself

Post by Varanus » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:09 pm

JoybuzzerX wrote:Hermaphrodite: a person or animal having both male and female sex organs or other sexual characteristics, either abnormally or (in the case of some organisms) as the natural condition.

That's the definition, which does fit what Ramona has as it's a broad term definition, but it's a word people started considering an insult, it has a negative connotation, and so people get butt hurt about it.
I would have thought it was less about insults and more about how there is no such thing as a hermaphrodite human where both sex organs are fully functional. Being big on studying animals, when I hear the word hermaphrodite I tend to think of things like many snails and slugs, wherein they mate and both individuals can leave the encounter pregnant with each other's young.

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Re: 23-12-15 Fend for myself

Post by Spidrift » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:44 pm

LegendaryKroc wrote:I guess the reason she's the anti-Angel is because their positions are swapped - as we know, Angel is biologically female and always has been, but xe is prone to a changing gender mentally and attempts to adapt xer look to suit the way xe feels at any given moment; Ramona is technically both male and female, but clearly thinks of herself as female only and thus always looks and acts that way.
It's more than that, to the point where it looks quite deliberate. Choose any adjective that might fit Angel (tall, skinny, goth, fluid, excitable...), and you'll probably have to choose the converse for Ramona.

Given that we already have two highly contrasting sisters in the story, I'm wondering if this is either a theme or the setup for a moment of revelation for Ruby (or Amber). Or just the punchline to an ironic joke.
LegendaryKroc wrote:Though I wonder, if she winds up showing some kind of insanity after all, what form would it come in? A small-scale thing, or a massive-scale one?
"Insanity" is probably too strong a word for most of what these characters have; "flaw" would be nearer the mark. (Ruby's flaw is her anger at Amber, Amber's is emotional tunnel vision, Jerzy's is his taste for drama queens, and so on.) And we already know that Ramona is a little immature (probably because she's young), with a squeeing fangirl love of yaoi. Things may well come from that.
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Cresset
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Re: 23-12-15 Fend for myself

Post by Cresset » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:39 am

Maechris wrote:Angel is trying to make me feel bad about occasionally using the world "Hermaphrodite" when referring to humans/people (real or fictional). Daaamn you Angel. Although they're right about it not being accurate in case of virtually any human intersex people. I guess I just never saw the word as particularly demeaning in any way.
Probably because while the hermaphrodite of legend was an attractive demigod, the real life ones are plants, slugs, worms, etc. Humans can't have a functioning set of both organs, so the term is misleading anyway.

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Re: 23-12-15 Fend for myself

Post by Azrael » Thu Dec 24, 2015 2:58 am

The Law. It has been laid down. :p
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JoybuzzerX
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Re: 23-12-15 Fend for myself

Post by JoybuzzerX » Thu Dec 24, 2015 6:15 am

Spidrift wrote:
JoybuzzerX wrote:That's the definition, which does fit what Ramona has as it's a broad term definition, but it's a word people started considering an insult, it has a negative connotation, and so people get butt hurt about it.
Actually, it almost certainly doesn't really fit Ramona. The terms she's mentioned fits what she said; she's anatomically a girl, to external inspection, with probably pretty standard-looking external sex organs. Her internal anatomy will be out of whack, complete with internal testes, but "hermaphrodite" implies that she'd have some kind of dual external structures. Angel quite understandably seems to think that's not only wrong, but makes people look at her the way that Dillon and Zii did for one frame - as a bit of a freak.
I take it, the other characteristics (as per the definition) to be the XY Chromosomes she has. As said though, it's likely an old term, much like previously mentioned that some people just don't care for use.

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Re: 23-12-15 Fend for myself

Post by Morwen » Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:42 am

The more i see of Ramona, the more I like her.
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Re: 23-12-15 Fend for myself

Post by Spidrift » Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:52 am

JoybuzzerX wrote:I take it, the other characteristics (as per the definition) to be the XY Chromosomes she has. As said though, it's likely an old term, much like previously mentioned that some people just don't care for use.
But the people who invented the term didn't even know that chromosones existed - and if scientists use it at all, it's for weird invertebrates who really do have two functional sets of genitals (like the demigod). Applying it to real or realistic people is just dated and misleading.
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Re: 23-12-15 Fend for myself

Post by Maechris » Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:36 am

Varanus wrote:
JoybuzzerX wrote:Hermaphrodite: a person or animal having both male and female sex organs or other sexual characteristics, either abnormally or (in the case of some organisms) as the natural condition.

That's the definition, which does fit what Ramona has as it's a broad term definition, but it's a word people started considering an insult, it has a negative connotation, and so people get butt hurt about it.
I would have thought it was less about insults and more about how there is no such thing as a hermaphrodite human where both sex organs are fully functional. Being big on studying animals, when I hear the word hermaphrodite I tend to think of things like many snails and slugs, wherein they mate and both individuals can leave the encounter pregnant with each other's young.
That's because snails and slugs are hermaphrodites *proper*, so you are certainly correct here. When I used it in regards to people, it was mostly either fictional characters or as a shortcut to explaining certain varieties of intersex (or for the greek demigod Hermaphroditos xD). All this time I've been unaware anyone could consider the term to be offensive simply because it is in fact completely medically inaccurate in regards to whatever degrees of intersex were found in humans so far (partially because how differentiation of cells & tissue that makes up our sex bits works in humans).
Spidrift wrote:
LegendaryKroc wrote:Though I wonder, if she winds up showing some kind of insanity after all, what form would it come in? A small-scale thing, or a massive-scale one?
"Insanity" is probably too strong a word for most of what these characters have; "flaw" would be nearer the mark. (Ruby's flaw is her anger at Amber, Amber's is emotional tunnel vision, Jerzy's is his taste for drama queens, and so on.) And we already know that Ramona is a little immature (probably because she's young), with a squeeing fangirl love of yaoi. Things may well come from that.
To be fair, in her free time Ramona's ready and willing to spend time over *joining and participating in activities of a club whose sole point of interest is tastefully mild erotica to outright primarily-directed-at-certain-subset-of-female-manga-fans porn*, which describes people (men in this case) becoming/turning/finding out they are gay in all sorts of usually pretty ridiculous situations (trust me on this), including some 'parodies' of existing media where characters who are often canonically straight suddenly aren't.

Now, there is nothing inherently wrong with having a hobby only adults are allowed to engage in, but I dare say this is *just* eccentric enough to warrant her existence in MA3-verse ;)
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Re: 23-12-15 Fend for myself

Post by UnsightlyWalrus » Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:43 am

I'm starting to wonder if Angel is crossdressing and identifying as male for Ramona's sake in some odd way. To make her feel less weird or something like that.

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Re: 23-12-15 Fend for myself

Post by Ithilion » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:51 pm

The thought did cross my mind, Walrus... and in a weird round about way, it makes Angel look better...
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Re: 23-12-15 Fend for myself

Post by Artemisia » Thu Dec 24, 2015 2:36 pm

Cresset wrote:
Maechris wrote:Angel is trying to make me feel bad about occasionally using the world "Hermaphrodite" when referring to humans/people (real or fictional). Daaamn you Angel. Although they're right about it not being accurate in case of virtually any human intersex people. I guess I just never saw the word as particularly demeaning in any way.
Probably because while the hermaphrodite of legend was an attractive demigod, the real life ones are plants, slugs, worms, etc. Humans can't have a functioning set of both organs, so the term is misleading anyway.
However, it is conceivable that a human could. Over the last 150 years, there have been less than two-dozen known cases of people carrying both ovarian and testicular tissues. It is possible that those numbers are larger as most people are not screened for not-exactly obvious intersex conditions unless something comes up medically. With regards to the other organs, the way the human body is set up creates a situation whereby it would be incredibly difficult for someone to have everything.
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Re: 23-12-15 Fend for myself

Post by kamishiro » Fri Dec 25, 2015 9:04 pm

Well, since we are on the subject i would like to recommend the manga called IS - Otoko demo Onna demo na sei. It really gives an insight about intersex, really eye-opening.

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