31-03-15 Tasteful connoisseur

[Azrael]

Keep digging, Ruby.

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[wiseguy]

IF Zii had not said "...of Yaoi"


Ruby was ready to say You're darN right to the "so you're the connoisseur"

[themacnut]

Equally, we know that she doesn't want to be "like Amber", who she defines as the opposite of her self-controlled and sensible self, and that's doubtless tied up with the bad experience at the teenage party; any time she thinks about sex, she's likely to suffer visions of her sister, naked and doing weird stuff, which would be enough to mess up anyone's sexuality. But that's not a matter of ignorance; that's repression, an understandable hang-up caused by seeing that Amber-Amber porn video, and a lot of self-justification. She's also got a serious obsession with respectability; she's perpetually afraid that everyone she meets is judging her, and she doesn't want anyone thinking that she engages in anything as sticky and unrestrained as sex.

All of which is why she cannot admit to having a libido in any way, shape or form, including admitting liking yaoi. Especially to the likes of Zii, who she probably feels "corrupted" Amber is some way. Nope, admitting liking yaoi probably in Ruby's mind would be starting down that slippery slope to becoming as "depraved" as Amber, and Ruby's having none of that. So the power of Denial remains strong with this one, and probably won't change until Ruby is able to reconcile with Amber in some way. Which is most likely not happening anytime soon.

So, I think we can expect at least one more strip of Ruby vehemently denying her interest in yaoi unless something happens to change the subject. Like perhaps Minew "speaking up". Or maybe Ruby discovering the reason Minew's been silent the past couple of strips is because he slipped out of her purse and disappeared. Cue Ruby is total panic mode in that case.

[Spidrift]

I'm not sure that Ruby sees the issue as a slippery slope so much as a deep crevasse into which she does not want to drop, but whatever. And we don't know what she thinks or assumes about Zii, yet; she realises that Zii and Amber were probably up to sex stuff in Amber's room, ten years ago, so she won't have a high opinion, but she does try to be fair, at least to everyone except Amber, so she might automatically assume that Amber corrupted Zii rather than the reverse. If Zii turns on the charm a bit more, Ruby may yet end up kind of liking her despite herself.

And this gag could be drawn out for another strip - it could be dragged out indefinitely - but it doesn't have to be, and like I said, I really hope it isn't. Been there, got the joke a dozen frikkin' times now.* All Zii has to say is "Whatever. I don't judge. That'll be forty bucks, by the way. Anyhow, how is Amber?" and there'll be a new conversation going inside one panel.


*Fourteen, even. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14.

[MissMadness]

One small question that we've all missed so far: Where did Ruby learn the "uke" and "seme" terminology?

I'd guess that she took a look round the Wikipedia entry for Yaoi, or something similar - or does that sort of vocabulary actually appear within yaoi manga? Either way, well, I may be over-interpreting, but I'm putting this together with her use of "in media res" last strip; I think that someone on the writing team has remembered that she's supposed to be a rather nerdy university graduate, so she'd be exactly the sort of person who'd investigate technical terms for something she was interested in, and use non-English vocabulary where it's appropriate.

Some yaoi does outright state the terms some don't, but when you're in the circles you tend to see them a lot and can pick up what they mean.

Now as someone who is into yaoi I can tell you this. Ruby is in between phases that comes with liking yaoi. 1. Seeing it, feeling outraged/disgusted but intrigued, 2. Liking it but feeling shame about it and wanting to hide it because it isn't seen as normal. (even if Ruby is crap at hiding it) 3. Gushing over very gay thing you see. 4. Learning to rein in those reactions (you can still gush but in a appropriate way) 5. Embracing how rotten you've become and moving on with life. Zii is at 5.

Ruby stuck between phase 2 and 3. She still hasn't gotten over the shame phase but she has been sinking deeper into the gushing phase at the same time. Which is a terrible place to be in, getting over 2 means fully accepting that she like yaoi which means not hiding it when she doesn't need to. Getting over 3 means learning when its a good time to gush and when it isn't. Zii can probably help her find a good outlet to help.

[Spidrift]

Zii, I imagine, shot straight to 5. I got the impression that she'd never actually seen yaoi until Gary dragged her to the shop for a job, but once she did, well, she's very relaxed with her own sexual tastes (to put it mildly), and she also likes to look cool, so she wouldn't have had many shame issues, and she'd have avoided gushing very much. Whether she once went through something like the earlier stages with regard to her interest in porn, or regarding sex in general, many years ago, would be an interesting question.

Ruby, on the other hand, is very prone to shame, so she's doomed to take a while to get out of phase 2. On the other hand, yaoi has become the outlet for her badly repressed sexuality, which clearly involves a lot of bottled-up energy, so she's prone to a lot of enthusiasm for it. At the same time, she's a hardcore nerd, which means that she's not only prone to excess enthusiasm and gushing, she'll make sure that she gets the technical vocabulary right... So yes, stage 2, continually dragging herself back from a lurch into stage 3.

But I'm not sure how much help Zii can be. Having gone straight to stage 5, she doesn't have the practical experience to recognise and advise about the earlier stages. And from Ruby's point of view, she's a friend of Amber's, which means that she's not totally trustworthy and may be rather sleazy, and there's a danger that she'll expose Ruby's shameful secret to Amber; moreover, she's linked to Ruby's old home town, which means that she's associated with the focus of Ruby's sense of shame.

She might be able to help somehow, especially if they can bond and make friends over something else, but it's not likely to be easy. At the moment, I'd see Dillon as being more help; Ruby's secrecy is already a loss there, he's promised to keep quiet about it, and they've already kind of bonded. And he knows enough about yaoi himself, so he'll get what Ruby is gushing about.

(I'm now imagining a sit-down in a cocktail bar after a few weeks; Zii and Dillon side by side, hitting the martinis. "So. Ruby." "Ruby and Amber." "Yeah, but mostly Ruby." "Yeah. You know about the yaoi?" "Oh god yes. So, what do we do for them?")

[Schmorgluck]

Why look, another comic in which Minew is totally ignored.

It seems that discussing about yaoi isn't compatible with fawning over a pussy.

[FlashD81]

You forgot this ;)

[Spidrift]

Stray thought: What Ruby needs to learn most of all is the difference between "respected" and "respectable". She wants the former, but thinks it requires the latter. The sad thing is, she has what she needs to get the respect of the people around her quite easily, but she's too focused on remaining respectable to notice.

[brasca]

I'm not sure what theory I'm supposed to hold about Ruby and her sexuality; if you can clarify what you think I think, I'll tell you if you're right or not. I try to stick with the evidence we're given, plus the odd flight of fancy that I try to label clearly as such. But lately I've just been talking about her interest in yaoi and general chats she might have with Zii, probably not even mentioning sex directly.

(Wiseguy ended up on my Ignore List months ago, so I don't have much idea at all what he thinks.)

As to whether she's ignorant in some way... People can know all the mechanics of sex, and even have received some good advice on emotional implications, and still come to completely different conclusions, thanks to their different tastes and impulses and hang-ups. I'd assume that Ruby knows enough about the mechanics of what goes where to survive.* She also knows perfectly well that some people enjoy sex a lot, and get very enthusiastic about it, but we know that she's convinced herself that's mainly a male tendency, which allows her to feel that her own repression is "normal" and reasonable.

Equally, we know that she doesn't want to be "like Amber", who she defines as the opposite of her self-controlled and sensible self, and that's doubtless tied up with the bad experience at the teenage party; any time she thinks about sex, she's likely to suffer visions of her sister, naked and doing weird stuff, which would be enough to mess up anyone's sexuality. But that's not a matter of ignorance; that's repression, an understandable hang-up caused by seeing that Amber-Amber porn video, and a lot of self-justification. She's also got a serious obsession with respectability; she's perpetually afraid that everyone she meets is judging her, and she doesn't want anyone thinking that she engages in anything as sticky and unrestrained as sex.

If you said to her that perfectly respectable women can enjoy monogamous sexual relationships with men they like without turning into promiscuous maniacs, she'd likely shiver and say "Maybe they can - people say so - but that's their choice when they can find the time. I'm too busy to waste my time that way, and I don't feel the need. There are plenty of happy single people around, you know." It's not so much that she thinks doing sex at all automatically turns you into Amber, it's thinking that there's no point in starting with sex if you don't plan to continue, and she's convinced herself that she's not interested at all.

By theory I am referring to what makes Ruby so self repressing. It is obvious that she took the opposite direction of her sister but how did it become so extreme. I could see her having a negative opinion of boys, but still indulge in self gratification, but Ruby seems to believe any relax in control will be imitating Amber. As such I theorize that she has never had anyone she can confide her concerns and the effect is becoming debilitating.

I don't know about people Zii knows, but as I've said before, Ruby may well not be the first customer in the Yaoi section of the shop to have a hang-up about her own interests - and anyway, Zii's more the kind to want to tease and persuade Ruby round to admitting her interest rather than taunting and humiliating her. She a libertine, not a sadist, and anyway that's better business.

People Zii knows. Like Dillon she cannot take credit for turning straight people gay or bisexual unless they really desired what Zii was offering. Sonya is a good albeit extreme example, but one that literally hits at home is her sister. Zii recalls her being a shy and curious girl and the rest is history. However, if Ruby sees any similarities with young Amber and herself in the present this is all going to end badly.

[wiseguy]

your reasoning is why I say that the boys said something along the lines of
"do the same things the girls in the porn movie are doing to us", if they knew Amber Amber is Amber Larose is irrevelant

thus she "blames Amber" for making the boys desire for her to do same things her sister was doing and it started her negative view of Sex(not just boys, or she would have become a lesbian)

[wi1dfire]

Now Zii is just messing with the idiot. Hopefully she convinces Ruby to walk out with $100 in yaoi, so that she can start her collection properly. Dillon would approve.

At the same time, she's a hardcore nerd, which means that she's not only prone to excess enthusiasm and gushing, she'll make sure that she gets the technical vocabulary right...

I would have said know-it-all, not nerd. Besides yaoi, has she ever displayed this level of enthusiasm or gushing on any topic?

[Spidrift]

By theory I am referring to what makes Ruby so self repressing. It is obvious that she took the opposite direction of her sister but how did it become so extreme. I could see her having a negative opinion of boys, but still indulge in self gratification, but Ruby seems to believe any relax in control will be imitating Amber.

Ruby's problems are cartoonishly extreme, for something with a single root cause so long ago, but not totally implausible. That party incident must have happened at just the wrong moment, just as she was beginning to get her head around the idea of sex. Now, every time she thinks about sex, she gets a mental image of her own sister, up on screen doing weird things while a bunch of teenage boys whoop at the sight. That'd be enough to trigger anyone's barf reflex.

Then stack that with Ruby's deep need to be respected - to have people take her seriously. Sex, for her, is something that happens in porn while teenage boys make hooting noises. Of course she doesn't want to do any such thing; it's not just disgusting, it's publicly disgusting and a guarantee of not getting any respect from anyone, ever.

Resolving this is likely to require a boyfriend who takes her seriously, shows her respect, and doesn't rush things. Andy is ... not the worst candidate, I guess.

As such I theorize that she has never had anyone she can confide her concerns and the effect is becoming debilitating.

Well, no; she's an introvert, she wants to be respected, and she's deliberately kept the primary trigger for her problem secret from the only people who she might have been able to talk to. She may have had potential female friends ... who started talking about boys and stuff in perfectly normal, casual, jokey ways, and promptly triggered her squick reflex, crashing the friendship before it even started. She hasn't even explained her real problem to Dillon, who's done a fair job of getting inside her guard, and Amber is totally bloody clueless. She has a ways to go yet.

At the same time, she's a hardcore nerd, which means that she's not only prone to excess enthusiasm and gushing, she'll make sure that she gets the technical vocabulary right...

I would have said know-it-all, not nerd. Besides yaoi, has she ever displayed this level of enthusiasm or gushing on any topic?

We're going to end up quibbling definitions here. For clarity, my usual definition of a nerd would be someone who privileges the intellectual over the physical or the social. Given that, well, nerds just are prone to gushing enthusiasm, in my experience, and to coming across as, yes, know-it-alls. The high regard for an intellectual approach means that they pick up a lot of jargon about their interests (they may not know it all, but they know a fair amount); the relatively low social skills mean that they don't know better than to restrain themselves from gushing about it.

And no, we hadn't seen this with Ruby before, except insofar as she was easily persuaded to acquire Minew, but it wasn't terribly unpredictable. This is basically Ruby being written to the character type that was previously hinted. She's suffering an especially bad case with regard to yaoi, partly because of the need for comedy and partly because her sexual repression has found an outlet here, but this might not be the last time. A hundred strips down the line, with Ruby somewhat recovered from the yaoi fixation, we might get a sequence where, say, she drags Andy to a silent film festival or a sculpture gallery, and then keeps him up half the night telling him how wonderful that stuff was, and why - and it'd be in character. That's not a prediction, just an observation about academically bright people with underdeveloped social skills.

(And also an explanation of why Ruby is something of an identification character for me.)

[wi1dfire]

Except she's not even shown herself to be all that bright. There's a stronger case for the opposite, really. She has a college degree, yes. But so do a lot of people, and many of them aren't that bright either. In fact, for all her disdain for Amber, she's not really demonstrated that she's smarter than her older sister. I'll grant that she probably sees herself as smart.

I'm well aware that Ruby is an identification character for you. I've often wondered if part of what I've been calling your head-cannons are simply instances in which you've projected your own characteristics onto Ruby, instead of actually seeing her as she's been written. Because, to be blunt, Ruby as written is an arrogant, overly judgmental jerk who has a tendency to blame other people for her own problems, and has zero interest in seeing anyone's viewpoint but her own. None of that ruins her as a character; she's actually rather fascinating as a fictional entity, but she's not someone I'd want to know in real life.

[CFT]

Well, allow me to"butt in" to this conversation, wi1dfire. I don't have the slightest self-identification issue with Ruby (which Spidrift has to an extent), and I find that I couldn't disagree more with your second paragraph. I haven't seen a single clue of actual arrogance or "judgmental jerkism" from her (only instances where she "pretends" to be so in order to "wall" herself from others and escape embarrassing situations), nor any inability to see the viewpoint of others (unless that "other" is specifically Amber of course) nor any case of blaming others for her problems (Amber always being the exception). I'm really wondering if we're reading the same comic frankly (or who is the one having "head-canons" here) . Her interaction with Dillon shows that you are wrong in your assessment. She hasn't ever honestly judged his way of life*, can obviously understand his viewpoint, was humble enough to receive and follow advice from him, and to help him without asking for something back, etc.
*obviously you can find sentences of things Ruby said that taken out of context seem to contradict what I just claimed, but to me it is clear as day that all of those instances is Ruby being "backed in a corner" (pressured emotionally) and wildly "lashing out" without understanding what she's saying or -especially- actually believing the things she says. It's obvious (from the facial expressions the writing team gives her and the other scenes where she's not under pressure and behaves 100% differently) that this is the "canon" interpretation of her character, though maybe it doesn't work for you?

I'll give you though that I agree with your first paragraph. She really hasn't been depicted as exceptionally smart. Above average, maybe, but nothing too special. But then again, in this universe, who is? (it takes a genius to write one, also)

Also, apologies if my tone is a bit confrontational here, it is definitely not my intention, but wi1dfire's last post was very "bizarre" in the amount of misinterpretation, especially on the "judgmental" accusations. She's only really being judgmental against Amber because she has an axe to grind there and that is her big, red button. Otherwise, she's more open minded than freaking Sonya.