16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

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Cortez
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Cortez » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:42 pm

Don Alexander wrote:Morwen's not a man...
Did i say otherwise?


Morwen wrote:

And yes, time does move forward... modern academia has turned into kindergarten for tweens and the future looks bleak.
I don't see how the younger generation being more open minded and progressive makes the future bleak.

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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Don Alexander » Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:00 pm

Well, you were directly answering her "Call me old-fashioned" and wrote "Time moves forward man"

And I mostly agree, Cortez. Donald Trump makes the future bleak!
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Morwen » Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:03 pm

There's a saying you may have heard:
Various Artists wrote:Do not be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
It has been attributed to many over the last couple of centuries and the wording changes slightly over the years, but the meaning should be clear.

As for the progressive bit, I'll grant you that, if you add a "neo-" prefix to it. Otherwise, all I have seen of "safe spaces" in modern academia (thankfully restricted to USA, Canada, UK, and some Scandinavian countries for now) feels more like kindergarten or segregation ...and those are pretty regressive.

Here are two more quotes for you, both with known sources. One (emphasis mine) that flies in the face of everything neo-progressives are doing (despite claiming the opposite) and one that's simply good advice.
Martin Luther King, Jr. wrote:I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
Richard Dawkins FRS FRSL wrote:A university is not a "safe space". If you need a safe space, leave, go home, hug your teddy & suck your thumb until ready for university.
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by JerrBear » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:41 pm

Artemisia wrote:
JerrBear wrote: Indeed. I've met plenty of Biphobic and Transphobic Gay Men. Despite our history of calling for accepting of people-as-they-are, it's not too uncommon to meet other Gay Men who aren't accepting. In my own experience with my community: Gay, Caucasian, Young, Able-bodied, and Not-Fat seems to be the preferred representation; especially as the politics start shifting towards more "socially conservative" attitudes. Though, I want to stress that YMMV with experience.

Edit: I don't believe that most people in the Gay Community are like I mentioned above. A little under half. I've also experienced the opposite.
Unfortunately, I've been on the receiving end of a variety of hatred from just about everyone in the Community. The biphobia and transphobia isn't just among gay men. There are a number of biphobic and transphobic lesbians out there, and even within the Trans Community, there are people who can be very prejudiced. For those who wouldn't know, not all trans people identify as the Trans part, and unfortunately, that can mean a lot of prejudice getting thrown at someone who doesn't see being trans as being an identity. I'm probably mangling this explanation.

Simply put, there's a lot of hate within the Community, and Dillon is showing a lot of the usual signs of being one of those who has a very narrow view of gender and identity.
I can see that happening too easily.

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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Cresset » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:59 pm

Fluffy wrote:Not wanting to say/hear someone's name doesn't make a person a drama queen. A drama queen is an attention seeker who goes into a rage after jumping at conclusions and tends to blow minor things way out of proportion. In Angel's case, disliking Zii (who was a friend), after catching her having sex with Jerzy (who was Angel's boyfriend, at the time) isn't blowing things out of proportion/making a big deal over nothing.
Holding a grudge for months (years?) over a mistake rings pretty dramaqueeny for me, especially since Jerzy has been forgiven (not only that, he gets romantic songs written for him). Even if Angel doesn't believe Zii's insistent claims that she didn't know, Jerzy doesn't even have that excuse.
In Dillon's case, accusing Jerzy of sleeping around with Angel (who was his ex - but still a close friend) because Dillon's jealousy over Angel's unapologetic flirting forced Jerzy to see his friend behind Dillon's back, is - as Dillon would rather place all the blame of his breakup on Angel's flirting than accepting the fact that his accusations of Jerzy's two timing him was the actual cause.
The guy doesn't have an stellar track record of trustworthiness, and he did turn out to still be attracted to Angel despite the "just friends" speech. Dillon made a scene like always but he turned out to be right.
And where's the proof that Angel was the one who instigated the fight? They walked in, saw two people they weren't a fan of and made a comment. Given that Zii is telling Angel to back down and Angel refuses to do so until Dillon stops (of which he refuses to do), it's more implied that Dillon started the fight, Angel defended themselves and Zii was trying to stop it.
It's not clear whether it was Dillon or Angel who threw the first punch, but given Angel is the one who started saying "what the hell are you doing here" when their eyes met and later restarted the fight jumping on Dillon after everyone calmed down, I'm inclined to think it was her. I don’t blame her or excuse him, just looks that way.
As for why Zii told Angel to stop first; because Angel clearly over powered Dillon in the scuffle - so, if you want a fight to stop, you're going to tell the one with the upper hand to stop first, not the one who's been pinned.


You tell the more agressive one, which may or may not be winning. I think she chose to tell Angel to stop because she attacked them both (or defended herself from Dillon and dragged Zii into it).
Seriously, I just don't see Angel blindly attacking either one on sight unless they were provoked (they had the opportunity to do so before; but didn't - what makes this situation any different?) I could see Dillon instigating the whole thing,though- as it's nothing new for him (case in point - how he instigated a fight with Sandra during the play. He announced it to the entire audience that he 'cheated' on Gary with Matt, which upset Sandra, catching Dillon's attention. He proceeded to insult her and accuse her of being responsible for his breakup with Matt (again - a false accusation), which goaded Sandra to insult back - which caused Dillon to lunge and physically attack her).
It's possible, I just think things point to her as the attacker. It doesn't matter since Dillon could have left instead of hitting back, so he's not an innocent victim. (Zii however got a black eye just for being close)

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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Spidrift » Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:56 pm

So far as I can work out from the implied sequence of events, Jerzy didn't think he was in a relationship with Angel when he goinked Zii. Zii certainly said she didn't think so at the time, and she was in no state to compose subtle lies. On that basis, their only mistakes were getting caught by Angel, and/or not realising that Angel had that huge possessive/stalker thing going for Jerzy.

Could Dillon have walked away from this fight after Angel started it? Maybe not; it's kind of hard to break away from someone who's swinging at you. Plus, yeah, drama queen. Zii might have had the option not to get involved, but she's shown in the past that she doesn't like to back down from Angel's bullshit.

But anyhow, as Judanas says, Dillon and Angel are playing Douchebag Tennis. Whose serve is it?
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Don Alexander » Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:49 pm

Morwen wrote:... otherkin ...
Had to look that one up... Wow. That's up there on the level of Agalmatophilia...

This brings me to a point which links to Dillon's behavior here.

I have a friend who is, for reasons I shall not delve into, sexually queer and genderqueer. They are active in the LGBT community and fight for LGBT rights (and they have noooo sense of humor when it comes to "gay jokes".)

At the same time as being a member of a group which fights for acceptance and inclusiveness of sexual orientations and gender expression "beyond the norm", they also... hate furries. They declared that people who seriously believe they are an animal soul in a human body to be "insane", while at the same time declaring they themselves are a mental gender opposite to the biological gender of their body.

As I've just now really looked up "otherkin", I've never discussed this with them (and likely do not need to), but this person goes so far in their disgust for people thinking they are non-humans in human bodies that they got really angry when I was talking with them and some other people in my roleplaying group about an in-game rule system concerning "soul animals" - where each person (especially important for NPCs) has a metaphoric animal associated with them that represents the core of their being. For example, a conniving, traitorous individual who presents themselves as a supporter of the PCs might have a viper as their soul animal, which indicates their true nature and would be a warning of upcoming treachery. Certain magic users, especially witches/warlocks, know a spell to read this soul animal, which can yield vital information.
My friend flat out refused to even think about what the soul animal of their PC could be - while, at the same time, having absolutely no problems playing the cleric in service of a completely fictional deity...

So yeah. In light of that, having a strongly homosexual man be bi- and transphobic at the same time is not that surprising after all... Though I've had the feeling Dillon is not involved in the LGBT scene at all. He's just supermegagay, doesn't mind if anyone knows that, and does his supermegagay thing. ;)
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Judanas » Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:51 am

Spidrift wrote:But anyhow, as Judanas says, Dillon and Angel are playing Douchebag Tennis. Whose serve is it?
I think unless Ref Ruby calls foul, it's back to Angel's serve. Maybe they'll be able to take it further, push this sport to new heights!

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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Azrael » Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:04 am

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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Artemisia » Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:44 pm

Don and Morwen. . .

I hope that I'm not going to step on anyone's toes with this...but, I have often wondered how much of what we have going on right now is that we live in a society and with languages that inhibit a lot of our brain's abilities to conceive beyond the very limited and chopped up bits that our society has often created. For instance, researchers have noted that there are up to five genders within humanity, but we as a society only acknowledge two (female and male). There is just so much of the human experience that our mindset has tried to cut away that our language and culture just doesn't accept it very well. Western society even in Europe has such a narrow view of human experience that I suspect things are lost or blocked off.

Unfortunately, some of that gets taken to extremes which are unhealthy.
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Morwen » Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:47 pm

First of all, I'll give you that language helps shape perception, but it's a two way street. Language is formed and evolves based on perception. If reality does not match your language, the language adapts or dies. Now, on to the meat of your post.

A quick search only reveals one instance of the "five genders" bit and I'm gonna go with the Wikipedia entry of it, since it includes what I found in other sources and is convenient enough.

Short version, the Bugis people of Indonesia recognise five genders in their society/culture. To put them in terms we can all understand, they are:
  • oroané: "cisgendered male"
  • makkunrai: "cisgendered female"
  • bissu: "combined" *
  • calabai: "transgendered female"
  • calalai: "transgendered male"

* bissu is a tricky one, cause it can include both cisgendered and intersex individuals, socially however they are treated as a fusion of the two traditional genders

Quite honestly? That's still 2 genders as far as I'm concerned. Male and Female.
Cis or Trans, at the end of the day you're either male or female (not necessarily the one you were born in).
Bissu are an extreme case, both because they are a cultural phenomenon and an aberration genetically speaking, so I can't consider them a gender in good conscience.

DISCLAIMER: Just because something is an aberration genetically/medically does not necessarily mean it's bad (though most come with a host of health issues) or that the person (un)lucky enough to get it is any less of a human. Whoever believes that is a shitty human being and should go earn a Darwin award. Genetic aberrations can be range from Down Syndrome to having red hair & blue eyes (Helloooo Nurse! :-* ), or even superpowers (a girl can hope, yeah?), neither is the "norm" therefore an aberration.
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by JerrBear » Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:49 pm

I'd technically be an aberration considering my neuromuscular condition. I wouldn't say I'm unlucky or lucky, it just is.
Don Alexander wrote:
Morwen wrote:... otherkin ...
Had to look that one up... Wow. That's up there on the level of Agalmatophilia...

This brings me to a point which links to Dillon's behavior here.

I have a friend who is, for reasons I shall not delve into, sexually queer and genderqueer. They are active in the LGBT community and fight for LGBT rights (and they have noooo sense of humor when it comes to "gay jokes".)

At the same time as being a member of a group which fights for acceptance and inclusiveness of sexual orientations and gender expression "beyond the norm", they also... hate furries. They declared that people who seriously believe they are an animal soul in a human body to be "insane", while at the same time declaring they themselves are a mental gender opposite to the biological gender of their body.
^I've also experienced this

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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Artemisia » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:19 pm

JerrBear...I'm not "neurotypical" either.

Morwen...I'm not just thinking in terms of language. Every story you have ever read contains the concepts which our culture passes on to each of us. Each story about a Prince saving a Princess reinforces the gender constructs and gender norms that our society demands. Most of these constructs date back only about four hundred or so years. The rigidity of our culture is mostly an Enlightenment phenomenon. There are elements of human experience, however, which defy the rigidity which our culture has built in.

However, with regards to language, defining an amorphous concept such as gender from one culture to another is often difficult. Take, for instance, among the Ottawa of ancient times. According to the research I have read up on, their concepts of gender included four different ones, and those four different genders had slight differences to them even when the concepts would be defined as "male", "female", "trans male", and "trans female".

Because our culture does not have a frame of reference within stories nor within the language or the overriding culture, many of the things that we as humans experience are getting muddled up as we try to define differences in gender identity, gender construct, and gender expression. I often find myself disagreeing, but I do try very hard to be respectful as we try to put an end to the rigidity of our English-Christian-Enlightenment culture.
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Maechris » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:54 pm

Morwen wrote:There's a saying you may have heard:
Various Artists wrote:Do not be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
It has been attributed to many over the last couple of centuries and the wording changes slightly over the years, but the meaning should be clear.


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Now that my creepy memetic declarations of agreement over the Internet are over...
JerrBear wrote:
Artemisia wrote: Unfortunately, I've been on the receiving end of a variety of hatred from just about everyone in the Community. The biphobia and transphobia isn't just among gay men. There are a number of biphobic and transphobic lesbians out there, and even within the Trans Community, there are people who can be very prejudiced. For those who wouldn't know, not all trans people identify as the Trans part, and unfortunately, that can mean a lot of prejudice getting thrown at someone who doesn't see being trans as being an identity. I'm probably mangling this explanation.

Simply put, there's a lot of hate within the Community, and Dillon is showing a lot of the usual signs of being one of those who has a very narrow view of gender and identity.
I can see that happening too easily.
To oversimplify the issue : Just because someone has suffered/is suffering from a lack of understanding, bigotry, and discrimination doesn't mean said person is incapable of bigotry and discrimination.
Feminists and lesbians being transphobic? Check.
Homosexuals being biphobic? Check
People of races other than the only race not suffering any visible discrimination in mixed communities developing tendencies to discriminate (usually not based on race) other people? Check.
Women encouraging other women into open misandry? Check.
Men repeating the same insults they were treated to in youth due to lack of physical attractiveness or somesuch traits to others? Check.

This just perpetuates the simple fact that people who suffer very easily join one of the two groups : Those who try to prevent others from suffering similar pains, and those who alleviate their traumas and pains by indiscriminately directing their anger towards people they can direct it to with little consequences. The problem is how big the second group seems to be right now.

Don Alexander wrote:(...)
1) For example, a conniving, traitorous individual who presents themselves as a supporter of the PCs might have a viper as their soul animal, which indicates their true nature and would be a warning of upcoming treachery.


2) So yeah. In light of that, having a strongly homosexual man be bi- and transphobic at the same time is not that surprising after all... Though I've had the feeling Dillon is not involved in the LGBT scene at all. He's just supermegagay, doesn't mind if anyone knows that, and does his supermegagay thing. ;)
1) Snakes and (to a lesser extent) wolves always get the short, villainous end of the stick. Poor schmucks.

2) Funnily enough, Dillon gets with Zii (who is so obviously bisexual, it *hurts*) MARVELOUSLY, but is biphobic towards men.
Basically a man who for his early life was probably feeling bad about the pressure to date girls wants to pressure guys into making a choice, while at the same time evidently having a knack for trying to get as many self-identified as straight men touch him in all sorts of intimate ways.
He's a gay guy who likes playing with straight-ish bicurious guys (arguably to the point of trying to make them actively bisexual, or at least confused) with a tendency to despise bisexual men and pressure bisexual men into making a choice one way or the other.
Oh, also the concept of gender identity doesn't register with him.
Objectively, the terrifying depth of this hypocrisy makes Dillon a quite well-written character. It also makes him easy to despise.

Artemisia wrote: Morwen...I'm not just thinking in terms of language. Every story you have ever read contains the concepts which our culture passes on to each of us. Each story about a Prince saving a Princess reinforces the gender constructs and gender norms that our society demands. Most of these constructs date back only about four hundred or so years. The rigidity of our culture is mostly an Enlightenment phenomenon. There are elements of human experience, however, which defy the rigidity which our culture has built in.
There's a certain thing to be said about nature vs nurture here.
Despite some people trying their hardest to enforce the idea everything is relative and a social construct, it is undeniable that certain mental tendencies in humans are based on the way their body and brain have developed, and there are even quantifiable differences between most 'male' and 'female' brains.
For every person that believes a Prince saving a Princess is reinforcing constructs and norms there's another who dreamed of such a scenario not from the moment they've read such a story but from the moment they started interacting with other people in a romantic manner. Whether the cause is hormonal balance, natural brain development, or something else, there is a biological basis that reinforces certain gender identities. It is not the only or the main factor in gender identity, but it can hardly be denied that tendencies we're born with and develop through our phenotype pitted against the environment we grow up in are a major factor in developing a gender identity.

Personally I believe it's not that things that reinforce basic notions of 'femininity' or 'masculinity' as they've been traditionally held for thousands of years are somehow inherently bad (some are, some aren't, as usual). It's how easily people who managed to conform to them react with horror to those that don't conform to them ('tomboy' is sometimes an insult, the eagerness with which effeminate men or tough women are called 'sissy' or 'butch' is a little scary, and the only way some people are able to identify genderqueer people is through porn misnomers), in any way, that is the problem.
Morwen wrote:A quick search only reveals one instance of the "five genders" bit and I'm gonna go with the Wikipedia entry of it, since it includes what I found in other sources and is convenient enough.
Aaand then, there's this wonderful concept where everyone has six or seven (I keep forgetting) gender "Points" on which they can be "Masculine, moderate, or feminine", where the number of gender combinations becomes so high, it ceases to have meaning.

I do fear that humanity is splitting between two extremes : Those that are too scared to admit gender may not be a black-and-white type of things, and those that are too eager to accept gender as a spectrum as broad as visible colors and an entirely mental construct.
I did once mention the idea of some over-eager LGBT folks in my country that wanted to make six year old boys in skirts a mandatory thing, right?
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Morwen » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:39 pm

Just a quick point since I'm about to go out (or should, anyway, waiting for mr slowpoke to be done with the phone so we can go).

@Artemisia: You may wish to consider that "gender stereotypes" and stories about ogres saving the princess exist -because- humanity works like that, instead of the other way around.

@Maechris: If you call me waifu again, I'mma one punch you so hard you'll wish you were selling spice with wolves and once you get your head back in one piece you'll start writing fairy tails about gangstas in black lagoons. B-)

I've seen feminists claiming biological sex is a social construct ...and the rest, in fear of not being inclusive enough, agreeing with them enthusiastically.

There's also that just because (in my opinion and till I see evidence to the contrary. if you have any... FEED ME SEYMOUR!) there are only two genders, it doesn't mean that there can be no "speciation" within the wider categories.
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