16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

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Maechris
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Maechris » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:45 pm

I am ashamed to say I appear to recognize all these references... xD
'Tis shall be and remain noted :P

While I do feel like there are people who have found themselves caught to inbetween the two 'gender extremes', and those who've fallen entirely off the line and turned to Orange and Blue Gender Denomination, I believe these situations are far more rare than people who just claim to be in said situations. Then, again, I am in no position to judge anyone; there's just a lot of people forgetting certain other factors influence how we feel about yourself, including in some extreme instances the need to have one's 'uniqueness' acknowledged and recognized by others.
More often than not people fail to see the entirety of the issue, and focus on a single facet of it. Ask yourself what makes you right before you set fire on other people for being wrong. // "Chemical reactions between the kawaii and uguu hormones.Within the Desu Gland. This is near to the upper Moe muscle."

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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Spidrift » Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:07 pm

Maechris wrote:1) Snakes and (to a lesser extent) wolves always get the short, villainous end of the stick.
Not quite. There's a lovely moment about snake totems early in Brotherhood of the Wolf (Pact des Loups to any francophones reading this), and the real wolves turn out to be on the side of the heroes by the end. Great movie generally...
2) Funnily enough, Dillon gets with Zii (who is so obviously bisexual, it *hurts*) MARVELOUSLY, but is biphobic towards men.
Dillon showed no sign of being worried when Matt first mentioned in passing that he was bi. It was only after Matt shagged a girl behind his back that he got twitchy on the subject, and now he's had the same experience twice, he's doubly twitchy. Everything is personal for Dilly, or it doesn't count.
Last edited by Spidrift on Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Don Alexander » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:39 am

Spidrift wrote:Great movie generally...
100%

Especially the Bellucci's Vast Tracts of Land...
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Azrael » Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:48 am

Indeed. I give it a 5/7. >.>
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Morwen » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:12 am

Bellucci is always worth the full 5/7. End of story.

Oh yeah, Pact des Loups was fun too... and the scene with the dagger was as if out of a fantasy drawing.
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Maechris » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:37 am

So when Monica Bellucci stars, it automatically increases the rating of a movie to a perfect score, i.e. 5/7 ?
More often than not people fail to see the entirety of the issue, and focus on a single facet of it. Ask yourself what makes you right before you set fire on other people for being wrong. // "Chemical reactions between the kawaii and uguu hormones.Within the Desu Gland. This is near to the upper Moe muscle."

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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Morwen » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:06 pm

It goes all the way up to 3/7 if said movie is Malena.

Potential exception to the above rule is Irreversible.
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Artemisia » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:36 pm

Morwen wrote:@Artemisia: You may wish to consider that "gender stereotypes" and stories about ogres saving the princess exist -because- humanity works like that, instead of the other way around.
That's the problem. It isn't like that. Go outside the stories centered in rigid binary cultures and you run into a lot of stories regarding other genders. Native American cultures are the best example of these stories as there are several stories involving third and fourth gender individuals within these stories and they often take on magical/mystical roles within the stories. The Victorians did a lot of purging with regards to gender and sexual non-binary and non-conformity with regards to European cultures, and there are indications of stories which were "cleaned up" by their scholars. There are also indications that many of the stereotypes woven into the stories we as Europeans are familiar with were heavily altered. My favorite example is "Blue Beard", which in older stories was a very different story and had the principle woman in the story acting to save her life rather than waiting for her brothers to do so.
Maechris wrote:
Artemisia wrote: Morwen...I'm not just thinking in terms of language. Every story you have ever read contains the concepts which our culture passes on to each of us. Each story about a Prince saving a Princess reinforces the gender constructs and gender norms that our society demands. Most of these constructs date back only about four hundred or so years. The rigidity of our culture is mostly an Enlightenment phenomenon. There are elements of human experience, however, which defy the rigidity which our culture has built in.
There's a certain thing to be said about nature vs nurture here.
Despite some people trying their hardest to enforce the idea everything is relative and a social construct, it is undeniable that certain mental tendencies in humans are based on the way their body and brain have developed, and there are even quantifiable differences between most 'male' and 'female' brains.
For every person that believes a Prince saving a Princess is reinforcing constructs and norms there's another who dreamed of such a scenario not from the moment they've read such a story but from the moment they started interacting with other people in a romantic manner. Whether the cause is hormonal balance, natural brain development, or something else, there is a biological basis that reinforces certain gender identities. It is not the only or the main factor in gender identity, but it can hardly be denied that tendencies we're born with and develop through our phenotype pitted against the environment we grow up in are a major factor in developing a gender identity.

Personally I believe it's not that things that reinforce basic notions of 'femininity' or 'masculinity' as they've been traditionally held for thousands of years are somehow inherently bad (some are, some aren't, as usual). It's how easily people who managed to conform to them react with horror to those that don't conform to them ('tomboy' is sometimes an insult, the eagerness with which effeminate men or tough women are called 'sissy' or 'butch' is a little scary, and the only way some people are able to identify genderqueer people is through porn misnomers), in any way, that is the problem.
I have an obsession with stories and how they interact with people. To that end, I have spent a lot of time reading up on the theories as well as forming my own as I read through many, many stories from a variety of cultures. By the time we reach the age of ten, those stories are so integrated into our psyches that they are a part of how we view the world, and to that point, any deviation from the cultural norms implanted by those stories often creates a dissonance within those who do not conform to those norms. This does not mean that the genders represented by those specific stories are 'wrong' or 'evil', but rather that these stories help to reinforce that only those representations of male or female are correct and anyone who deviates from those gender norms is made to feel bad. The European culture has narrow definitions of male and female and those are often enforced by the stories we read. The idea that a woman can be a warrior has traditionally been looked down upon and men being feminine has been attacked, and the way stories interact with our perceptions of the world impacts that.
Maechris wrote:
Morwen wrote:A quick search only reveals one instance of the "five genders" bit and I'm gonna go with the Wikipedia entry of it, since it includes what I found in other sources and is convenient enough.
Aaand then, there's this wonderful concept where everyone has six or seven (I keep forgetting) gender "Points" on which they can be "Masculine, moderate, or feminine", where the number of gender combinations becomes so high, it ceases to have meaning.

I do fear that humanity is splitting between two extremes : Those that are too scared to admit gender may not be a black-and-white type of things, and those that are too eager to accept gender as a spectrum as broad as visible colors and an entirely mental construct.
Oddly enough, as I said earlier, if you strip away everything normally used to define gender such as the constructs surrounding it and the biology, what defines someone as male or female becomes impossible to define. Different cultures have different definitions of what is traditionally supposed to be male or female, and one could actually define those more as "this is the role in society that I am drawn to" rather than a gender or sexual terminology. For instance, I am drawn to the role of storyteller within our society and have a fascination with stories, how they work, and how they impact us. That is neither male nor female. One could look at the idea of a nurturer being female, but the reality is that in many cultures males were also expected to nurture children. Now, often these males were older and no longer able to fulfill their previous roles and so changed the roles that they undertook.

I said earlier as well that I think our biggest problem is that we are, as a culture, trying to define and understand things which are part of our organic and human experiences but that we lack the cultural and linguistic framework to understand it very well.

Oh, and I don't see what's wrong with six year old boys in skirts...there are cultures where that would be the norm.

BTW, thank you all for the interesting conversation. I'm not sure we can go much further, but still. Thank you. This has been fun.
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Maechris » Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:26 pm

While there's nothing specifically wrong with a six year old boy choosing to dress in a feminine manner for their culture (which was the idea, rather than just 'skirts'), there is a hell of a lot of wrong with someone suggesting there should be schooldays where they're *forced* to dress in such a manner like it's their school uniform or something. Which is what was the suggestion these 'extremists' laid down, and for months the more conservative media wouldn't shut up about it (in the manner of propaganda quoting it as "the overall attitude of LGBT communities").
More often than not people fail to see the entirety of the issue, and focus on a single facet of it. Ask yourself what makes you right before you set fire on other people for being wrong. // "Chemical reactions between the kawaii and uguu hormones.Within the Desu Gland. This is near to the upper Moe muscle."

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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Artemisia » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:18 pm

Ah...forcing them to wear skirts would be wrong...same can be said for girls too.
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Cortez » Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:31 am

Morwen wrote:
@Artemisia: You may wish to consider that "gender stereotypes" and stories about ogres saving the princess exist -because- humanity works like that, instead of the other way around.
Except humanity really doesn't work like that. Ultimately humanity isn't that simple.
Morwen wrote:There's a saying you may have heard:
Various Artists wrote:Do not be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
It has been attributed to many over the last couple of centuries and the wording changes slightly over the years, but the meaning should be clear.
So you don't know who you're quoting? That doesn't help your case since for all you know you might be quoting an old racist that didn't want to share a bathroom with anyone that isn't white.

And ultimately, the younger generation being less bigoted than the older one isn't a bad thing.

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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Ithilion » Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:22 am

@Cortez
It's a chicken and egg kind of thing, with human nature being the egg and stories being the chicken (basic evolution kids: the egg came first). From there on, it became a feedback loop, with one half influencing the other.

  • You completely missed the point with Morwen's quote. Doubly so, in fact.
  • First of all, it's not that she doesn't know who she is quoting, it's that many have said it, with slightly different wording each time, over the years. She even clearly states that. She chose to put "Various Artists" (a common thing in older music albums, not sure about nowdays) instead of listing the 7-8 famous people that have said it.
  • Second, that's an ad hominem to your perceived unknown source for the quote. It should not matter who said something, but whether or not that something has any merit in itself. If a racist told you the sun is hot, would you disregard the information because of who gave it to you?


"Less bigoted" is worlds apart from "so open minded their brain fell off" ...and I'd actually say in many ways the new generation (at least the tumblrinas and academia neo-progressive crowd) is far more bigoted than the ones before. They just try to hide it under a thin and fragile veneer of "diversity" and ideology.

@Artemisia:
It would be funny if that was even close to the tip of the iceberg.
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Artemisia » Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:18 pm

Ithilion....I do not have a sense of humor that I am aware of...to paraphrase a quote.

Actually, I do have a warped and often strange sense of humor, but that being said...unfortunately, we have extremists on both sides. For instance, there are those Feminists who want to turn the world 180...they don't care about taking down Patriarchal structures so much as instituting their own Matriarchal structures which are as gender restrictive and damaging as the stuff they rail against. There are Lesbian and Gay activists out there who would rather flip the world and make any form of heterosexuality anathema. And before I get a comment with regards to my past comments, I'm not one of those even though I do struggle with understanding heterosexuality. There are people who one would ostensibly believe would be on the side of people like Ramona who would rather see all intersexuals fully sterilized, operated upon to conform and never told of their medical problems (never mind that for someone who has an intersex condition, the medical problems can go beyond genitalia. We have far too many people out there who are supposedly on the side of change who are more interested in the fantasy of their own power.

With regards to stories...stories change over time. Take, for instance, the story of Little Red Riding Hood. The story has been traced back to China. Most of the earliest known versions of it in Europe were more stories that seem to have been told by mothers to warn daughters about the dangers of men, and thus the very rape-y over tones of many of the early versions of the story. Under the Grimm's, it became a morality tale with the whole "Path of the Pin/Path of the Needle" stuff and the being saved by the woodsman. It went from being a story about how men can be evil to how a fallen woman (Path of the Pin was the path of morality while Path of the Needle was the path of prostitution) can be redeemed by Christ. There's thousands of instances of this. As society changed so did the stories.
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"I'm going to do what I do best...lecture her."- Twilight Sparkle (My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic)
"Hello, I'm a lizard woman from the dawn of time, and this is my wife." - Madam Vastra (Doctor Who "The Snowmen")
"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes." The 4th Doctor Doctor Who "Robot"

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