17-04-15 Carried away

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Qwertz
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Re: 17-04-15 Carried away

Post by Qwertz »

wiseguy wrote:I found the ancient thou and thee version of the second person
But thou and thee are to do with declinations used with the preposition* (somewhat similar to German), not with gender?
*For instance: "What hast thou done?", "I beseech thee!", "I give my heart to thee;" never "What hast thee done?", "I beseech thou!", "I give my heart to thou."

Anyway, I'll just sit back enjoying Angel's new hairstyle and Jerzy's complete inability to put some distance between the two of them, and also eat my popcorn while people discuss difficulties in having to figure out what pronouns to use, when there are entire languages out there (and a lot of them) in which adjectives and even verbs used need to match the gender of the subject all the time :-= :-= :-=

....it's much more difficult to be genderfluid in those countries.. grammatically, at least.

EDIT: I must add that gender fluidity as a concept - while I have come across it before - is not something I'm particularly familiar with, either, and so I am also looking forward to more discussion on that topic, though I can't contribute to it myself.
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Spidrift
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Re: 17-04-15 Carried away

Post by Spidrift »

I'm just waiting for a gender-fluid reader to congratulate Pixietrix on their inclusion of a gender-fluid character, then two posts later for them to start complaining that said gender-fluid character isn't being depicted positively.
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wiseguy
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Re: 17-04-15 Carried away

Post by wiseguy »

Qwertz wrote:
wiseguy wrote:I found the ancient thou and thee version of the second person
But thou and thee are to do with declinations used with the preposition* (somewhat similar to German), not with gender?
*For instance: "What hast thou done?", "I beseech thee!", "I give my heart to thee;" never "What hast thee done?", "I beseech thou!", "I give my heart to thou."

Anyway, I'll just sit back enjoying Angel's new hairstyle and Jerzy's complete inability to put some distance between the two of them, and also eat my popcorn while people discuss difficulties in having to figure out what pronouns to use, when there are entire languages out there (and a lot of them) in which adjectives and even verbs used need to match the gender of the subject all the time :-= :-= :-=

....it's much more difficult to be genderfluid in those countries.. grammatically, at least.

EDIT: I must add that gender fluidity as a concept - while I have come across it before - is not something I'm particularly familiar with, either, and so I am also looking forward to more discussion on that topic, though I can't contribute to it myself.

generally in the English language for singular 2nd person, there is no gender, and neither for 1st person as in I and you(old form thou and thee)
only on the 3rd person is there gender distinction without an actual neutral besides the "many times seen as derogative, it"

in the plural person, everything is neutral, we, you and they

only in Spanish and some other languages we might see "gender" in the 3rd person plural as in "Ellas and Ellos, esos and esas, estos and estas" (they, those and these)
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brasca
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Re: 17-04-15 Carried away

Post by brasca »

Spidrift wrote:
brasca wrote: And given what happened between Zii and Jerzy there is a legitimate reason to hold a grudge against her.
Honestly, no. Zii has done a lot of dubious or questionable things, but banging Jerzy just isn't on the list. (Well, not in relation to Angel, anyway. If she was two-timing Yuki in the process, that was wrong of her.) She said that she thought that Angel was strictly into women, and we have no reason to disbelieve her. (She wasn't in a state to construct coherent lies when she said that.) Meanwhile, Jerzy didn't consider himself to be in any sort of relationship with Angel, so he was free to go for it with Zii if he wanted.

Angel taking this as a reason to break up their musical partnership, initiate a destructive feud with Zii, refuse to let Jerzy stay in the same room as Zii, and refuse to even mention Zii's name, is a sign that Angel is stark staring nuts and just a little bit scary.
Zii has done a lot of dubious or questionable things and alcohol probably had a lot to do with it, but given Angel's barely disguised feelings for Jerzy I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't suspect there was something between the two. However, alcohol clouded her judgement and Jerzy's for that matter since he did not seem to think Angel would have a problem with this. Perhaps Angel was better at hiding her feelings than now, but this cannot be confirmed as of yet. If this is a case where they should have known better then it is more Jerzy's fault than Zii's, but Angel loves so all the blame gets shifted to Zii. The breakup, however, was inevitable. If not sex with Jerzy it really would be "creative differences" considering their egos.

I am not willing to dismiss Angel just yet. Yes she has some troubling tendencies, but then again so do most of the people in the world of Menage a 3 and Sandra on the Rocks.

JoybuzzerX
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Re: 17-04-15 Carried away

Post by JoybuzzerX »

It could be as simple as Jerzy has identified himself as gay, but just has some serious feelings for Angel, regardless of her gender or what gender she feels like acting like.

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Spidrift
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Re: 17-04-15 Carried away

Post by Spidrift »

brasca wrote:Zii has done a lot of dubious or questionable things and alcohol probably had a lot to do with it, but given Angel's barely disguised feelings for Jerzy I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't suspect there was something between the two. However, alcohol clouded her judgement and Jerzy's for that matter since he did not seem to think Angel would have a problem with this.
I doubt that anyone was drunk when Zii banged Jerzy. They were supposed to be about to start a band rehearsal, so it wouldn't have been too late in the day and Zii would have wanted a clear head. Zii evidently likes a drink, but she's not an alcoholic, and she rarely blames booze for her dubious decisions.

If Angel was yearning for Jerzy but not sleeping with him (remember, they previously only slept together once), it probably looked to Zii like friendship expressed in Angel's campy-flamboyant style - especially as she had no reason to think that Angel would have an erotic attachment to any guy. That's the problem with being a drama queen like Angel; genuinely serious and subtle emotions get lost in the noise.
I am not willing to dismiss Angel just yet. Yes she has some troubling tendencies, but then again so do most of the people in the world of Menage a 3 and Sandra on the Rocks.
All these characters have flaws and most also have virtues, but Angel's obsessive approach to Jerzy tips much closer to the scary-nuts-dangerous end of the scale than most. Remember, Angel actively tries to control who Jerzy talks to, pushing him out of the room when Zii is present. That is, literally, one of the standard diagnostics for a dangerously controlling relationship - a big red flag.

Angel is sad and emotionally damaged rather than being a sleazy slimeball on the Nathan/Yvan pattern, but sad and emotionally damaged is more dangerous.
JoybuzzerX wrote:It could be as simple as Jerzy has identified himself as gay, but just has some serious feelings for Angel, regardless of her gender or what gender she feels like acting like.
But why does he identify as "gay" rather than "bi"? He's had full sexual relationships with women, and Angel presenting as female doesn't appear to put him off. If he wants to say "I mostly go for guys", that's fine, but refusing to use the word for what he is puts him in the Sonya class - but less comedy-dim and more just plain weird.
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JoybuzzerX
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Re: 17-04-15 Carried away

Post by JoybuzzerX »

Spidrift wrote:
brasca wrote:Zii has done a lot of dubious or questionable things and alcohol probably had a lot to do with it, but given Angel's barely disguised feelings for Jerzy I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't suspect there was something between the two. However, alcohol clouded her judgement and Jerzy's for that matter since he did not seem to think Angel would have a problem with this.
I doubt that anyone was drunk when Zii banged Jerzy. They were supposed to be about to start a band rehearsal, so it wouldn't have been too late in the day and Zii would have wanted a clear head. Zii evidently likes a drink, but she's not an alcoholic, and she rarely blames booze for her dubious decisions.

If Angel was yearning for Jerzy but not sleeping with him (remember, they previously only slept together once), it probably looked to Zii like friendship expressed in Angel's campy-flamboyant style - especially as she had no reason to think that Angel would have an erotic attachment to any guy. That's the problem with being a drama queen like Angel; genuinely serious and subtle emotions get lost in the noise.
I am not willing to dismiss Angel just yet. Yes she has some troubling tendencies, but then again so do most of the people in the world of Menage a 3 and Sandra on the Rocks.
All these characters have flaws and most also have virtues, but Angel's obsessive approach to Jerzy tips much closer to the scary-nuts-dangerous end of the scale than most. Remember, Angel actively tries to control who Jerzy talks to, pushing him out of the room when Zii is present. That is, literally, one of the standard diagnostics for a dangerously controlling relationship - a big red flag.

Angel is sad and emotionally damaged rather than being a sleazy slimeball on the Nathan/Yvan pattern, but sad and emotionally damaged is more dangerous.
JoybuzzerX wrote:It could be as simple as Jerzy has identified himself as gay, but just has some serious feelings for Angel, regardless of her gender or what gender she feels like acting like.
But why does he identify as "gay" rather than "bi"? He's had full sexual relationships with women, and Angel presenting as female doesn't appear to put him off. If he wants to say "I mostly go for guys", that's fine, but refusing to use the word for what he is puts him in the Sonya class - but less comedy-dim and more just plain weird.
Maybe because Angel is the exception. If you go with the idea of Genderfluid, when he's with Angel she's male half the time. In another comic "To Much Information" a lesbian character is in love with and engaged to be married to a gay cross dresser, both consider themselves to be gay.

Or we just go with the simple solution that likes to get point out often, why put labels on It at all? Can't Jerzy who calls himself gay, love Angel and still be gay?

If Lavali hooked up with Sienna, you'd still consider her lesbian wouldn't you? ... Hmmm...now I want to ship them! Lav & Sienna FOREVER! <3

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Spidrift
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Re: 17-04-15 Carried away

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JoybuzzerX wrote:Maybe because Angel is the exception. If you go with the idea of Genderfluid, when he's with Angel she's male half the time.
But Angel isn't the only exception. Jerzy had sex with women in the past - Zii and presumably others. He says that he's shifted to being fully gay now... Except that he's got Angel as a sort-of exception, that he doesn't want to talk about...

That doesn't look to me like gay; it doesn't even look like "gay, used to be bi". It looks like "bi, in denial". I'm just vaguely curious where the denial is coming from.
JoybuzzerX wrote:Or we just go with the simple solution that likes to get point out often, why put labels on It at all?
Jerzy is the one who's chosen to adopt the label; see, for example, his conversations with Dillon and Erik. And his choice of labels has started to look as wacky as Sonya's, but not as funny.
JoybuzzerX wrote:If Lavali hooked up with Sienna, you'd still consider her lesbian wouldn't you?
Given Senna's (very) female image and self-identification - sure. Same way as I don't dispute Gary's identification as straight since his fling with Senna. But Lavali doesn't appear to have made a fetish of her sexual identity; lesbianism is just what she does, and it's only a big deal because she's a bit worried about what her friends and family might think about it. Even if she slept with Domenico or Gary or somebody, it'd just be "oh well, she changed her mind that day". Jerzy, on the other hand, goes round telling people how exclusively gay he is.
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Re: 17-04-15 Carried away

Post by wiseguy »

about transsexual male to female

SOME lesbians would not be with Senna because they are adverse to the idea of her sex organ
SOME Gay guys would not be with Senna because they are adverse to the idea that she looks like a woman
some Lesbians and some straight guys would be with Senna because she looks and acts like a woman and her sex organ is just something incidental and not significant
some gay guys would be with Senna because they do not care how she looks, all that matters is that she has a male sex organ
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Re: 17-04-15 Carried away

Post by Maechris »

Personally I'm still waiting to see if Angel was always gender-fluid or is it a Jerzy thing that caused her to go that way. Zii's attitude towards actually mentioning Angel's gender thankfully suggests the former, because it'd be wacko-dangerous if it was the latter.
Spidrift wrote:
JoybuzzerX wrote:Maybe because Angel is the exception. If you go with the idea of Genderfluid, when he's with Angel she's male half the time.
But Angel isn't the only exception. Jerzy had sex with women in the past - Zii and presumably others. He says that he's shifted to being fully gay now... Except that he's got Angel as a sort-of exception, that he doesn't want to talk about...

That doesn't look to me like gay; it doesn't even look like "gay, used to be bi". It looks like "bi, in denial". I'm just vaguely curious where the denial is coming from.
JoybuzzerX wrote:If Lavali hooked up with Sienna, you'd still consider her lesbian wouldn't you?
Given Senna's (very) female image and self-identification - sure. Same way as I don't dispute Gary's identification as straight since his fling with Senna. But Lavali doesn't appear to have made a fetish of her sexual identity; lesbianism is just what she does, and it's only a big deal because she's a bit worried about what her friends and family might think about it. Even if she slept with Domenico or Gary or somebody, it'd just be "oh well, she changed her mind that day". Jerzy, on the other hand, goes round telling people how exclusively gay he is.
Apparently some people choose to be 'homoromantic' or 'heteroromantic' despite their bisexuality and yet others prefer to see their adventures with one sex as a passing experimentation phase. It's likely some women or another bit Jerzy where it hurt the most and now he'd rather not associate with them in that way, or he was somehow affected similarly to Dillon and is now worried 'bisexual = more unfaithful than 'monosexual'. Which may not be a very rational viewpoint, but is a very common viewpoint.
wiseguy wrote:about transsexual male to female

SOME lesbians would not be with Senna because they are adverse to the idea of her sex organ
SOME Gay guys would not be with Senna because they are adverse to the idea that she looks like a woman
some Lesbians and some straight guys would be with Senna because she looks and acts like a woman and her sex organ is just something incidental and not significant
some gay guys would be with Senna because they do not care how she looks, all that matters is that she has a male sex organ
And then there's the people who will argue that having sex with a transsexual makes someone less straight or less gay. Or more bisexual. Or whatever.
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Re: 17-04-15 Carried away

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monosexuality and bisexuality is something COMPLETELY different than promiscuity and being monogamous

the first 2 have nothing to do with whether you would cheat or not while the last 2 have a very important factor in whether someone would cheat or not

some bisexuals want to have one man AND one woman, others want many people in their lives and others are open to fall in love with either gender BUT as soon as they do, that person would be their only one (they become either a bisexual in a monogamous straight relationship or a bisexual in a monogamous same gender relationship)
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Spidrift
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Re: 17-04-15 Carried away

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Maechris wrote:It's likely some women or another bit Jerzy where it hurt the most ...
Not an image I want to think about in the context.
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Re: 17-04-15 Carried away

Post by wiseguy »

I think Jerzy is mostly gay(likes the banana ;) ) BUT he enjoys "femininity" in his partner

he is Okay with Dillon but probably would not with Matt, and he enjoys Angie (looks like she was born female, but there is still a chance she was born male) WHEN she goes "feminine" but as she is gender fluid, Jerzy does not enjoy Angel making a decision a particular day to be masculine

he might not enjoy being with an aggressive female like Zii but he might be Okay being with Amber and I can see him being okay with Senna
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brasca
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Re: 17-04-15 Carried away

Post by brasca »

Spidrift wrote:
brasca wrote:Zii has done a lot of dubious or questionable things and alcohol probably had a lot to do with it, but given Angel's barely disguised feelings for Jerzy I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't suspect there was something between the two. However, alcohol clouded her judgement and Jerzy's for that matter since he did not seem to think Angel would have a problem with this.
I doubt that anyone was drunk when Zii banged Jerzy. They were supposed to be about to start a band rehearsal, so it wouldn't have been too late in the day and Zii would have wanted a clear head. Zii evidently likes a drink, but she's not an alcoholic, and she rarely blames booze for her dubious decisions.

If Angel was yearning for Jerzy but not sleeping with him (remember, they previously only slept together once), it probably looked to Zii like friendship expressed in Angel's campy-flamboyant style - especially as she had no reason to think that Angel would have an erotic attachment to any guy. That's the problem with being a drama queen like Angel; genuinely serious and subtle emotions get lost in the noise.
I am not willing to dismiss Angel just yet. Yes she has some troubling tendencies, but then again so do most of the people in the world of Menage a 3 and Sandra on the Rocks.
All these characters have flaws and most also have virtues, but Angel's obsessive approach to Jerzy tips much closer to the scary-nuts-dangerous end of the scale than most. Remember, Angel actively tries to control who Jerzy talks to, pushing him out of the room when Zii is present. That is, literally, one of the standard diagnostics for a dangerously controlling relationship - a big red flag.

Angel is sad and emotionally damaged rather than being a sleazy slimeball on the Nathan/Yvan pattern, but sad and emotionally damaged is more dangerous.
Upon closer inspection those appear to be sweat drops and not booze bubbles. Part of the problem with using a smart phone to reply to message boards is magnifying the screen. I also thought Zii's speech was slurred, but it appears that was orgasm induced. However, even if alcohol was not affecting anyone's judgement and Angel's flamboyance made it difficult to determine his actual feelings this is still something Zii could have avoided. She already had one band member obsessed over her so adding more potential complications by having sex with Angel's supposed "friend" did not help matters.

These were the reckless years and people can change. I think Zii's experienced enough problems with being sexually involved with her bandmates as well as her manager to know that it is best to keep business and pleasure separate. Now as you say Angel could be potentially dangerous, but seeing as how her obsession with Jerzy did not go to the same extremes as Yuki's, nor did her neuroses lead to a string of people being kicked in the crotch during a psychotic fugue state I give her the benefit of the doubt.

I did not like Yuki when she was first introduced for many of the stated reasons even though she had a sympathetic back story, but she improved and if she can then I think it is possible for Angel.

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Spidrift
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Re: 17-04-15 Carried away

Post by Spidrift »

Zii likes sex. She may have decided by now that entanglements with bandmates or managers are potentially more trouble than they're worth, but back then, we know, she screwed her manager and assorted potential and actual bandmates.

But even if she'd known better then - that doesn't make any difference regarding Jerzy. Not screwing colleagues is one thing, but keeping hands off platonic friends of colleagues is a bit too much to ask. Where do you draw the line? Is someone supposed to limit their interest to people who none of their friends or colleagues even know? Should Zii only screw complete strangers? Hell, friends could be happy for platonic friends who get together happily...

(The snag in this case is that Zii was probably in a quasi-exclusive thing with Yuki at that point. But Angel wasn't concerned about that.)

And Yuki is distinctly worrying; as I've said before, in the real world I'd be yelling at Gary to run like hell and call the cops. But personally, I find Angel comparably bad and much more creepy. If I was in a relationship with Yuki, I'd worry about her wigging out and running at me with an axe, screaming; if I got to close to Angel, I'd worry about waking up in the middle of the night to find her sitting on the bed with a knife, smiling. Yuki at least has the thin excuse of having been in a fairly long relationship with Zii; Jerzy slept with Angel once, and has been trying to keep her at arm's length ever since. And that taste for extended feuds, the control freakery, the refusal to mention names... Brr. That's proper crazy, that is.
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-- Motto of Hogshead Publishing of fond memory, and wise words to set your Foes List by.
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