16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Artemisia » Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:29 pm

Morwen wrote:
wallweasels wrote:*snip*...and transsexual usually means you are were an Y and now you are a X, or vice versa.
Honest question here for whomever (whoever?) feels like answering:
Isn't transsexual technically used for people in the process of X-to-Y (or Y-to-X) and they are simply X or Y afterwards?
Just going by etymology and all...
The word usage tends to be kind of iffy. Personally, I define anyone whose process does not include transitioning of some form (hormones, surgery, etc) to be transsexual while everyone else (including Ang) to be transgender. And being transsexual is to transgender what being a square is to being a rectangle (that is, a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't a square). How the Trans Community uses these terms is a whole other kettle of wax here, and to be honest, I've never gotten along very well with the Community anyway.
wallweasels wrote:
Morwen wrote:I thought the term for the crossdressing bit was transvestite, or is that not PC anymore?

And just to be clear, I'm still going by etymology alone.
Most people I have known wouldn't be offended by transvestite...but its a tad dated and I bet someone is offended by it somewhere :p. Crossdressing (or just "CD") is a much more common usage now.
Plus, transvestite has connotations of sexual arousal. That is, someone who is a transvestite is thought to derive sexual pleasure from dressing as the opposite gender while someone who simply crossdresses is thought to derive happiness/satisfaction from doing so without it being a component of their sexual arousal.
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Cortez wrote:
Don Alexander wrote:I'm quite amused that Mr. Super-Duper Gay, Dillon, is spouting anti-queer nonsense worthy of a big-C Conservative. Previously thinking Angel was just an emo Harlequin guy, he has now quickly turned 180° and defines Angel by her boobs... /:)
Unfortunately, this sorta thing isn't uncommon. Like their are gay men that are biphobic for example.
Indeed. I've met plenty of Biphobic and Transphobic Gay Men. Despite our history of calling for accepting of people-as-they-are, it's not too uncommon to meet other Gay Men who aren't accepting. In my own experience with my community: Gay, Caucasian, Young, Able-bodied, and Not-Fat seems to be the preferred representation; especially as the politics start shifting towards more "socially conservative" attitudes. Though, I want to stress that YMMV with experience.

Edit: I don't believe that most people in the Gay Community are like I mentioned above. A little under half. I've also experienced the opposite.
Unfortunately, I've been on the receiving end of a variety of hatred from just about everyone in the Community. The biphobia and transphobia isn't just among gay men. There are a number of biphobic and transphobic lesbians out there, and even within the Trans Community, there are people who can be very prejudiced. For those who wouldn't know, not all trans people identify as the Trans part, and unfortunately, that can mean a lot of prejudice getting thrown at someone who doesn't see being trans as being an identity. I'm probably mangling this explanation.

Simply put, there's a lot of hate within the Community, and Dillon is showing a lot of the usual signs of being one of those who has a very narrow view of gender and identity.
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Spidrift » Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:52 pm

Cresset wrote:They're still friends in some level, which is why Zii bothered giving her health advice on the breast binding. Dillon and Angel aren't, so it wouldn't make sense for him to be trying to piss Angel off but not too much.
Or, Zii can't be bothered to hate Angel more than Angel actively earns, isn't as shitty a human being as Dillon, and doesn't mind grabbing the moral high ground when it's in reach.
Cresset wrote:I just don’t see the point in trying to start shit with someone while being careful not to hurt their feelings, might as well go all out and bring their mother into it. If you care about keeping things respectful, you should not even say anything to begin with.
It's not about not wanting to piss off the person you're insulting, it's about not being a crappy human being. If let fly with bigoted comments in any situation, you will be taken for a bigot. Anybody is entitled to assume that anger has exposed the real you. (Indeed, anger regularly does that.) Third parties watching the fight, or hearing about it. will conclude that (a) you're an arse, and (b) the other person wins the argument by default.

So unless you want to lose every argument (except in the eyes of other bigots) and the respect of every vaguely decent human being in the vicinity, don't be a jerk.
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Fluffy » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:22 pm

Cresset wrote:I get the impression Angel attacked Zii and she's just fighting back. Angel still blames her for banging her boyfriend, even if by accident.
If Angel hated Zii that much, they would have attacked her on sight before the concert. They dislike each other- no question about that; but probably not to the point of outright attacking one another.

Dillon, on the other hand... (what I think happened is, after Angel's outburst at seeing her two most disliked people on the planet, Dillon lunged at them - because, drama queen. Angel defended themselves against Dillon and - because Dillon fights like a girl - they got the upper hand. Zii got dragged into the fray trying to get Angel off of Dillon; hence why Angel refuses to listen to Zii's demand in stopping the fight until Dillon relents - implying Dillon is the one who instigated the fight in the first place, as he refused to knock off his horseshit- even so far as attacking Zii when he learned that she also slept with Jerzy.
Cortez wrote:They're still friends in some level, which is why Zii bothered giving her health advice on the breast binding. Dillon and Angel aren't, so it wouldn't make sense for him to be trying to piss Angel off but not too much.
They're far from friends, at this point. If Angel considered Zii a friend, they wouldn't insist on Jerzy not mentioning her name in their presence (or, saying Zii's name themselves). Dillon and Angel - however - loathe each other (Angel sees Dillon as a drama queen and a rival for Jerzy's affections while Dillon blames them for breaking him and Jerzy apart, despite the fact it was his own jealousy/accusations that pushed Jerzy away). Dillon being a spiteful little shit and deliberately insulting them is right up his alley.
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Treader » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:41 pm

Spidrift wrote: I honestly don't get that impression. Angel mostly presents as male, but switched to female when around Jerzy when she found a dress she liked, despite male probably being a safer bet with him. Then, she went into work as female, despite not having any particular target there. (She accepted the non-serious date with Richie, but that was an accident of the moment.) Angel's gender fluidity really does seem to be a matter of chance and whim.
Can't argue that - I don't know, I guess I got my impression since we only saw Fem-Angel around Richie the one time. (Was going to say Pet-Shop Boy, until I saw his name in your post, so thanks.)

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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Cresset » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:46 pm

Fluffy wrote:They're far from friends, at this point. If Angel considered Zii a friend, they wouldn't insist on Jerzy not mentioning her name in their presence (or, saying Zii's name themselves)
I chalk that up to Angel being a drama queen as well. She was supposedly angry enough to jump them on sight, but getting mildly tired was enough for them to stop.
Spidrift wrote:It's not about not wanting to piss off the person you're insulting, it's about not being a crappy human being. If let fly with bigoted comments in any situation, you will be taken for a bigot. Anybody is entitled to assume that anger has exposed the real you. (Indeed, anger regularly does that.) Third parties watching the fight, or hearing about it. will conclude that (a) you're an arse, and (b) the other person wins the argument by default.

So unless you want to lose every argument (except in the eyes of other bigots) and the respect of every vaguely decent human being in the vicinity, don't be a jerk.
Keywords being "any situation". Like I said, I like to avoid arguments because if you're still worried about "crossing a line", you're not that angry and the situation is not worth getting into a mess, so I leave or try to solve things amicably before it escalates. This means I probably get punched less often than a guy who second-guesses the effects of every other word to but is less selective over what he gets worked up about. I think it's a more consistent view. If you're attacking me at all, refraining from saying this or that isn't gonna make me like you more.
Last edited by Cresset on Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Morwen » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:47 pm

This is gonna be short, I promise!
Artemisia wrote:The word usage tends to be kind of iffy. Personally, I define anyone whose process does not include transitioning of some form (hormones, surgery, etc) to be transsexual while everyone else (including Ang) to be transgender. And being transsexual is to transgender what being a square is to being a rectangle (that is, a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't a square). How the Trans Community uses these terms is a whole other kettle of wax here, and to be honest, I've never gotten along very well with the Community anyway.
Ok, that's a distinction I have no problem at all agreeing with. Wouldn't Ang be transsexual though? Or did I miss the relevant strips? As for the Community "pfrfrftt" shall be the entirety of my response to them.
Artemisia wrote:Most people I have known wouldn't be offended by transvestite...but its a tad dated and I bet someone is offended by it somewhere :p. Crossdressing (or just "CD") is a much more common usage now.
Plus, transvestite has connotations of sexual arousal. That is, someone who is a transvestite is thought to derive sexual pleasure from dressing as the opposite gender while someone who simply crossdresses is thought to derive happiness/satisfaction from doing so without it being a component of their sexual arousal.
It's 2015 you guys, someone is ALWAYS offended somewhere. Still, a fine difference and I can see why one term would be preferred.
Artemisia wrote:Unfortunately, I've been on the receiving end of a variety of hatred from just about everyone in the Community. The biphobia and transphobia isn't just among gay men. There are a number of biphobic and transphobic lesbians out there, and even within the Trans Community, there are people who can be very prejudiced. For those who wouldn't know, not all trans people identify as the Trans part, and unfortunately, that can mean a lot of prejudice getting thrown at someone who doesn't see being trans as being an identity. I'm probably mangling this explanation.
Eh, in my experience your life is generally better if your identity is more than a simple label. It's kinda like being a vegan (cue the vegan forumites reaching for the pitchforks), fine if you do it, annoying if you have to tell the whole world about it every chance you get. It's the main reason I don't bother with the LGBT Community in general.
Artemisia wrote:Simply put, there's a lot of hate within the Community, and Dillon is showing a lot of the usual signs of being one of those who has a very narrow view of gender and identity.
I assume that you mean the LGBT Community here, not just the Trans one... and yes, there's lots of hate. Seen it, heard it, felt it, dealt with it. It's one third of why I don't bother with it. Ironically, the last third is that I think they've gone way too far. Call me old-fashioned, but if you start sprouting off about preferred pronounces, gender fluidity, otherkin and such, I'll just laugh in your face and cross you of as a deluded child before I move on with my life. Doubly so if you do it uninvited. So I am kinda with Dillon on this one (even if I think he does it to annoy Ang).

Honestly though, thanks for the answers ladies and gents. it was educational.
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Spidrift » Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:30 pm

Fluffy wrote:(what I think happened is, after Angel's outburst at seeing her two most disliked people on the planet, Dillon lunged at them - because, drama queen. Angel defended themselves against Dillon and - because Dillon fights like a girl - they got the upper hand. Zii got dragged into the fray trying to get Angel off of Dillon; hence why Angel refuses to listen to Zii's demand in stopping the fight until Dillon relents - implying Dillon is the one who instigated the fight in the first place, as he refused to knock off his horseshit- even so far as attacking Zii when he learned that she also slept with Jerzy.
But that's not what they said. Zii specifically demanded that Angel stop first, because Angel started first. Why should she lie there, and why should Angel let her? I'm taking that first panel as meaning what it says; Angel started the fight.

Then the violence pauses for a moment, and Angel calls Zii a "whore" - the sort of crude slut-shaming insult that we don't often see in these comics. Then Dillon briefly, stupidly lashes out at Zii, but Zii calms him down with a one-line comment - but Angel leaps screaming back into the fray. So in that strip, Angel is the most abusive person involved as well as the most violent.

As to why we got violence this time but not at the concert - who knows? It does look like Angel attacked Dillon but not (initially) Zii this time, and we later see Dillon trying very hard indeed to annoy Angel. So my guess would be that Angel was put on edge at the discovery of a room containing two people Angel hates with a passion, and then Dillon, who's doubtless been carefully nursing a grudge ever since the concert, said something stupid and snarky and bitterly harsh about emo morons or something, and Angel wigged out. Maybe there's a fifty-fifty chance of violence in these situations, and this is how the dice rolled. Or maybe Angel feels less constrained when there aren't complete strangers around.
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Fluffy » Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:52 pm

Cresset wrote:
Fluffy wrote:They're far from friends, at this point. If Angel considered Zii a friend, they wouldn't insist on Jerzy not mentioning her name in their presence (or, saying Zii's name themselves)
I chalk that up to Angel being a drama queen as well. She was supposedly angry enough to jump them on sight, but getting mildly tired was enough for them to stop.
Not wanting to say/hear someone's name doesn't make a person a drama queen. A drama queen is an attention seeker who goes into a rage after jumping to conclusions and tends to blow minor things way out of proportion. In Angel's case, disliking Zii (who was a friend), after catching her having sex with Jerzy (who was Angel's boyfriend, at the time) isn't blowing things out of proportion/making a big deal over nothing. In Dillon's case, accusing Jerzy of sleeping around with Angel (who was his ex - but still a close friend) because Dillon's jealousy over Angel's unapologetic flirting forced Jerzy to see his friend behind Dillon's back, is - as Dillon would rather place all the blame of his breakup on Angel's flirting than accepting the fact that his accusations of Jerzy's two timing him was the actual cause.

And where's the proof that Angel was the one who instigated the fight? They walked in, saw two people they weren't a fan of and made a comment. Given that Zii is telling Angel to back down and Angel refuses to do so until Dillon stops (of which he refuses to do), it's more implied that Dillon started the fight, Angel defended themselves and Zii was trying to stop it.

As for why Zii told Angel to stop first; because Angel clearly over powered Dillon in the scuffle - so, if you want a fight to stop, you're going to tell the one with the upper hand to stop first, not the one who's been pinned.

Seriously, I just don't see Angel blindly attacking either one on sight unless they were provoked (they had the opportunity to do so before; but didn't - what makes this situation any different?) I could see Dillon instigating the whole thing,though- as it's nothing new for him (case in point - how he instigated a fight with Sandra during the play. He announced it to the entire audience that he 'cheated' on Gary with Matt, which upset Sandra, catching Dillon's attention. He proceeded to insult her and accuse her of being responsible for his breakup with Matt (again - a false accusation), which goaded Sandra to insult back - which caused Dillon to lunge and physically attack her).
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Cortez » Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:49 pm

Morwen wrote: Eh, in my experience your life is generally better if your identity is more than a simple label. It's kinda like being a vegan (cue the vegan forumites reaching for the pitchforks), fine if you do it, annoying if you have to tell the whole world about it every chance you get. It's the main reason I don't bother with the LGBT Community in general.
Not really the same as being a Vegan or that simple.
Call me old-fashioned
No offense, but pretty much are. Time moves forward man.

Plus remember Dillon is the one painted as the jerk here.
Last edited by Cortez on Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Don Alexander » Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:01 pm

Morwen's not a man...
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Morwen » Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:05 pm

That's alright Don, nowdays I identify as an Apache helicopter

And yes, time does move forward... modern academia has turned into kindergarten for tweens and the future looks bleak.
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Judanas » Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:07 pm

Fluffy wrote:And where's the proof that Angel was the one who instigated the fight?
The fact that Zii expressly said they started it? In a lack of visual of the start of the fight, I'll go with the word of the person who did see it start.

Neither of them is coming off well right now. Dillon is worse for the moment but Angel/Angie had the upper hand in douchebaggery not long ago. I'm sure it will trade back soon.

Anyway, Dillon is a drama queen and a half. I'm leaning towards 'It's not actual bigotry so much as Dillon is required to always say the thing that will get the most people's attention, even in an argument'. If that means pulling a low blow? So be it. Drama > Politeness for Dillon.

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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Fluffy » Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:38 pm

Then it comes down to who instigated the fight? Angel, for attacking; or Dillon, for (quite possibly) instigating the attack?

Because, again, I can't see Angel attacking Dillon without Dillon provoking it.
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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Judanas » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:01 pm

Well, we have nothing to day that Dillon DID provoke it as we haven't seen anything. All we know about how it began is that Angel started it.

Failing anything to say that 'Dillon instigated it' I'm going to go with Angel doing it. Neither of them is a reasonable person at the best of times.

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Re: 16-12-15 Not tomboyish at all

Post by Spidrift » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:16 pm

Fluffy wrote:Not wanting to say/hear someone's name doesn't make a person a drama queen.
Indeed. Angel's attitude to Zii - refusing to say her name, pushing Jerzy out of the room when Zii is present - is somewhere beyond "drama queen" into "faintly scary and possibly psychotic". But Angel manages to be a drama queen in other ways.
Fluffy wrote:In Angel's case, disliking Zii (who was a friend), after catching her having sex with Jerzy (who was Angel's boyfriend, at the time) isn't blowing things out of proportion/making a big deal over nothing.
Point of information; Jerzy appears only to have been Angel's boyfriend at that time inside Angel's head. Zii, who was working closely with Angel at the time, didn't think he was; Jerzy, who is generally a fairly honourable guy, apparently initiated sex with Zii; and Jerzy himself kept saying to Dillon that his relationship with Angel was a long time ago.

Frankly, the only thing that stops Angel being rated as Jerzy's scary stalker is the fact that Jerzy encourages Angel's behaviour.
Fluffy wrote:In Dillon's case, accusing Jerzy of sleeping around with Angel (who was his ex - but still a close friend) because Dillon's jealousy over Angel's unapologetic flirting forced Jerzy to see his friend behind Dillon's back, is - as Dillon would rather place all the blame of his breakup on Angel's flirting than accepting the fact that his accusations of Jerzy's two timing him was the actual cause.
Nobody forced Jerzy to see Angel behind Dillon's back. Jerzy chose to do that of his own free will, rather than trying to resolve the whole triangular stupidity.
Fluffy wrote:And where's the proof that Angel was the one who instigated the fight? They walked in, saw two people they weren't a fan of and made a comment. Given that Zii is telling Angel to back down and Angel refuses to do so until Dillon stops (of which he refuses to do), it's more implied that Dillon started the fight, Angel defended themselves and Zii was trying to stop it.
Except for the whole, you know, Zii saying that Angel started it, and Angel not denying it.
Fluffy wrote:Seriously, I just don't see Angel blindly attacking either one on sight unless they were provoked (they had the opportunity to do so before; but didn't - what makes this situation any different?)
Gods know. Probably Dillon found some way to push Angel's button extra-hard. But Angel's screaming leap at Dillon and/or Zii from behind Dillon's back definitely re-started the fight. It was hardly the act of a pacifist.
Fluffy wrote:Because, again, I can't see Angel attacking Dillon without Dillon provoking it.
Of course Dillon provoked Angel. He was breathing on the same planet.
Last edited by Spidrift on Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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