23-10-15 No compliment

[themacnut]

Plus I think if Amber did try the horrible boss tack, I can actually see Dillon pulling her aside and going "What the hell Amber???"

[KittyHat]

And Amber is going to have severe difficulty hitting back for now, because her whole model of social interaction is built around sexuality. She can offer people sex as an incentive, or conceive of withholding it as a punishment, but she doesn't have a clue about the sort of basic-model snark-to-snark combat that even Ruby can manage. She could sink to vulgar abuse, but the family thing gets in the way there, and there's no guarantee that Ruby wouldn't win a screaming match. Or she could try undermining Ruby's sexual confidence - she's been unintentionally doing that for years - but it looks like Ruby is now armoured against that. Or for the nuclear option, she could try seducing Andy, but even if his pesky innocent niceness didn't get in the way, that would just confirm all Ruby's prejudices. Plus, there's Ray to consider now.

Or she could just try being a horrible boss, but, well, Ruby has a capacity for grim determination and a gift for efficiency...

I have a difficult time picturing Amber hitting back at all, really. Not to say that it is impossible, but it is not something I can bring myself to imagine. Can anyone recall the last time she showed any form of hostile behavior toward ... anyone?

Unless she's been hiding an aggressive side yet to be seen, I get the feeling her biggest problem in this may be that she is simply too nice to strike back at Ruby, or even to really know how to deal with this sort of thing ... a problem that Ruby does not have at all, to say the least. In fact, between her move toward using people constantly and this continued nastiness, Ruby is really veering dangerously close to "total unsympathetic b*tch" territory, while Amber ... honestly, I don't know what Amber will do about this, if anything.

If Dillon of all people is to be their "last, best hope" for reconciliation, though ... I don't know how this can possibly end well.

[Spidrift]

Amber really isn't all that nice. She's a user. She used Nathan mercilessly (as he deserved, but she didn't even hesitate), and she used Gary on their first meeting (not that he complained, but note her instinct). She's decent enough most of the time, but she has a broad amoral streak. And she showed distinct aggressive impulses toward "Yuki" (actually DiDi) that one time. That's typical; even Amber's anger and aggression are all about sex. Ruby was right about her.

However, she does tend to get her way through charm and seduction. She's reactive and not emotionally violent. All quite zen, but also a bit manipulative. Ruby might well say that she got what she wanted out of the younger Ruby - silence - just by taking it for granted.

But now Amber has run into someone she can't charm or seduce, and she's completely lost. She needs to know what Ruby's motivations are before she can offer to fulfil them, and she doesn't have a freaking clue. Which is stupid, because Ruby handed her a complete book of clues on the night she arrived, but Amber has kind of narrow range of situational understanding.

Anyway, Ruby doesn't know how to deal with this sort of thing either. At least, she has zero practical experience. But unlike Amber, she's worked out how to improvise. Benefits of watching too much TV instead of going out and getting laid, I guess.

In any case, it's just as well that Amber isn't inclined to hit back at Ruby, because then the situation would just spiral out of control and end miserably for everyone. She's going to have to get her head around Ruby's motivations - which will be good practice for her, because they're not that weird. They're just very ... un-Amber.

[Cortez]

Calling Ruby the B-Word seems pretty uncalled for Kitty. Especially since all Ruby did here was wait until Amber's check cleared to give her a compliment.

[Varanus]

I don't think "adequate" ever counts as a compliment unless it comes from someone who never says anything more complimentary.

Anyway, enjoying Ruby's newfound confidence, but as noted she could easily become a unlikable character if she continues to use said confidence to fuel her grudge rather than address the problems.

Quote removed. The DAMNed

[JoybuzzerX]

i'm hoping this chapter leads into ruby & amber making an effort to improve their relationship.

Sometimes a bitch is just a bitch

[KittyHat]

Amber really isn't all that nice. She's a user. She used Nathan mercilessly (as he deserved, but she didn't even hesitate), and she used Gary on their first meeting (not that he complained, but note her instinct). She's decent enough most of the time, but she has a broad amoral streak. And she showed distinct aggressive impulses toward "Yuki" (actually DiDi) that one time. That's typical; even Amber's anger and aggression are all about sex. Ruby was right about her.

I think it's a stretch to call her a "user." She used Nathan, but that was the exception, and as you noted, he completely deserved it. She has been nothing but kind to Gary, apart from accidentally getting him into a massive Swirly-fest, but I am taking that to be accidental ... if it turned out to be intentional, then yes, that would knock her down a few pegs in my estimation. Quite a few.

As it is, she still screwed that up, and it's a black mark in her history, but the fact that it was a one-off and that I believe it to be unintentional mitigates that significantly.

However, she does tend to get her way through charm and seduction.

That's so vague and broad that you could more or less apply it to anyone who ever manages to achieve or get anything and doesn't use violence to do it.

All quite zen, but also a bit manipulative. Ruby might well say that she got what she wanted out of the younger Ruby - silence - just by taking it for granted.

That is another way of saying that Ruby might choose not to take responsibility for her own actions and instead push that responsibility off on another. Very likely and in-character for Ruby, yes, but that doesn't make it right. No one held Ruby down and made her remain silent -- she did that all by herself, and the responsibility is 100 percent her own and no one else's.

One of my pet peeves, actually, is people trying to push responsibility for their actions off onto others. I take full responsibility for my actions, including all of my screw-ups, and I expect exactly as much and not one iota less from everyone else. I may fail at times to meet my own standard, but if I do, it is not intentional ... and that failure itself is still entirely my own and no one else's.

If I'm late? Unless someone held me down and made me late, that is entirely on me. If I receive and then pass on false information? The fault is mine for not checking it out first. If I don't speak up? I have no one to blame but myself.

I think that may be a lot of what rubs me the wrong way about Ruby. To me, she really has very little in the way of a leg to stand on and in fact owes some profuse apologies for her conduct to date. I don't expect to see them, but she owes them.

I mean, don't get me wrong -- I think it's great that she's finding herself and coming to accept herself. That's fantastic and to be applauded. However, she's also rapidly veering off-course toward Tatiana territory, and that is ... significantly less admirable.

[brasca]

That might be true if Ruby was constantly guilt tripping Amber about it, but she does not. She never even wanted to stay with her sister in the first place. That was their parents' idea and she did not want to tell them why she did not want to live with Amber because it would begin a line of questions that she did not want to answer. Keeping Amber's secret may just be the tip of this animosity iceberg, but we have yet to truly explore this issue. At the end of the day Ruby tolerates Amber more than likes her which is sad, but unless she actively sabotages Amber's career she is hardly Tatiana.

[Spidrift]

Sometimes a bitch is just a bitch

But Ruby just isn't, usually. Seriously - all her dealings with other people than Amber, that we've seen, have been formally polite at worst, quite friendly at best. Most people seem to find it quite easy to like her, once they get through a thin shell. Well, she was a bit spikey at Dillon early on, when he was being annoyingly pushy, but they've settled into that weird friendship.

It is just with Amber that she cuts up rough. Which I'm sure that she shouldn't, but... It seems that Ruby can be bitchy in that one case, but she's not, in general, a bitch.

However, she does tend to get her way through charm and seduction.

That's so vague and broad that you could more or less apply it to anyone who ever manages to achieve or get anything and doesn't use violence to do it.

Most people will use those techniques occasionally, when they can, absent any moral qualms. My point is that it seems to me, from admittedly limited evidence, to be Amber's default mode of operation. Casting-couch it with Nathan, detach Gary from Yuki by enticing him into bed, using a show of sadness to land some soapy fun time, and so on. Well, she's good at it, she's got the looks, and it's a non-violent mode of operation; there are worse defaults. And her goals usually range from the innocuous to the admirable. But it still leaves me thinking of her as a bit of a user.

That is another way of saying that Ruby might choose not to take responsibility for her own actions and instead push that responsibility off on another. Very likely and in-character for Ruby, yes, but that doesn't make it right. No one held Ruby down and made her remain silent -- she did that all by herself, and the responsibility is 100 percent her own and no one else's.

Oh come on. Ruby did not remain silent for her own satisfaction. She made it clear in her early appearances that she disliked doing so.

We don't actually know what exactly passed between Ruby and Amber after that teenage party, but we know that Amber knew that it had happened, and that Ruby was keeping her secret. (A secret that was defnitely of Amber's making in the first place; she's perfectly free to tell her parents about her porn career, but she's made it clear that she is nervous of doing so.) So Ruby must have kept the secret, despite disliking the situation, either because Amber asked her to, or because she feared what finding out would do to her parents.

In the former case, responsibility goes entirely back to Amber; Ruby's worst crime is doing her sister a favour. In the latter case, Ruby's crime is trying to protect her parents from distress. Excuse me if I don't think the worst of her for that.

Or Ruby could have told the truth and let the skies fall - blown her sister's cover, distressed her parents, sat in the middle of the ensuing shitstorm feeling smug. Well, I guess that'd be morally immaculate.

I think that may be a lot of what rubs me the wrong way about Ruby. To me, she really has very little in the way of a leg to stand on and in fact owes some profuse apologies for her conduct to date. I don't expect to see them, but she owes them.

Apologies for what exactly? The rudeness to Amber, sure; that's a mess that needs clearing up. But the clearing up needs to include helping Amber to see that not everyone shares her comfort with lying to loved ones, else she'll never understand how all this happened. For being a bit spikey with Dillon? That seems to be water under the bridge by now. For bouncing a few guys into modelling for her calendar? That does seem to be consensual...

[Cortez]

I think that may be a lot of what rubs me the wrong way about Ruby. To me, she really has very little in the way of a leg to stand on and in fact owes some profuse apologies for her conduct to date. I don't expect to see them, but she owes them.

No she doesn't. None of what happened to her in her childhood was her fault.

Her parents be favoritism was not Ruby's fault either.

Amber could have always just told her parents the truth.

For being a bit spikey with Dillon? That seems to be water under the bridge by now.

And that was Dillon's fault for being pushy anyway.


Anyway, can you all stop with the gendered slurs?

[JoybuzzerX]

Sometimes a bitch is just a bitch

But Ruby just isn't, usually. Seriously - all her dealings with other people than Amber, that we've seen, have been formally polite at worst, quite friendly at best. Most people seem to find it quite easy to like her, once they get through a thin shell. Well, she was a bit spikey at Dillon early on, when he was being annoyingly pushy, but they've settled into that weird friendship.

It is just with Amber that she cuts up rough. Which I'm sure that she shouldn't, but... It seems that Ruby can be bitchy in that one case, but she's not, in general, a bitch.

I will give that Amber shouldn't expect compliments from Ruby just because she's paying her to be her assistant, but then I would think that of anyone who was her assistant.

Her reaction and attitude...well...bitch to her sister at the very least and something Amber should step up to her about and if Dillion is her (Amber's) friend, maybe he should step in about it as well. Amber's been the one helping Ruby out and treating her great. Ruby seems to be paying it all back very negatively.

[Spidrift]

Sure, sure, Ruby's attitude to Amber is wrong. Even if she has legitimate issues with Amber (which I personally think she does), she's being childish. She's stuck in pre-teen kid sister mode.

But my point is that this a specific thing toward this one individual. It's not typical of Ruby's personality.

[KittyHat]

I will give that Amber shouldn't expect compliments from Ruby just because she's paying her to be her assistant, but then I would think that of anyone who was her assistant.

Her reaction and attitude...well...bitch to her sister at the very least and something Amber should step up to her about and if Dillion is her (Amber's) friend, maybe he should step in about it as well. Amber's been the one helping Ruby out and treating her great. Ruby seems to be paying it all back very negatively.

Yeah, I think we're definitely on the same page here. I sure wouldn't put up with it (whether it was happening to me or a friend of mine), and neither should Amber or Dillon. If I were Dillon in this situation, though, I'd probably have a talk with Amber about it later first before just jumping right between sisters.

I'm not quite ready to denounce Ruby as an unrepentant bitch, but she's definitely pushing in that direction in my estimation. They really, really need to have a "come to Jesus" meeting with her.

I don't feel like arguing about it anymore with the others; I realize opinions differ, and enough has been said about what we all think about it. But I think you and I are definitely on the same page here, and I guess I'm glad I'm not the only one who's seeing it.

No she doesn't. None of what happened to her in her childhood was her fault.

Her parents be favoritism was not Ruby's fault either.

Amber could have always just told her parents the truth.

Okay, I said I wasn't interested in arguing anymore, and I'm still not, but let me just be clear about one thing: I have exactly zero interest in what others did. Ruby is responsible for Ruby's actions. You can't control what others will or won't do, but you can control what you do. My judgment of Ruby is based entirely on her own actions because that's what she controls.

Based entirely on her own actions, I find her behavior extremely inappropriate, and I don't feel that her circumstances mitigate that meaningfully. And don't even try to talk to me about difficult childhoods as an excuse because Ruby seriously has nothing on me there.

Just so we're clear.

Double post merged. The DAMNed

[Spidrift]

Judging people purely on their own actions, regardless of consequence or context, sounds fine - but then Ruby's only substantial crime is being rude to Amber. (Oh, and a bit of lying by omission to her parents.) And you do then have to apply the same standards to Amber. Her charge sheet includes a lot of lying by omission to her family, which is then compounded by the act of dumping an inexperienced 14-year-old girl deep in the emotional shit with no support. Oh, and there's also the sexual assault on Gary.

(I'd leave it to Nathan's wife to assess Amber's actions with regard to Nathan and the apartment.)

I don't actually judge Amber that way, but I assume that you do. Just so we're clear.

[KittyHat]

Judging people purely on their own actions, regardless of consequence or context

No.

I rejected the notion that the "context" in Ruby's case amounts to a valid excuse for her objectionable behavior, but I didn't say that context and consequence are never relevant.