03-02-15 Truly believable

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Spidrift
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Re: 03-02-15 Truly believable

Post by Spidrift »

MuchachoNL wrote:And here I thought Amber was different, because she really cared for Gary.
She isn't sure she's seeing Gary again, because she didn't think she handled that last thing with him quite right. Actually, she's not seeing him again for a while because he's too stupid to call her, and for some reason she doesn't think she can call him. Though it's not like they were really suited anyway.

But anyway, Amber is classified in the latest Ma3 print volume's Cast List as "Porn-Casual", and this is just another instance of that. Just because she may spend the night banging Ray's brains out doesn't mean that she's any less serious about Gary. Getting over that - learning to treat sex as something that's a little more than trivial - is Amber's personal character path.
majek wrote:Well a slut never changes...
Big fat hint; the last person to use the word "slut" on these boards is currently on a month's suspension. Get a clue.
majek wrote:...hopefully Dillon and Amber make her feel very bad after this.
They may well, but Amber won't understand why at first. Dillon may eventually admit that Ray was an old crush of his, and then Amber would feel a bit bad, but she may actually start telling him that he can't go laying preemptive claims to every bloody good-looking guy in Montreal, whatever their orientation. Ruby, on the other hand, won't be able to express why she's unhappy about this, so Amber will just think that Ruby is angry again for no comprehensible reason. And their relationship will just get worse.

Unless, being lumbered with each other again for the night, Dillon and Ruby actually manage to talk a bit, and Dillon draws out something about Ruby's problem with Amber. If she's persuaded to face that much of the truth, Ruby may at least be able to tell Amber a bit of why she's angry. Though she probably won't be able to explain all of it, so Amber may just think that she's jealous about Ray, and ask innocently if she shouldn't just do something with Andy...

(Which is a mistake she's likely to make sooner or later anyway, because she thinks it's unethical to withhold sex from a boyfriend. Amber is likely to find whatever relationship Ruby forms with Andy very confusing.)
Osaru Sensei wrote:Either Dilly-poo is very trusting or downright naïve in that last panel.
He's not entirely stupid, but it takes him a little time to switch mental tracks. He's still thinking "acting lessons". Ruby is a little bit more mentally agile.
Maechris wrote:Remember Amber expressed a wish to be held like this a long time ago, and best of what we know her only sexual encounters in a long while were... Nathan + Dillon, Zii, Gary, and Gary + Chanelle.
Actually, "a long time ago" was the previous day in comics time. But yes. While I don't exactly expect this to become a long-term relationship - Ray is just reaffirming his heterosexuality, Amber is just getting her rocks off - Ray actually fits Amber's specification for the kind of guy she wants far better than Gary does.
Absinthe Green wrote:As for the situation here - Nah, not feeling the sympathy. I love Dillon, but he was being covert and manipulative, and both he and Ruby were coming close to crossing a line w/ a somewhat confused Ray.
Dillon had suffered enough character development to realise that what he was doing initially with Ray was plain wrong. This is kind of grinding his nose in the fact that he can't have Ray (at least until and unless Ray processes the discovery of his bisexual side enough to get some confidence back, and then decides to experiment a bit, and decides to risk experimenting with a friend), but if he was sincere about accepting that truth, well, now's his chance to show he meant it by not throwing a tantrum. Give him credit, he's been doing okay so far.

Interesting bonus test; Amber tells him later where she was last night...

I do feel some sympathy for Ruby, but that's not because she isn't getting what she wants; it's because she can't really admit what she wants, and her head is in a mess over that. She could have kissed Ray if she was more relaxed about sex, but of course she didn't; what she really wanted was the live-action yaoi show, and yes, she was being grossly amoral and clumsily manipulative about getting that. But she's normally a better person than that; she could only act so badly because she couldn't understand her own desires, so she could lie to herself to the point of insanity. She'll likely get there eventually, and then it will cost her some tears and some self-hatred before she can go after what she needs with enough honesty to get it.
brasca wrote:Amber is not a slut, but she is disproportionately fortunate and that can be annoying.
The problem with people slut-shaming Amber is not that the word doesn't fit her personally; it's that people shouldn't be using the bloody word in the first place. She has that porn-casual attitude, she takes full advantage of her good luck, and actually, she's had sex in exchange for material rewards before now. The misogynistic idiots have plenty of material with her, but that doesn't justify their attitudes.

And conversely, calling what she gets "good luck" is slightly missing the point. She's a good-looking woman whose sex-positive attitude is off the scale; of course she can get laid rather easily. The unlikely thing is the dry spell she was apparently suffering before this comic started. That's not her problem. Her problem is that she doesn't understand how other people have different, valid views of sex. She missed a clue or two with Dillon here (not that it should have stopped her), she doesn't understand Gary's confusion, and she completely, utterly fails to understand Ruby. The last is the killer, because she doesn't have a clue why Ruby gets angry at her, but it evidently worries her. She's got someone sharing her room who hates her, it's the ally she's going to need when she comes out to their parents about her porn career, and she hasn't a freakin' clue how to fix this.

So Amber's punishment for her faults isn't sexual frustration; it's the danger of become lonely and isolated from people who'd love her if she made some small changes in her behaviour.
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Re: 03-02-15 Truly believable

Post by Fluffy »

Osaru Sensei wrote:Either Dilly-poo is very trusting or downright naïve in that last panel.
I'd be more inclined to think he's largely in denial (note the sweatdrop on his brow).

He knows what's about to take place; and he's not thrilled about it - so is desperately trying to see it as the two goofing off.
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Re: 03-02-15 Truly believable

Post by dwarfling »

She's having sex with some good looking guy who she just met, at her place, basically in front of her sister and her best friend. And she ain't even drunk. Suspension of disbelief aside, yes, she is totally being a slut here.

Banned for hate speech. And, wow, first post and all.

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Re: 03-02-15 Truly believable

Post by Spidrift »

"Slut" is an insult. She's being weird by most people's standards, and it's not a sort of behaviour I'd recommend to anyone, but I don't see any reason to insult her.* Her worst fault is assuming that other people think like she does, but that's not "slutty", that's clueless.


*Beyond, you know, misogynistic stupidity. And we don't have any stupid misogynists here, I'm sure.
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Re: 03-02-15 Truly believable

Post by TCampbell »

Absinthe Green wrote:There's a petite yet belligerent contingent that REALLY gets off grinding axes at the sex-positive female characters. Is all. :-@.
I am pretty much out of patience with that "petite but belligerent contingent." I understand MA3 and its relatives attract readers who identify strongly with Gary, who overlook his flaws and take his frustrations personally, and express those frustrations by attacking anyone they consider the author of his distress.

I just don't much care anymore when that frustration starts manifesting as misogyny. We've recently suspended four posters for slut-shaming and/or transphobia, and I'm formally proposing we make that general moderation policy from here on out, to be automatically applied without any further discussion. We could widen it to hate speech in general, and we may, but those are the flavors of hate speech we have the most problems with.

I'm only a member of the team and I don't always get my way, but I figured you all deserved a heads-up.

To end this on a slightly more pleasant note, I've always felt that people who dismiss characters with a quick judgment are cheating themselves of a special joy. I'm generally aware of things that Amber, Ruby, Dillon, and Gary are doing wrong in their lives, but I'm far more interested in wearing their identities for a few minutes, asking myself what it's like to be them. Experiencing life through different eyes. That seems like the whole point to me. It's why I write fiction, why I edit it, and why I read it. (There are a few characters worthy of fairly immediate censure like Nathan and Yvan, but they're exceptional, and even they have a degree of humanity that makes them offer a different kind of pleasure.)
Brasca wrote:My problem with the outcome is she's had no shortage of pleasure as of lately. She just had the most incredible romp with Gary and although she had no knowledge of it she sabotaged any reciprocation with her other porn star friends. Sure Dillon and Ruby have no claim on Ray or free yaoi demonstrations respectively that doesn't change the fact that Amber gets lucky again and everyone else (except Ray) leave with nothing. Amber is not a slut, but she is disproportionately fortunate and that can be annoying.
Chanelle was the one who invited the crowd, so even after you factor in unintended consequences there's some blame to go around. (Gary's inability to say no has to be a factor there, too.)

It's certainly true that Amber's perceived good fortune is annoying to Ruby. Despite the enviability of certain aspects of her life, she isn't actually getting everything she wants-- but she's been more of a supporting player in SDB lately, so that may not be readily apparent.

Slight addendum to both of those...

What we find acceptable behavior for our characters and what we find acceptable behavior on the forums are two different things. Zii's own conscience slut-shamed her a few updates ago in MA3 and it's not inconceivable that Ruby might have some short, sharp words about her sister's sexual lifestyle at some point. We also have characters screaming at each other, beating each other up, and being Yvan, and I wouldn't allow that kind of behavior from guests in my home, either.

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Last edited by TCampbell on Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 03-02-15 Truly believable

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TCampbell wrote:It's certainly true that Amber's perceived good fortune is annoying to Ruby. Despite the enviability of certain aspects of her life, she isn't actually getting everything she wants-- but she's been more of a supporting player in SDB lately, so that may not be readily apparent.
I'm not seeing Amber not getting things. She's got the apartment and the acting career, she's now getting a lot of good sex, and she's even got a way to mitigate Ruby's uptightness, sometimes. I get that she still has problems, some of which she isn't fully aware of herself, but I'm not seeing much yearning at present.
TCampbell wrote:... it's not inconceivable that Ruby might have some short, sharp words about her sister's sexual lifestyle at some point.
That I actually want to see. Not because I want to see Amber hurt, but I want to see how she handles that sort of criticism - and how deep Ruby's censoriousness goes when she's heard Amber's reply, if any. And, of course, that sort of thing is exactly what Amber is scared of hearing from her parents - which is a hanging longer-term plot - and she won't be able to resolve that if she can't even get Ruby a bit more on her side.

I do kind of wish that Ruby would snap soon (or that Amber would snap at one more instance of Ruby snarkiness), and they'd just start yelling at each other. It'd get unpleasant for a while, but there's a lot of stuff in the air between them that could do with clearing,* and that seems to be the only way it's going to happen. Unless Dillon got to do a lot of running back and forth, talking to each of them about the other.

But, I know, more drama and comedy in spinning this out.

* Just to start with, I suspect that each of them thinks that the other has had it easy in life, while they themselves have had to work their guts out.
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Re: 03-02-15 Truly believable

Post by FlashD81 »

So I go to get some more coffee and I come back to this... interesting thread.

Anyway getting back to the topic at hand. I am going to be honest and say that I found Amber's move here with Ray a little hot. I can't blame him for wanting to keep it going either.

Dillon, in a way, gets what he deserves. He took advantage of Ray in order to live out a fantasy of his. His development and Ruby's involvement helped stop it before it got too far. Depending on how he handles the next few updates I think this will be a good thing for him going forward.

Ruby has me worried though. Keeping in mind that she has been repressing her desires for a VERY long time, this sudden turn of events seems like too much for her to handle well. She is still in denial about her growing sexual tastes and, at this rate, is going to need help soon getting them sorted out. Ruby having a blow up with Amber might be a shortcut to that understanding, in that she will have to deal with the fallout of such a situation.

All said I'm looking forward to see how this all pans out.
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Re: 03-02-15 Truly believable

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Edit: Nah. I'll just ask a mod that question.

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Re: 03-02-15 Truly believable

Post by 'J' »

oh ruby, 'aint nobody getting much sleep in that apartment tonight.



Frostbite wrote:I really don't get how everyone is saying "Amber is a slut, poor Gary" when the guy is currently picking up girls(albeit not on his own choosing, but I doubt he'd complain about getting with the fangirl) and clearly not that hung up over Amber. They both seemed to know that it was a casual thing they were doing, and are quite comfortable with this. Hell, Gary probably would've gone with Tracy if Yvan wasn't having him "teach him his ways".
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Re: 03-02-15 Truly believable

Post by Cortez »

crimzontearz wrote:Sighs

So the c authors are ssetting up Zii and Gary by 1: trying to show Zii cares as more than just a friend and 2: making the fanbase dislike Amber for stomping on Gary's feelings by hooking up with a guy she just met


Lovely....
Hell of a double standard there buddy. You forget that Gary and Amber aren't a couple and that Gary flirts with other women too.

Oh, but it's bad when Amber does it. Even though she's still single.

Speaking of Amber, she doesn't know about Dillon's crush on his childhood friend either. So she shouldn't feel bad about this either.

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Re: 03-02-15 Truly believable

Post by Fluffy »

Hell, even if she did know, why should that stop her from pursuing something with Ray if he's showing as much interest in her as she has in him? Like someone else mentioned in this thread, Dillon can't lay claim to every attractive male he comes across - no matter what they're sexual orientation may be.
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Re: 03-02-15 Truly believable

Post by Don Alexander »

As TCampbell has pointed out (and Spidrift also hinted at at the top of the page), the creative team has had enough.

Just in case it has not been clear, this is not a democratic country and there is no free speech here. Oh, of course we'll let almost everything pass, but there comes a point where we slam the boot down.

While it is in general no problem to attack and insult the characters in the comic (no one is censoring all the people who are calling Yvan in Ma3 very bad things), labeling characters in the comics as "sluts" just because they have a relaxed and carefree attitude toward it (and happen to like it!) reveals a general mentality that is clearly not inappropriate for these boards. Not to mention, it obviously leads to other readers/posters feeling insulted and aggravated, which henceforth destroys the entire thread (see the recent case in Ma3, leading to a lockdown).

Therefore, I have banned majek and dwarfling, and this time it is permanent. The last warning was obviously insufficient.

Other than that, this thread has luckily not derailed, so I'm leaving it open.

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Re: 03-02-15 Truly believable

Post by Don Alexander »

Anyway, back to forumite mode. For once, allow me to double-post, as I wish to keep this clearly separated.

As other have pointed out, Amber is not breaking any rules here. She and Gary are far from being a couple or anything like that, at best, they are friends with occasional benefits and lots of weird interruptions.

Ray may be a bit clueless here and there, and it seems he hasn't had much of a sex life recently either, but other than that, he's no Gary. He has not gotten the shakes or melted down, and he is decently attractive and not committed anywhere. So why not?

I agree with Fluffy, I'm quite sure Dillon does realize what's going on, but voicing it would mean stopping his nice swim in the waters of denial...
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Re: 03-02-15 Truly believable

Post by Spidrift »

Cortez wrote:Speaking of Amber, she doesn't know about Dillon's crush on his childhood friend either. So she shouldn't feel bad about this either.
Indeed. The interesting test for Dillon will be whether he can resist mentioning the fact to Amber later, in however sad and noble and pained a tone of voice.
Don Alexander wrote:I agree with Fluffy, I'm quite sure Dillon does realize what's going on, but voicing it would mean stopping his nice swim in the waters of denial...
To be honest, I think Dillon's apparent dimness is mostly there to make the strip interesting and funny. The plot point here is that Amber and Ray both forget the professional detachment, get into each other, and go off to bed together. That has to happen for the sake of the story; fine. Now, if Dillon and Ruby both understood what was going on straight away, what could they do? They'd just be standing there like faintly embarrassed lemons. Two completely different characters could provide a running snarky commentary on the process, or show a range of personal reactions the way that Zii and Gary did in similar circumstances, but that wouldn't suit these two.

So the comic needs a bit of foreground comedy while this scene happens. We get a simple joke; somebody doesn't get what's going on. That could be Ruby, but a big thing with Ruby is that she's naive and a bit innocent, but categorically not stupid. So it really has to be Dillon, who has a record for being a bit ditzy at times. Then, for a bonus, Ruby can get a tiny bit of her low-key snarkiness in on the last panel.

So - this is Dillon acting in character, but he's stuck with flaunting the stupid, in-denial side of his character - because it's funny.
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Re: 03-02-15 Truly believable

Post by Fluffy »

Spidrift wrote: Now, if Dillon and Ruby both understood what was going on straight away, what could they do?
...I seriously don't think there's any doubt that Dillon and Ruby are well aware about what's unfolding right before their eyes.

Dillon is Amber's BFF - thus knows how she is. He isn't stupid, and isn't naive about what's about to take place behind that closed door. He's just in denial that his BFF is about to score with with boyhood crush.

And Ruby's comment shows that she's well aware of what's about to happen (why else would she think she'll be spending the night in Dillon's bed instead of the one she shares with her sister?)
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