16-10-15 What a surprise

[KittyHat]

Thing is - Jerzy never cheated on Dillon; he remained faithful the entire time they were an item.

The only thing Jerzy did was lie when he went to spend time with Angel; something of which he was forced to do because Dillon just could not accept the fact that two people can still remain friends after breaking up and was ridiculously jealous of Angel/unjustifiably suspicious of Jerzy because Angel made it no secret that s/he wanted Jerzy back - despite Jerzy repeatedly reassuring Dillon that the feeling wasn't mutual.

It was only after Dillon broke up with him that Jerzy relented and gave in to Angel's whims; so, it does not count as cheating.

So in other words, Jerzy wanted to spend time with Angel, who made no secret about trying to steal Jerzy away, and Dillon was against it because he was concerned that Angel was trying to steal Jerzy away.

Then Jerzy lied and spent time with Angel anyway.

Then Angel stole Jerzy away.

Yeah ... boy, Dillon was sure totally wrong about all of that.

Edit: And let me be clear about something, here: there is no such thing as "the only thing he did was lie" ... as if that were a minor infraction unworthy of serious consideration. Lying is exactly the point! The problem with infidelity is not that you're having sex with another person, or open relationships could never work; it's that you're deceiving your partner and doing it without his/her knowledge and consent.

Relationships are built on trust. If there's no trust, there's no relationship. So yes, Jerzy lied. He lied so that he could spend time with Angel, who was blatantly trying to steal him away, and no matter what he said about it, he was really already halfway into Angel's arms, or he wouldn't have wound up there at the conclusion of the whole debacle. That's just common sense -- nobody just suddenly winds up in a sexual relationship with someone else in a vacuum, without desire and interest already having been in place.

Jerzy basically did everything that is cheating while he was supposedly with Dillon except the actual sex, which is really pretty trivial given it's perfectly possible to have sex with another person while maintaining an honest, healthy relationship. For all intents and purposes, he did cheat.

Dillon's no saint, but stop trying to fit Jerzy with a halo, because it in no way fits him either.

[Fluffy]

Then, by your definition, Jerzy and Dillon's relationship was doomed from the get go because Dillon had no trust in Jerzy's word that nothing was going on between him and Angel(despite Ange's constant flirting and Jerzy's repeated refusal of his/her advances).

So, was Jerzy supposed to choose between his new boyfriend and old lover/best friend? Sorry, but I don't think anyone should be forced into making that kind of decision.

Yes, Angel still wanted Jerzy - s/he made no secret about that; but Jerzy also made it no secret to her/him (and Dillon) that he only had eyes for Dillon. But, Dillon refused to believe in Jerzy's commitment to him (probably because he was projecting Matt's infidelity unto his new boyfriend), forcing Jerzy to visit his friend in secret.

Yes,I think Jerzy should have been honest with Dillon from the get go; but I can see his reasons for staying silent about it.

[Spidrift]

Jerzy had a jealous boyfriend and a pushy ex who wouldn't take no for an answer. That's a sucky place to be, and sure, nobody should have that inflicted on them (if they don't let it happen deliberately), but once you're there, you really have to get rid of one or the other. Yes, if you don't do that, the situation is doomed.

(Or, arguably, sensibly, you get rid of both.)

[KittyHat]

Then, by your definition, Jerzy and Dillon's relationship was doomed from the get go because Dillon had no trust in Jerzy's word that nothing was going on between him and Angel(despite Ange's constant flirting and Jerzy's repeated refusal of his/her advances).

Yes, by my definition, Jerzy and Dillon's relationship was doomed from the start because Dillon did not trust Jerzy's word, which was a good call because Jerzy blatantly lied in order to be able to spend time with the person who was obviously trying to steal him away and whom he'd ultimately wind up replacing Dillon with.

Seriously, would you do this to someone you're in a relationship with? And actually feel justified? Because if you did do it, I hope you realize at least on some level that your partner would have every right to be furious and feel betrayed over your behavior.

Yes, Angel still wanted Jerzy - s/he made no secret about that; but Jerzy also made it no secret to her/him (and Dillon) that he only had eyes for Dillon.

Except for the part where that obviously wasn't true, and Dillon was completely right. Otherwise, Jerzy wouldn't have promptly wound up with Angel.

Common sense.

But, Dillon refused to believe in Jerzy's commitment to him

And he was right not to believe it ...

forcing Jerzy to visit his friend in secret.

I'm sure many an unfaithful person would like to pretend that their lying, deceitful ways were the "fault" of their partner. No one forced Jerzy to do anything; he chose to be a creep all by himself.

Jerzy had a jealous boyfriend and a pushy ex who wouldn't take no for an answer.

The thing is, it wasn't strange or excessive for Dillon to not want Jerzy spending time with his pushy ex who wouldn't take no for an answer.

I think if you polled 100 people with the question, "Would you be cool with your significant other spending time with his/her pushy ex who wants to get back together and won't take no for an answer? And while you aren't present, to boot?" you would probably find that the majority answer "no," with some responding "HELL NO" instead. And furthermore, if you polled 100 honest people who are serious about their relationships with the question, "Would you want to hang out with your pushy ex who wants to get back together and won't take no for an answer?" you'd probably get the same general results.

Dillon has done a lot of extreme, inappropriate things. Objecting to Jerzy hanging around Angel was not one of them.

And the fact that Jerzy immediately wound up with Angel afterward makes it pretty clear he was halfway there already. He didn't try to win Dillon back, and he didn't ditch them both and look for new fish. No, he went straight to Angel. Read between the lines, folks: that isn't coincidence. He had one foot in that pool already, and if he was being remotely honest with himself, he on some level knew it, too.

Dillon was completely right about the situation.

Here, let me try this another way, because I really want to try to make my point clear, not just argue for the sake of arguing.

Forget about Dillon, Jerzy and Angel. Instead, suppose you personally are in a romantic relationship with someone. Now suppose you want to go hang out with a friend or friends. Let's consider some scenarios:

Scenario 1: You say to your significant other, "Hey, I'm going to go hang out with some friends." This is reasonable, and unless you have an unbelievably controlling SO, it shouldn't be an issue at all unless you're doing it so often that you're neglecting him/her.

Scenario 2: You say to your significant other, "Hey, I'm going to go hang out with that one friend you know I find attractive." (Okay, you don't actually say it like that, but you know what I mean.) This is ... somewhat less reasonable, but it might still be acceptable if you've built up enough trust together, and your SO is confident it's strictly platonic regardless of your attraction.

Scenario 3: You say to your significant other, "Hey, I'm going to go hang out with my ex who is just a friend now." We're getting into cray-cray territory here. A lot of people would draw the line at this point, and it isn't strange that they would. However, this still might get a pass if your trust is just that strong, especially if your SO has gotten to know and be comfortable with your ex, and even more especially if your ex is with someone else already. But still ... only maybe on this one. No promises.

Scenario 4: You say to your significant other, "Hey, I'm going to go hang out with my ex who is desperately trying to win me back and won't take no for an answer." We didn't just cross the Rubicon, folks; we rocketed over it at supersonic speeds. Just suggesting you want to do this is grounds for your SO to regard you with extreme suspicion! I mean, come on, seriously, think about it: if you're actually faithful to your SO, why would you even want to hang out with your clingy, pushy ex who is spending every moment trying to win you back? How could that possibly be fun? At what point would anyone really say, "Gee, I'm having an awesome time having to fend off constant uncomfortable, inappropriate advances with this person who only wants to get into my pants, while I don't want anything of the sort"? Your SO is right to be suspicious because there's nothing about this kind of experience that could possibly be pleasant for you unless you're entertaining actually giving in to those advances. To even suggest doing this -- hanging out with your ex who's trying to win you back -- is so far beyond inappropriate, I can't believe I'm actually having to explain to anyone why it is!

TRIPLE post merged. The DAMNed

[Spidrift]

Dillon has done a lot of extreme, inappropriate things. Objecting to Jerzy hanging around Angel was not one of them.

I'll pretty much agree with that, but I'd also say that Dillon's way of expressing that sensible suspicion was, well, predictably flaky. Following Jerzy around while disguised in drag was not a terribly sane thing to do, just for a start.

But, equally, Jerzy had no right to complain about that. He said before all this blew up that he loved the way Dillon "wore his heart on his sleeve" (that is, acted like a nutcase drama queen at the drop of a hat). If he wasn't dealing with Dillon, Jerzy might just have hoped to talk Dillon down from any anger if and when his seeing Jerzy came out. But when he was dealing with the Dillon he claimed that he loved - not a chance. He knew what he was getting into there.

In other words, nobody comes out of this especially well, but Jerzy completely detonated his earlier Only Sane Man image.

[KittyHat]

I'll pretty much agree with that, but I'd also say that Dillon's way of expressing that sensible suspicion was, well, predictably flaky. Following Jerzy around while disguised in drag was not a terribly sane thing to do, just for a start.

Well, you're definitely not wrong about that.

In other words, nobody comes out of this especially well, but Jerzy completely detonated his earlier Only Sane Man image.

Agreed.

[LegendaryKroc]

TRIPLE posting? Holy crap!

Let me just say that I wouldn't be the jealous type around my SO's pushy ex without a damn good excuse, and I don't subscribe to the idea that Dillon had the authority to say, "As long as you're in a relationship with me, you can't hang out with this person. At all."

And for the record, anyone who says they've seduced 27 men away from their girlfriends isn't going to receive the slightest hint of sympathy from me regarding matters of relationship fidelity.

[Spidrift]

SO = Significant Other. If you have a Significant relationship with someone, that's ... significant. It's a perfectly good excuse for taking an interest in their fidelity, and whether they're putting that fidelity under stress by hanging out with someone who is obsessively determined to undermine it. Trust them if you choose; that's admirable. But feel free to ask why they insist on stress-testing that trust. I might trust someone with my car keys, but I'd then wonder why they spent their time hanging out with professional car thieves.

And Dillon thought that he'd been lied to twenty-seven times. Well, Dillon is an idiot. (He had been lied to, but not the way he thought.) But one lesson he could take from that is that, as the sainted Dr House told us, People Always Lie.

[LegendaryKroc]

Point taken. I suppose the matter is also subject to your answer to the question, "What is cheating?" and whether or not your SO has a history of relapsing.

[Spidrift]

Dillon's SOs (plural) do have a history of relapsing. That's because Dillon is an idiot with lousy judgement, but it is nonetheless his experience.

[Fluffy]

Jerzy had a jealous boyfriend and a pushy ex who wouldn't take no for an answer. That's a sucky place to be, and sure, nobody should have that inflicted on them (if they don't let it happen deliberately), but once you're there, you really have to get rid of one or the other. Yes, if you don't do that, the situation is doomed.

(Or, arguably, sensibly, you get rid of both.)

I'd say you get rid of the suspicious new lover.

Yeah, someone who persistently makes their desire for you an obvious thing can be annoying; but, as long as they're not forcing themselves upon you, it can be ignored. If your new lover can't trust the fact that when you say you're faithful to them - no matter how many times you make that point very clear to them; even in front of their rival - and they start spying on you in the hopes of catching you in the act; kick their sorry ass to the curb.

Folks say that Angel was borderline psychotic with her lusting after Jerzy; and I won't argue with it, as s/he seemed obsessed with getting him back. But s/he was also honest about their behavior/actions. Dillon,on the other hand, wasn't exactly coming off as sane boyfriend - what with his unjustified suspicions and stalking Jerzy in the hopes of catching him in the act (ignoring the fact that he himself wasn't exactly faithful to Jerzy when they were dating, what with eyeing other men, flirting with others and barely nearly being seduced by Matt in the men's bathroom).

[Spidrift]

If anybody was asking me, I'd definitely advise dumping both of them. And then, most importantly, asking yourself why you've turned into a frikkin' lunatic magnet.

Yeah, Angel was open about that desire to get Jerzy back. But that just means "blatant nutcase" rather than "subtle nutcase". Given a drama queen like Dillon as the third point on the triangle, that made a crash and burn inevitable - but if Dillon had been the sanest, most patient and tolerant guy in the world - well, the relationship would probably have survived, but Angel would have turned into a perpetually clingy, aggravating, mopey pain in the damn arse.

So Jerzy needs to ask himself if the problem is actually with his nutso taste in lovers.

[KittyHat]

Yeah, Angel was open about that desire to get Jerzy back. But that just means "blatant nutcase" rather than "subtle nutcase". Given a drama queen like Dillon as the third point on the triangle, that made a crash and burn inevitable - but if Dillon had been the sanest, most patient and tolerant guy in the world - well, the relationship would probably have survived, but Angel would have turned into a perpetually clingy, aggravating, mopey pain in the damn arse.

I disagree. If Dillon had been the sanest guy in the world, he couldn't have been that patient and tolerant about it because there is no version of "I want to hang out with my clingy ex who's desperately trying to break us up and get me back and won't take no for an answer" that makes any sense whatsoever apart from "because I'm thinking about cheating on you." It just doesn't make sense any other way. There's no good reason for Jerzy to have wanted to hang out with Angel. There's even less of a good reason for him to lie about it!

Plenty of bad reasons, though ...

If Dillon had been the sanest guy in the world, he'd have dropped that pig like a bad habit the moment he discovered the lie. If your so-called significant other is that untrustworthy, the relationship is fundamentally toxic and is doomed no matter what you do. Better to save yourself the heartache and stress and get out early, then go looking for a better person to spend your time with.

[Spidrift]

Jerzy was claiming to see Angel as a childhood friend who needed moral support. That is, actually, a somewhat plausible excuse.

A hypothetical super-nice-guy Dillon might have seen that as something Jerzy had to do, so Jerzy didn't have to lie about it... But that just flags Jerzy as naive about Angel's likely behaviour, of course.

[KittyHat]

That is one way for it to flag Jerzy, yes ...

I guess I just have trouble believing he's really that stupid. I think on some level, he knew exactly what he was really doing, and even if he didn't, someone that stupid (too stupid to live, really) still wouldn't be worth staying with (for a hypothetical sane Dillon) anyway.

I don't know. I just kind of feel like people have gotten biased by their feelings about Dillon, because looking at the Dillon/Jerzy thing, I don't see Dillon doing a whole lot wrong (zany behavior aside), and I see Jerzy doing majorly wrong things. I honestly don't really like Jerzy very much at this point, in fact ... though I admit one could argue that Dillon had this coming. Maybe he did.

Quote removed. The DAMNed