21-04-15 I am afraid

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Dr. Jamming
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by Dr. Jamming »

wiseguy wrote:dr Jamming, he is not simply attracted to guys, he is attracted to feminine guys, and he is 100% top(or seems to be)

things are not simple

many couples are 2 bears, or 2 fem guys and not one bear and one feminine guy, and EVEN than, one finds the surprise that the "feminine guy" is the top and the "bear guy" is the bottom
It's the complexity of his sexuality that I'd like Jerzy to admit. He's absolutely attracted to feminine guys, and also hot boyish looking women, as it turns out, even while sober.

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Bambikles
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by Bambikles »

Spidrift wrote:
Bambikles wrote:Oh God, a passing interest ? Gainsbourg is like the god of Francophone music ! Every French/francophone musician knows him and more or less takes some inspiration from him. He's legendary.
And yet, to Anglophone audiences, he was a weird ugly Frenchman with an inexplicable talent for pulling well above his class. Repeatedly.
I'm not sure of what "pulling above one's class" means, I systematically get "punching above one's weight" in google. Guess it's the same. In France, the most important thing is his music, but he acknowledged himself that he was ugly. He even made a song about it "Des laids, des laids" ("about the ugly ones, about the ugly ones")
Spidrift wrote:
Bambikles wrote:
Artemisia wrote:What song are you all talking about?
This one.
That's probably one of the rare occasions when an audio link requires an NSFW flag.
This is actually one of the tamest among his sexually provocative works. I deemed it quite innocuous by nowadays standards, almost romantic. Less sexually agressive, for sure. He wrote and sang far worse in terms of explicit lyrics the 80s, and it wouldn't probably be possible to release it today.

tanonev
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by tanonev »

Dr. Jamming wrote:
wiseguy wrote:dr Jamming, he is not simply attracted to guys, he is attracted to feminine guys, and he is 100% top(or seems to be)

things are not simple

many couples are 2 bears, or 2 fem guys and not one bear and one feminine guy, and EVEN than, one finds the surprise that the "feminine guy" is the top and the "bear guy" is the bottom
It's the complexity of his sexuality that I'd like Jerzy to admit. He's absolutely attracted to feminine guys, and also hot boyish looking women, as it turns out, even while sober.
Why does Jerzy's sexuality have to be complicated? There's nothing wrong with being attracted to only part of someone (even couples who are happily married can think of aspects of their partners that they don't like; what makes them happily married is that they choose to focus on the aspects they do like, not that the aspects they don't like don't exist). If in DC Teddy were to become interested in Kimmy but not Al, would we consider him anything other than straight for doing so? In fact, it's arguably disrespectful to Angel's gender identity to claim that Jerzy can't be strictly gay simply because he finds some aspects of Angel (in particular, the male aspects) attractive.

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Spidrift
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by Spidrift »

Dr. Jamming wrote:While there are some minor differences in tone between the two strips, it's worth noting that Yuki's depth of crazy is literally Raving in the streets Mad Dog insane, complete with vivid hallucinations, blackouts, fugues, and conduct that by all means should see her locked up in prison or a psychiatric ward.
Yes, and the fact that she isn't safely locked up somewhere they serve food with plastic spoons is the big reminder that she's, like, comedy nuts. We're allowed to just laugh at her loopiness the way we're allowed to laugh at major road traffic accidents in a Bugs Bunny cartoon. Angel seems to me to be written that much more realistically, making her a realistic obsessive stalker. And realistic obsessive stalkers are scary and do horrible stuff.

So I guess I'm resorting to cheap paradox; the fact that Angel isn't as dementedly violent as Yuki makes her more scary.
Dr. Jamming wrote:But What I was really getting at is that it's encouraging to see another side of Angel, and that she's not also some sort of horrible nasty girlfriend whom Jerzy should obviously hate being with, but that she's actually kind of sweet, and even considerate.
I understand that real-life crazy stalkers can seem quite reasonable until you listen to what they're saying for long enough...
Dr. Jamming wrote:Controlled flight into terrain is an incredibly apt metaphor for how Dillon responded to interference, by the way. I'm ambivalent about whether it would have been better if he'd stayed with Jerzy, or if it will be better if/ when they get back together.
I suspect that they'll get back together some time, but it'll be a long and twisty road getting there. And he probably needed the break-up to give him a hard enough reality check, and to give Ruby a hook to hang her style of common sense on.
Bambikles wrote:I'm not sure of what "pulling above one's class" means, I systematically get "punching above one's weight" in google.
Sorry, the phrasing was a little cryptic. That's "pulling" as in "pulling girls", i.e. attracting women into his bed. ("Going on the pull" is going out with intent to find and seduce a member of the opposite sex, and yes it's a somewhat sexist and slightly crude image really.) In a country where his music was largely unknown except for one banned novelty number, the fact that someone who looked like he'd be preemptively punched in the face got to shag Bardot and Birkin was the kind of thing that made people in general and heterosexual males in particular go The Fuck?, despairingly. At least Roger Vadim had the decency to look vaguely handsome.
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cellabella
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by cellabella »

tanonev wrote:
Why does Jerzy's sexuality have to be complicated? There's nothing wrong with being attracted to only part of someone (even couples who are happily married can think of aspects of their partners that they don't like; what makes them happily married is that they choose to focus on the aspects they do like, not that the aspects they don't like don't exist). If in DC Teddy were to become interested in Kimmy but not Al, would we consider him anything other than straight for doing so? In fact, it's arguably disrespectful to Angel's gender identity to claim that Jerzy can't be strictly gay simply because he finds some aspects of Angel (in particular, the male aspects) attractive.
Sorry, but I think you're missing the point. Angel is not agender, meaning genderless. Xe is genderfluid, meaning that xe is male, female or sometimes some combination of both. On the times Angel is ID'ing as female, if xe is having sex with Jerzy, then Jerzy is having sex with a female, not with a "female with male aspects." IMO, that is more disrespectful to state.

And you blew away your own point with the DC example. Yes, if Teddy were into Kimmy and not Al, he would be considered straight. Alchemy is genderfluid in the literal sense. Kimmy is female. Al is male. If Teddy were to be interested in both, then he'd be bisexual. If Sandra were to have penetrative sex with Senna, she would be having a lesbian experience because Senna is a female with a penis. It's not the other person's place to define their partner's gender. If at any time Angel is ID'ing as a woman and they have sex, Jerzy is having sex with a woman. Same thing when Angel ID's as male.

Jerzy, for whatever reason, appears to be biphobic and is participating in bi-erasure. I have no idea what that reason is. My suspicion is that something happened with Angel where Jerzy felt that his only "out" was to say that he had no interest whatsoever in women, figuring that Angel would bow out gracefully. This current situation works for Angel because xe can believe that xe is the "exception to the rule." If Jerzy begins manifesting interest in other females - and considering this turn of events and the fact that he has banged Zii, this isn't as far outside the realm of possibility as it seems - this is going to be a huge, huge problem, and I'm starting to think that a Ruby/Jerzy coupling is going to be in the offing.

tanonev
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by tanonev »

Since when was it shown/established/implied that Jerzy had sex with/was attracted to Angel while Angel was ID'ing as female? I was under the impression that Jerzy was attracted to Angel while IDing as male but not while as female (my bad for using "aspects"--genderqueer--as opposed to "times"--genderfluid, though the point remains). Looking at the strips again, there's no clear indicator in either direction, but if we take Jerzy's orientation at face value, then my interpretation is more likely.

EDIT: Also, just in case this has been forgotten: Jerzy has every right to identify as gay while having consensual sex with women who know he identifies as gay. Choosing a label has always been a tradeoff between external and internal identity, between familiarity and accuracy. Jerzy's orientation might be more complicated than the label "gay" might suggest, but regardless of whether it is, he's the one who gets to choose what label to apply to himself.

cellabella
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by cellabella »

tanonev wrote:Since when was it shown/established/implied that Jerzy had sex with/was attracted to Angel while Angel was ID'ing as female? I was under the impression that Jerzy was attracted to Angel while IDing as male but not while as female (my bad for using "aspects"--genderqueer--as opposed to "times"--genderfluid, though the point remains). Looking at the strips again, there's no clear indicator in either direction, but if we take Jerzy's orientation at face value, then my interpretation is more likely.
Several times in the strip alone, he has had to stop himself from calling Angel Angie in this strip he references a "boyish-looking woman."
EDIT: Also, just in case this has been forgotten: Jerzy has every right to identify as gay while having consensual sex with women who know he identifies as gay. Choosing a label has always been a tradeoff between external and internal identity, between familiarity and accuracy. Jerzy's orientation might be more complicated than the label "gay" might suggest, but regardless of whether it is, he's the one who gets to choose what label to apply to himself.
Again, sorry, but no. This came out of Jerzy's own mouth. I didn't make it up. He said that he "transitioned" out of being bi, to gay. Considering the context in which he made this statement - that is to ease Dillon's mind that he was not going to be like Matt and cheat on him with a female - Jerzy knew what he was doing. I'll grant you that his sexuality may be more complicated, but that's something HE has not admitted to, and I'm not here for bi-erasure. Sorry. If you don't agree, fine, but that just means we've reached an impasse on this point and likely should move on. Thanks.

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Storm-forge mystique
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by Storm-forge mystique »

I knew it was one of those titles that sounds better in another language. The French title rang a bell instantly.

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Azrael
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by Azrael »

Oy vey. :|
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JoybuzzerX
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by JoybuzzerX »

cellabella wrote:
Dr. Jamming wrote:I have to say, that I'm actually starting to warm up to angel a bit, seeing how she is in a relationship, rather than outside of it being crazy/ jealous/ scheming. Jerzy's a good guy, and a romance with a childhood / best friend seems sweet. I can see why Angel keeps the torch burning, and I wouldn't mind seeing this ship stay afloat. A big issue may be Jerzy's need to accept that he's attracted to who he's attracted to and to get over either labels or negative stigmas. That he sees bisexuality as something to look down on... to be "upgraded" from, is probably the thing I like least about Jerzy... It's actually a bit douchey of him, but not enough to mar the overall picture.
I agree 100 percent with the bold. As a bi female, I really find Jerzy's attitude to be biphobic to the extreme, and, as such deeply insulting. He's not gay. That's fine. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. But to pound his chest and tout his sexuality as something that "evolved" from, as if bisexuality is some icky, fence-sitting position, is crappy. I would respect him more if he were just open about the fact that he does find some women attractive, but he leans more toward wanting sex/relationships with men. His attitude on this subject makes him as much in denial as the older dude that Amber and Dillon were banging.

The rest of it, eh, not so much. Angel has issues. This is beyond a childhood sweethearts thing. Jerzy has literally banged someone in front of zer, and has said as recently as a strip ago that their hookups were the result of booze and were "mistakes," yet Angel is taking anything from that that ze can and holding on tight.

The minute Jerzy meets a guy he wants to have sex with, there will be problems. Angel isn't going to bow out gracefully just because Jerzy says "please." Make no mistake - this is on Jerzy, too. Angel hanging on after one hookup was pretty not good, but now ze is being strung along by Jerzy even though ze is helping him by not really listening to what Jerzy is saying. But now they are in an actual, physical relationship. Angel has shown from zer introduction to be extremely possessive of Jerzy and that was after one shag that had happened ages ago. Do you really think ze is going to let go when Jerzy inevitably finds the person that he really wants to be with? It's not Angel. We all know that. Ze knows it, too, but isn't willing to face that.
Well, he's not the only biphobic in the comic. The title character shares that title.

Angel will do what she wants to do. She's going to keep acting this way until Jerzy sits her down and tells her matter of factly. Maybe Jerzy doesn't want her to give up on him. For Angel it's love. For Jerzy it's backup.

I'm not so sure Jerzy isn't meant for Angel and Angel isn't meant for Jerzy. The deal could be, that Jerzy himself just needs to get over himself. I'm under the thought that Gary is the oldest member (outside of his landlord/boss) of the cast. He just turned (29 or 30) and Zii is like 22-24 which seems to be the age of everyone else of the cast (if not younger) including Jerzy. So Jerzy needs to still find himself and figure things out. He considers himself gay, so he won't allow himself to love Angel. Maybe he just decided to call himself gay to avoid a drama with a woman and it just stayed with him. Or maybe he's just a Matt under sheep clothing!

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Spidrift
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by Spidrift »

tanonev wrote:Since when was it shown/established/implied that Jerzy had sex with/was attracted to Angel while Angel was ID'ing as female? I was under the impression that Jerzy was attracted to Angel while IDing as male but not while as female (my bad for using "aspects"--genderqueer--as opposed to "times"--genderfluid, though the point remains).
Jerzy has said that Angel is a very old friend (I'm not sure offhand if he's used the words "childhood friend" or not), and sometimes uses the name "Angie" until he corrects himself. He also called Dillon an idiot for missing an obvious reason why he couldn't be attracted to Angel. It seems to me that he instinctively thinks of Angel as female, however she's presenting, which would make sense if he knew her long before she developed the gender-fluid thing. Hence, he'll always think of sex with Angel as heterosexual. Heck, he effectively calls her a masculine-looking woman in this latest strip.
JoybuzzerX wrote:Well, he's not the only biphobic in the comic. The title character shares that title.
To be fair to Dillon, he has the small excuse that a bi guy cheated on him, traumatically. And it's shown as him simply being insecure. One can imagine Dillon getting over that with a little time. Jerzy, on the other hand, is self-hating bi-phobic. He looks more screwed up.
I'm under the thought that Gary is the oldest member (outside of his landlord/boss) of the cast. He just turned (29 or 30) and Zii is like 22-24 which seems to be the age of everyone else of the cast (if not younger) including Jerzy.
Actually, no. Ages are mostly a little vague in these comics, although we know that Gary has just turned 30 (ref. phone call from his mother), and Isabelle says she's 19, but the general evidence is that some of the cast are in their late 20s.

I think that Amber was 18 and Ruby was 12 when Amber left home - I'm sure that's the right ballpark - and Ruby has just graduated from uni with a BBA, presumably making her around 21-22, which implies that Amber is around 27-28. Then, Zii was Amber's contemporary at school. So Zii will definitely also be late 20s.

We do know that Yuki is a bit younger, though (I'll track down the relevant strip later), and Kiley will probably be early-mid 20s (she's still on a postgrad course). There's not much other evidence that I can recall.

EDIT:
  1. Yuki's 16th birthday was "eight years ago", so she's around 24.
  2. Ruby was "what... 12" when Amber left home (Amber's age then is unspecified, but I'd assume around 18), which makes Amber and Zii mid/late 20s now.
Actually, in my purely personal headcanon, it's kind of part of the character image with most of these people that they're heading into their late 20s, with the big three-zero starting to loom on the horizon for some. They're all pretty good at the rootless urban party animal thing, but they've now been there, done that, and it's all beginning to feel a tiny bit unsatisfactory, and they might want some more structure and plan to their lives - but they none of them really have much of a clue how to get there.
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-- Motto of Hogshead Publishing of fond memory, and wise words to set your Foes List by.
Avatar misappropriated from the wonderful XKCD.

JoybuzzerX
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by JoybuzzerX »

Hmmm...I must recall it wrong, I had thought Zii's age was said earlier as well as Yuki's. Could easily have been wrong. *shrug*

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Cortez
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by Cortez »

Spidrift wrote:Angel is crazy. Seriously and scary crazy. I wouldn't root for them because Jerzy seems like a fairly nice guy and doesn't deserve to wake up one night with a knife on his throat while Angel talks about The Voices.
That's a bit of an exaggeration.

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Spidrift
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by Spidrift »

Well, Angel hasn't got there yet. But we've seen Angel being obsessive, pathologically controlling, and malicious. I'm not sure what the limits are on this pattern of behaviour, if there are any. There's too much crazy there for me to assume that it wouldn't go that far.
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Spidrift
"Brevior vita est quam pro futumentibus negotium agendo."
-- Motto of Hogshead Publishing of fond memory, and wise words to set your Foes List by.
Avatar misappropriated from the wonderful XKCD.

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Bambikles
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by Bambikles »

I dunno, it feels like you're assuming the cat will inevitably turn into an elephant while it could simply turn into a deer or even stay a cat... Not sure if the metaphor is clear, but the idea is that it feels you sees big red alarm signs while it could just has be some moderate, controlable, not really real, hazard... Heeer, oh god, better go to bed. (-|

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