18-12-15 Out of whack

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Morwen
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Re: 18-12-15 Out of whack

Post by Morwen » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:45 am

JerrBear wrote:I over-generalized a bit out of haste. I'm not meaning to say perception is 100% reality. But one big "but" for me has always been that perception is someone's personal reality and that matters.

Normal tends to be subjective based on personal perception. My own normal is quite a few people's abnormal (Though, usually when they understand that what goes on in my daily life (that pertains to SMA) is my normal, most people end up viewing my normal as normal).
I think you're confusing "normal" with It makes sense in context.
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Re: 18-12-15 Out of whack

Post by JoybuzzerX » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:58 am

Cresset wrote:
JoybuzzerX wrote:Still doesn't matter why Ramona is saying it. She's saying it. You don't argue with her about what she onsiders herself.
If someone I care about starts to say bad things about themselves I'll totally say something, unless I can tell it's just self-deprecating humour.
Nevermind that Angel is wrong herself. Normal is a thing. Do you or do you not fall within the normal line. The fact that there has been abnormalities since the beginning of time, doesn't make it normal. It means that, there being abnormalities is normal. :p
Well sure, but no one really wants to be considered abnormal, which means it's seen as a bad thing. So when someone describes themselves that way, it can be a bit worrying. Most people consider "weird" to be inherently bad, even though it can have more positive meanings such as quirky or eccentric.
Ramona has come off as seeming to be very secure with herself so far, it has only appeared that Angel herself can't handle other's securities, likely due to her own insecurities.
Yeah there's some projection, but I think it probably comes from being subjected to the same barrages of questions. I wouldn't call her insecure though, she doesn't avoid talking about her own condition and answers questions when asked nicely.
She didn't say anything bad about herself. She described herself but it was in a context in which Angel herself wasn't happy with. Angel appears to want everything explained in a very technical manner.

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Re: 18-12-15 Out of whack

Post by Zippy » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:40 am

Cresset wrote:
JoybuzzerX wrote:Still doesn't matter why Ramona is saying it. She's saying it. You don't argue with her about what she onsiders herself.
If someone I care about starts to say bad things about themselves I'll totally say something, unless I can tell it's just self-deprecating humour.
There's a line between "self-deprecating" and "self-hatred". Nothing Ramona has said so far - certainly not the way she's said it - about the XY thing suggests the latter.

(Being cornered by Zii about her yaoi habit, otoh...)

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Re: 18-12-15 Out of whack

Post by Spidrift » Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:28 am

She was a little embarrassed about having her yaoi habit broadcast to the world - not to an unrealistic level, and less than Ruby used to be. But once she was convinced to come to the club, she seemed reasonably comfortable.

Functionally, Ramona seems to be a rather shy, slightly nervous, maybe naive young woman with a medical condition that she acknowledges but tries not to make into a big deal.
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Re: 18-12-15 Out of whack

Post by Fluffy » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:29 pm

JoybuzzerX wrote:
Just because Dillion is gay, doesn't mean he doesn't have his own prejudices (which he had shown earlier to not really like, maybe even a little hate on, for those who are bi).
Or the fact that he doesn't recognize gender-fluidity as being an actual thing; implying that those who identify as gender fluid are mentally unhinged. (wasn't the same thing said about homosexuality for the longest time - to the point that those poor folks were put into mental asylums and put through some horrific experiments to be 'cured' of the 'affliction'?)

Even if he said it because it was Angel who identified as gender fluid, and not because it's something that he actually believes, doesn't make Dillon any less of an insensitive asshole for saying it. And it's not like he's going to apologize to Angel for it, either.
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Re: 18-12-15 Out of whack

Post by DrAngryEd » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:55 pm

And Angel right now is having a Tumblr stroke.
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Re: 18-12-15 Out of whack

Post by Zayzie » Sat Dec 19, 2015 2:19 pm

JoybuzzerX wrote:
Zayzie wrote:I really like how this comic shows that Dillon isn't actively trying to demonize a group of people, he just happens to be offensive when he is trying to take digs at someone, or if he's being absent-minded and a bit dull...
Just because Dillion is gay, doesn't mean he doesn't have his own prejudices (which he had shown earlier to not really like, maybe even a little hate on, for those who are bi).
I never asserted that Dillon's being gay means he is incapable of prejudice or bias. I didn't even mention his being gay. I asserted that Dillon's being dimwitted inadvertently results in his being an idiot (or jerk) because he's not stopping to consider the extent of what he's saying. But, as I also already asserted, this isn't actively going out of his way to hate on every bisexual (or other sexual/gender identity) person he encounters, or (at least imo) he would not be so quick to apologize/make up with Zii. He's just being a mega blockhead. Of course being an idiot doesn't relieve him of the responsibility of being a jerk, and he seems to acknowledge that in this strip.

I would appreciate if, when people start jumping to assumptions about what my words mean, that they explain why they jumped to such a conclusion if there is nothing in my statement to directly support such an assumption. Otherwise, if I read such a reply to things I said, I get the impression that the reply is coming out of absolutely nowhere.

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Re: 18-12-15 Out of whack

Post by Artemisia » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:36 pm

JerrBear wrote:Besides, it's up to individuals to decide whether they view themselves as either normal or abnormal.
Varanus wrote:It is ironic that efforts to force inclusiveness can have the opposite effect. Weird can be wonderful, and its great when it can be seen as making someone more interesting rather than acting like their weirdness doesn't exist.
Definitely. I've tried to talk to people about what I call my "deformity" and they try to tell me I shouldn't think that way and I should revel in being as I am, and yet, I find that if I think of how I am as a "deformity", I actually feel far better than if I try to fit myself into the "I must be happy about it". I already struggle to socialize with people and feel alright around others. Anything that I do which can make me feel better is a priority over the attempts to define cultural norms.
JoybuzzerX wrote:None of it is Romana's fault. She can describe herself however she wants to describe herself. It's Angel who's out of line, as she's yelling at Romana for being who she is, which is only offensive to Angel.
Cresset wrote:She's assuming Ramona is just repeating the sort of depreciative comments others may have said about her or her condition, due to low self-esteem. We haven't seen enough of Ramona to know it that's the case or if she's just comfortable enough to joke about it, but Angel has probably been her friend long enough to tell which is it.

We've also seen Angel's thoughts about how relaxing it was to have a conversation without being asked a dozen questions (Ruby just wasn't paying attention, though), so she probably gets defensive seeing someone going through that.
The term "hermaphrodite" is misleading and using it likely lead to a stronger reaction at this point out of Zii and Dillon...not that it necessarily means that they wouldn't have asked those stupid questions anyway. However, asking questions like that is, to me, quite out of bounds and offensive. I'm just saying that the use of the term make it more likely that those questions would be asked. I know...I see things in so many minute shades of things that it can be hard to explain that I don't see that Ramona's fault.

What I am getting at is the fact that hermaphrodite is a very specific term used to describe a very specific condition which has very specific connotations within most people's brains. That does not mean that Ramona is wrong to use it if she wants, but the reaction that it creates is often a specific one. And it wouldn't surprise me if Ramona has very low self esteem due to the way many intersexuals are treated.

Which includes invasive questions about genitalia.
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Re: 18-12-15 Out of whack

Post by Morwen » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:23 pm

DrAngryEd wrote:And Angel right now is having a Tumblr stroke.
=)) =)) =))
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Re: 18-12-15 Out of whack

Post by someone » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:46 pm

My perception is that Ramona probably had a sheltered upbringing and never really had to suffer from her unusual anatomy -- especially if it doesn't show outwardly, as seems to be the case; if you have to be her ob/gyn to notice a difference between her and a "normal" girl then she wouldn't have been teased or bullied about her condition. She definitely seems to see it as no big deal. Angel's gender fluidity on the other hand may have been a cause of incomprehension and rejection among peers so that explains a greater sensitivity to the question.

So Ramona can say her insides are out of whack in the same way someone may remark they're allergic to peanuts, and she uses "hermaphrodite" because she doesn't care enough to use the proper term.

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Re: 18-12-15 Out of whack

Post by Maechris » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:48 pm

Then, there's a decent chance Giz & Co just happened to watch the right episodes of House inbetween writing and decided to smack what they've learned into a character, I suppose.
They did have an intersex there and a girl who was a genetical boy there (Androgen immunity syndrome + Something else that I can't remember + Whatever House happened to cure in that particular episode).

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Re: 18-12-15 Out of whack

Post by Cresset » Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:04 pm

DrAngryEd wrote:And Angel right now is having a Tumblr stroke.
Symptoms include speaking in allcaps, sudden loss of punctuation and shat cereal.

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Re: 18-12-15 Out of whack

Post by Spidrift » Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:14 pm

Incidentally, it's entirely possible that Ramona used to have some hangups after her condition was diagnosed (an "I'm a weirdzo freak and nobody will ever love me" sort of thing), and Angel helped her get over this. In which case, good for Angel. But we have no particular evidence for that, and even if it's the case, Angel is now wildly overcompensating.
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Re: 18-12-15 Out of whack

Post by JerrBear » Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:37 am

Morwen wrote:
JerrBear wrote:I over-generalized a bit out of haste. I'm not meaning to say perception is 100% reality. But one big "but" for me has always been that perception is someone's personal reality and that matters.

Normal tends to be subjective based on personal perception. My own normal is quite a few people's abnormal (Though, usually when they understand that what goes on in my daily life (that pertains to SMA) is my normal, most people end up viewing my normal as normal).
I think you're confusing "normal" with It makes sense in context.
Maybe it's a bit of both. Regardless, after knowing the context people have literally said that my life "is normal". Context does normalize some things for individuals.

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Re: 18-12-15 Out of whack

Post by tau neutrino » Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:30 am

Here's the most probable condition she seems to have, Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, if anyone was wondering about the effects.

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