21-04-15 I am afraid

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Varanus
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by Varanus »

Artemisia wrote:What song are you all talking about?

And...I still can't stand Angel. Xe needs to have some sense knocked into xer head.
At least it's clear Jerzy is enabling xer now. He can claim all he wants that he isn't attracted to women but the fact remains he stayed with Angel long after he ceased to be drunk.

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Artemisia
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by Artemisia »

Which is why I'm closing in on hating Jerzy too.
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brasca
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by brasca »

Spidrift wrote:Why should Ruby think that Angel has money to invest? She just knows that Angel is a rock musician playing small clubs. If the plot needs her to meet Angel again, a collision outside Jerzy's front door seems more plausible.
Angel introduced her to some of the terminology when they last met during the double date. Ruby also has an irrational belief that she knows more about her penchant for yaoi than she really does so she might think Angel is someone who could be a potential customer. Moreover, she does not really know a whole lot of people in Montreal yet so presumably she would start with the ones she already met and could be interested.
Spidrift wrote:And the movie sounds like a bad choice for an anatomically-female individual to use when seducing a gay male. A story about physically painful buttsex and a relationship which ends badly? As Jerzy is saying here, it looks more like a horrible warning. However, I guess it is a French-language story about gay themes, so maybe it showed up in a local art-house and Jerzy went along while he was still getting his head around his sexual identity.
Perhaps it is, but can anyone name another movie about a gay man who has sex with a woman who looks passably masculine? Besides Angel is clearly too blinded by love to see a lot of the important details so yes I could see this being something that she watched with Jerzy while conveniently ignoring all the things that go wrong.

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Bambikles
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by Bambikles »

Spidrift wrote:But given that Giz's old band covered "Harley Davidson", I suspect that she may have a passing interest in Serge Gainsbourg, which could explain why the comic uses the reference so casually.
Oh God, a passing interest ? Gainsbourg is like the god of Francophone music ! Every French/francophone musician knows him and more or less takes some inspiration from him. He's legendary.
Artemisia wrote:What song are you all talking about?
This one. The expression "Je t'aime, moi non plus" made its way to the usual language in French, which puts it at the same iconic level than Astérix or Iznogoud. It describes a difficult relationship bordering on love-hate (which the song is not at all about, but the expression got taken at face value).
Originally the duet was with Brigitte Bardot but her husband didn't allow it to be released.
Spidrift wrote:Angel is crazy. Seriously and scary crazy. I wouldn't root for them because Jerzy seems like a fairly nice guy and doesn't deserve to wake up one night with a knife on his throat while Angel talks about The Voices.
Admit it, being crazy is far from an obstacle in this setting. Angel is still less crazy than Yuki after all. :p
Artemisia wrote:Which is why I'm closing in on hating Jerzy too.
In a way, he's a bit Gary-esque here: unable to assert himself and to refuse some sex. He said he upgraded to gay, so he may effectively think that sleeping with Angel is a kind of regression. But he can't help it nonetheless.

Dr. Jamming
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by Dr. Jamming »

I have to say, that I'm actually starting to warm up to angel a bit, seeing how she is in a relationship, rather than outside of it being crazy/ jealous/ scheming. Jerzy's a good guy, and a romance with a childhood / best friend seems sweet. I can see why Angel keeps the torch burning, and I wouldn't mind seeing this ship stay afloat. A big issue may be Jerzy's need to accept that he's attracted to who he's attracted to and to get over either labels or negative stigmas. That he sees bisexuality as something to look down on... to be "upgraded" from, is probably the thing I like least about Jerzy... It's actually a bit douchey of him, but not enough to mar the overall picture.

cellabella
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by cellabella »

Dr. Jamming wrote:I have to say, that I'm actually starting to warm up to angel a bit, seeing how she is in a relationship, rather than outside of it being crazy/ jealous/ scheming. Jerzy's a good guy, and a romance with a childhood / best friend seems sweet. I can see why Angel keeps the torch burning, and I wouldn't mind seeing this ship stay afloat. A big issue may be Jerzy's need to accept that he's attracted to who he's attracted to and to get over either labels or negative stigmas. That he sees bisexuality as something to look down on... to be "upgraded" from, is probably the thing I like least about Jerzy... It's actually a bit douchey of him, but not enough to mar the overall picture.
I agree 100 percent with the bold. As a bi female, I really find Jerzy's attitude to be biphobic to the extreme, and, as such deeply insulting. He's not gay. That's fine. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. But to pound his chest and tout his sexuality as something that "evolved" from, as if bisexuality is some icky, fence-sitting position, is crappy. I would respect him more if he were just open about the fact that he does find some women attractive, but he leans more toward wanting sex/relationships with men. His attitude on this subject makes him as much in denial as the older dude that Amber and Dillon were banging.

The rest of it, eh, not so much. Angel has issues. This is beyond a childhood sweethearts thing. Jerzy has literally banged someone in front of zer, and has said as recently as a strip ago that their hookups were the result of booze and were "mistakes," yet Angel is taking anything from that that ze can and holding on tight.

The minute Jerzy meets a guy he wants to have sex with, there will be problems. Angel isn't going to bow out gracefully just because Jerzy says "please." Make no mistake - this is on Jerzy, too. Angel hanging on after one hookup was pretty not good, but now ze is being strung along by Jerzy even though ze is helping him by not really listening to what Jerzy is saying. But now they are in an actual, physical relationship. Angel has shown from zer introduction to be extremely possessive of Jerzy and that was after one shag that had happened ages ago. Do you really think ze is going to let go when Jerzy inevitably finds the person that he really wants to be with? It's not Angel. We all know that. Ze knows it, too, but isn't willing to face that.

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LegendaryKroc
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by LegendaryKroc »

Spidrift wrote:Knowing that what he's doing will end badly, but doing it anyway... Like I said, screwed up.
I think it bears mentioning that there is a difference between knowing something (or doing something) is wrong/bad/inadvisable and actually being able to do anything about it or stop doing it. As someone with an insatiable sweet-tooth, I know that eating as much junk as I do is bad for me (my pancreas is probably 2 years of concentrated sugar away from type-2 diabetes and I have a pudge in the front) but the idea of kicking it for a week or two and eating healthily? A simple proposition, but even the very thought of it fills me with dread.

Likewise, Jerzy probably doesn't want to be in this situation, especially since Angel is not only someone he finds attractive (on some level anyway) but also an old friend, and thus he'd prefer to get out of this without ruining that, but something's going to keep him there. Angel not letting him go, for example.

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Spidrift
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by Spidrift »

brasca wrote:
Spidrift wrote:Why should Ruby think that Angel has money to invest? She just knows that Angel is a rock musician playing small clubs. If the plot needs her to meet Angel again, a collision outside Jerzy's front door seems more plausible.
Angel introduced her to some of the terminology when they last met during the double date. Ruby also has an irrational belief that she knows more about her penchant for yaoi than she really does so she might think Angel is someone who could be a potential customer.
Ruby must see that her interest in yaoi has become the worst-kept secret in Montreal by now - and if she wants to parlay it into a business plan, it's going to become even more open. (The whole idea is going to run head-first into her wish to keep her less respectable impulses secret from Amber, of course.) And Angel is someone she barely knows, but who she does know is in conflict with Dillon - who she has to live with as a flatmate, even if she forgets that she sees him as a friend by now.
brasca wrote:Moreover, she does not really know a whole lot of people in Montreal yet so presumably she would start with the ones she already met and could be interested.
That's assuming that Ruby would go to assorted semi-acquaintances for business investment. I think she's more businesslike than that, and she wouldn't expect anyone to invest money that they're highly unlikely to have. If she can't bring herself to go to a bank, she's more likely to ask people she does know about investors who they know.

So I'd say that she's a lot more likely to end up approaching Nathan than Angel...
Bambikles wrote:Oh God, a passing interest ? Gainsbourg is like the god of Francophone music ! Every French/francophone musician knows him and more or less takes some inspiration from him. He's legendary.
And yet, to Anglophone audiences, he was a weird ugly Frenchman with an inexplicable talent for pulling well above his class. Repeatedly.
Bambikles wrote:
Artemisia wrote:What song are you all talking about?
This one.
That's probably one of the rare occasions when an audio link requires an NSFW flag.
Bambikles wrote:The expression "Je t'aime, moi non plus" made its way to the usual language in French, which puts it at the same iconic level than Astérix or Iznogoud. It describes a difficult relationship bordering on love-hate (which the song is not at all about, but the expression got taken at face value).
All of which ignores the thing that got it to number one in the UK despite it being banned from the radio.
Bambikles wrote:Originally the duet was with Brigitte Bardot but her husband didn't allow it to be released.
The Bardot version was apparently eventually released in 1986.
Bambikles wrote:Admit it, being crazy is far from an obstacle in this setting. Angel is still less crazy than Yuki after all.
I'm not totally convinced that Angel is less crazy, actually. Less violent, so far, but frankly more scary in my opinion.

This is partly subjective, but remember that SDB tends to play things slightly more seriously and deconstructively than Ma3. Yuki and Sonya act like stalkers, but they're comedy stalkers; they can be distracted or dissuaded from pursuing Zii from time to time, and their most stalker-y actions tend to be moments of high comedy. Angel looks worryingly realistic. The feud with Zii is downright pathological, and controlling who Jerzy is allowed to talk to ... gets right into Edward Cullen territory.
Dr. Jamming wrote:I have to say, that I'm actually starting to warm up to angel a bit, seeing how she is in a relationship, rather than outside of it being crazy/ jealous/ scheming.
So Angel was bad while Jerzy was in a relationship with Dillon, but once Angel had finished nudging Dillon into Controlled Flight Into Terrain, and got Jerzy drunk enough to seduce, Angel became okay? Bit situational morality, isn't it?
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wiseguy
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by wiseguy »

Jerzy is very complex(or seems to)

likes femininity( Dill and Angie) but for some reason he likes the bananas? and maybe rear? but is not attuned to the magic boxes (reason he is apprehensive about Angie)

and Angie is complex too, because it seems sometimes her personality is like Dillon's,(submissive/feminine) but than the next day she goes "Matt" personality(assertive/masculine) and is why she is gender fluid. An even bigger reason of why Jerz is apprehensive of Angie
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christopheftw
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by christopheftw »

Angel may be slightly less crazy than Yuki, but is absolutely more malicious.

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Artemisia
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by Artemisia »

wiseguy wrote:Jerzy is very complex(or seems to)

likes femininity( Dill and Angie) but for some reason he likes the bananas? and maybe rear? but is not attuned to the magic boxes (reason he is apprehensive about Angie)

and Angie is complex too, because it seems sometimes her personality is like Dillon's,(submissive/feminine) but than the next day she goes "Matt" personality(assertive/masculine) and is why she is gender fluid. An even bigger reason of why Jerz is apprehensive of Angie
I've always seen Jerzy as being a couple notches down from Dillon on the Kinsey scale.

And thanks for the explanations everyone.
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"I'm going to do what I do best...lecture her."- Twilight Sparkle (My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic)
"Hello, I'm a lizard woman from the dawn of time, and this is my wife." - Madam Vastra (Doctor Who "The Snowmen")
"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes." The 4th Doctor Doctor Who "Robot"

Dr. Jamming
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by Dr. Jamming »

cellabella wrote:
Dr. Jamming wrote:I have to say, that I'm actually starting to warm up to angel a bit, seeing how she is in a relationship, rather than outside of it being crazy/ jealous/ scheming. Jerzy's a good guy, and a romance with a childhood / best friend seems sweet. I can see why Angel keeps the torch burning, and I wouldn't mind seeing this ship stay afloat. A big issue may be Jerzy's need to accept that he's attracted to who he's attracted to and to get over either labels or negative stigmas. That he sees bisexuality as something to look down on... to be "upgraded" from, is probably the thing I like least about Jerzy... It's actually a bit douchey of him, but not enough to mar the overall picture.
I agree 100 percent with the bold. As a bi female, I really find Jerzy's attitude to be biphobic to the extreme, and, as such deeply insulting. He's not gay. That's fine. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. But to pound his chest and tout his sexuality as something that "evolved" from, as if bisexuality is some icky, fence-sitting position, is crappy. I would respect him more if he were just open about the fact that he does find some women attractive, but he leans more toward wanting sex/relationships with men. His attitude on this subject makes him as much in denial as the older dude that Amber and Dillon were banging.

The rest of it, eh, not so much. Angel has issues. This is beyond a childhood sweethearts thing. Jerzy has literally banged someone in front of zer, and has said as recently as a strip ago that their hookups were the result of booze and were "mistakes," yet Angel is taking anything from that that ze can and holding on tight.

The minute Jerzy meets a guy he wants to have sex with, there will be problems. Angel isn't going to bow out gracefully just because Jerzy says "please." Make no mistake - this is on Jerzy, too. Angel hanging on after one hookup was pretty not good, but now ze is being strung along by Jerzy even though ze is helping him by not really listening to what Jerzy is saying. But now they are in an actual, physical relationship. Angel has shown from zer introduction to be extremely possessive of Jerzy and that was after one shag that had happened ages ago. Do you really think ze is going to let go when Jerzy inevitably finds the person that he really wants to be with? It's not Angel. We all know that. Ze knows it, too, but isn't willing to face that.
The fact that Jerzy is so much more strongly attracted to men, and that he doesn't want to be in a romance with Angel are two of the biggest obstacles to them being together and likely an insurmountable one. Still, the fact that Jerzy's primary objection rests on his insistence that he's like so totally 100% gay, an assertion contradicted by facts in evidence, leaves at least a little bit of room for evolution / exploration. It probably won't last, but it'll be fun to watch while it does.

Bi erasure is ugly and hurtful, doubly so when it comes from people who would call out a guy like Nathan instantly.
Last edited by Dr. Jamming on Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Artemisia
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by Artemisia »

Unfortunately, we live in a society which is very binary. So, being gay or straight is usually the only two options (especially) men tend to see. Men are usually told you get to be A or C but not B while I've run into women who were pretty much exclusively attracted to women who insist that they're bisexual. We also see this attitude that all women are at some level bisexual shows up in the latest Sandra on the Rocks with the statement "No woman can be that gay." Ahem...

I've always taken Jerzy as living somewhere in the same side of the scale as Cynthia Nixon. The problem is that Angel is going to be a huge problem in the long run, and possibly in the short run. After all, Angel already destroyed one relationship Jerzy was in.
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"I'm going to do what I do best...lecture her."- Twilight Sparkle (My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic)
"Hello, I'm a lizard woman from the dawn of time, and this is my wife." - Madam Vastra (Doctor Who "The Snowmen")
"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes." The 4th Doctor Doctor Who "Robot"

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wiseguy
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by wiseguy »

dr Jamming, he is not simply attracted to guys, he is attracted to feminine guys, and he is 100% top(or seems to be)

things are not simple

take just lesbians

for the most part(but not exactly) we can say that they are either butchy (like a masculine touch of personality) or they are glamour (they are feminine in personality and fashion)

normally people think that lesbian couples are 1 butch and one glam

but there are lot of 2 butchs couples, or 2 glam couples, and some of them are personality fluid (some days they are butch, some other days they want to be glam)

same thing with gays

many couples are 2 bears, or 2 fem guys and not one bear and one feminine guy, and EVEN than, one finds the surprise that the "feminine guy" is the top and the "bear guy" is the bottom
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Dr. Jamming
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Re: 21-04-15 I am afraid

Post by Dr. Jamming »

Spidrift wrote:
Bambikles wrote:Admit it, being crazy is far from an obstacle in this setting. Angel is still less crazy than Yuki after all.
I'm not totally convinced that Angel is less crazy, actually. Less violent, so far, but frankly more scary in my opinion.

This is partly subjective, but remember that SDB tends to play things slightly more seriously and deconstructively than Ma3. Yuki and Sonya act like stalkers, but they're comedy stalkers; they can be distracted or dissuaded from pursuing Zii from time to time, and their most stalker-y actions tend to be moments of high comedy. Angel looks worryingly realistic. The feud with Zii is downright pathological, and controlling who Jerzy is allowed to talk to ... gets right into Edward Cullen territory.
While there are some minor differences in tone between the two strips, it's worth noting that Yuki's depth of crazy is literally Raving in the streets Mad Dog insane, complete with vivid hallucinations, blackouts, fugues, and conduct that by all means should see her locked up in prison or a psychiatric ward. Granted, she's been a lot better since doing therapy with Kiley, but if you look at her whole history it's hard for anyone to out crazy her.
By fiction standards, Angel seems comparatively well within the "catty ex" bounds of sanity.
Spidrift wrote:
Dr. Jamming wrote:I have to say, that I'm actually starting to warm up to angel a bit, seeing how she is in a relationship, rather than outside of it being crazy/ jealous/ scheming.
So Angel was bad while Jerzy was in a relationship with Dillon, but once Angel had finished nudging Dillon into Controlled Flight Into Terrain, and got Jerzy drunk enough to seduce, Angel became okay? Bit situational morality, isn't it?
I've got no problem with situational morality, especially considering what Dillon's gotten up to, and I am mostly a consequentialist after all. But What I was really getting at is that it's encouraging to see another side of Angel, and that she's not also some sort of horrible nasty girlfriend whom Jerzy should obviously hate being with, but that she's actually kind of sweet, and even considerate.

Controlled flight into terrain is an incredibly apt metaphor for how Dillon responded to interference, by the way. I'm ambivalent about whether it would have been better if he'd stayed with Jerzy, or if it will be better if/ when they get back together.

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