06-08-14 Can we snuggle

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Spidrift
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Re: 06-08-14 Can we snuggle

Post by Spidrift »

I think that you underestimate just how tiresome some of us can find Dillon's style. Even if he does some good - and it too often seems to be accidental or misjudged when he does - he just comes across as a pain in the bloody neck. The readers who like him more seem to have a higher tolerance for that stuff, but not wanting to spend time with screaming drama queens with no sense of personal space is hardly unusual.

(So addressing his "virtues" less subtly may not do much good. It'll just make him look even louder and more annoying - or even more of a creators' pet, if we see other characters thanking him for annoying them.)

Also, the problem with calling Dillon's joie de vivre his great virtue is that it isn't unusual in the setting. When almost every character we see seems to find a lot to enjoy in life, and bounces back from setbacks within a strip or two, Dillon doesn't look special in that respect, he just looks loud about it. (Also, he's more of a whiny little pratt when he is suffering than most of the cast. And actually, the week-long crying jag after he broke up with Matt makes him look less resilient than some of the others.) I'm remembering DiDi in the front seat of Jung's car, or Gary happily playing videogames a few days after being dumped twice, just for minor examples. It's a comedy, and you can't spend dozens of strips showing characters moping, and that's great, but it makes cheerful resilience and energy the baseline, even in characters who don't act like Dillon.

And, as to him bringing Gary and Ruby out of their shells - the trouble there is that he doesn't know when to stop. Just look at all the times we see Gary looking confused at Dillon's antics, or Ruby looking downright pained and unhappy. One feels that someone could help either of them without being such an arse about it...
Instead, he listens to Gary and Ruby's goals and says "okay, see, this is how you get there."
But he didn't with Ruby, did he? Well, he listened when she said that she was looking for a job, and spent one day providing substantial help with that, and then he dismissed all her concerns as "boring" and went back to doing whatever he wanted.

Heck, it crossed my mind recently that if Amber and Dillon left town right now for a three-month location shoot, leaving Ruby flat-sitting, there'd be a fifty-fifty chance that they'd come back to discover her with a job and a boyfriend. She's made her start, and she isn't stupid. She only needs so much help, but we just know that Dillon is going to give her more, and be annoying about it.

Plus, neither Gary nor Ruby ever seems to learn the lesson that they both really need from Dillon; enough assertiveness to tell him to back off and leave them in peace sometimes.

But anyway, thanks for the clarification. I now know that, any time Dillon does get hurt, I don't have to feel stupid and malicious for enjoying the sight; I can appreciate it as part of his necessary, promised character development.
Last edited by Spidrift on Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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suranae
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Re: 06-08-14 Can we snuggle

Post by suranae »

I would like to submit the fact that being able to extract joy out of life does not keep one from being a royal sized pain in the ass. Which Dillon generally is.

It should be noted that most of this help was offered as part of a hare brained scheme of some sort. Gary actually lucked out that kissing lessons turned out to be useful for something else. The lord above have mercy upon him if it didn't. Its vaguely implied but never on panel explained why and how this mind blowing kiss works.

I happen to believe that Gary would have been helped as much had they actually found a way to unwind his hang ups with fairer sex. Similar to the manner zii punched a hole in his misconception about porn and how facial shots aren't fun in real life. Of course this would slow down the crazy high jinks.

In short the major problem is that no one in ma3 or SDB is willing to say "that's crap and you know it" aloud. The in universe crew runs away from every problem or lets it fester.
Last edited by suranae on Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Spidrift
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Re: 06-08-14 Can we snuggle

Post by Spidrift »

Oh God, I now realise that any time any of us say "Dillon is a pain in the arse", TCampbell may feel obliged to edit Dillon into an even bigger pain in the arse, to show us how wonderful Dillon is.

Aaargh.
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Bambikles
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Re: 06-08-14 Can we snuggle

Post by Bambikles »

It all boils down to personality types one likes or dislikes. I suppose Dillon is designed like some male Manic Pixie Dream Girl, which is fun to read, but probably hard to live with IRL.
Heck, it crossed my mind recently that if Amber and Dillon left town right now for a three-month location shoot, leaving Ruby flat-sitting, there'd be a fifty-fifty chance that they'd come back to discover her with a job and a boyfriend.
I'm afraid overestimating Ruby very much here.

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Spidrift
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Re: 06-08-14 Can we snuggle

Post by Spidrift »

I said fifty-fifty, and yeah, even that may well be rose-tinted optimism. But my point stands; Ruby has been taken out of her comfort zone by her situation and by Dillon, but now she really does seem to have begun to notice things like her interest in men for herself. I can't see why she'd be incapable of moving on from here by herself, given time and a little luck. Dillon's most recent actions look almost designed to push her back into her shell, by confirming her views on men and relationships.
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dmra
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Re: 06-08-14 Can we snuggle

Post by dmra »

@T Campbell,

thanks for the detailed reply.

I basically agree with you about Dillon's virtues but suspect I'm less forgiving of his excesses. Like I said, he reminds me a bit too much of people I've known in the real world. Great fun to be with most of the time but best avoided when the "look at me!, look at me!, look at me!" factor gets turned up to 11.

Hopefully we'll see more of the virtues and less of the drama queen tendencies as the comic progresses.

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Spidrift
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Re: 06-08-14 Can we snuggle

Post by Spidrift »

That's fine - unless the authors and editor define his drama queen flamboyance as the root of his virtues. Which it seems that they do.

Which means that everything they do to show off his "virtues" will make him look worse in the eyes of people who are already annoyed by him.
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themacnut
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Re: 06-08-14 Can we snuggle

Post by themacnut »

Spidrift wrote: Also, the problem with calling Dillon's joie de vivre his great virtue is that it isn't unusual in the setting. When almost every character we see seems to find a lot to enjoy in life, and bounces back from setbacks within a strip or two, Dillon doesn't look special in that respect, he just looks loud about it. (Also, he's more of a whiny little pratt when he is suffering than most of the cast.) I'm remembering DiDi in the front seat of Jung's car, or Gary happily playing videogames a few days after being dumped twice, just for minor examples.
Actually, he'd just been dumped for the third time; remember before Sonya there had been Yuki and Kiley. Your original point stands though, many of us forum readers thought being dumped by Sonya might have been the final straw that sent Gary into depression, but we were quite wrong. Gary did appear rather content when Senna showed up and upended his world, ultimately for the better (not necessarily for Senna though :)) ). I suspect that even if things go south for Gary with Amber, he'll still be able to look back and smile about finally goinking his dream girl, if only for a little while.

As for DIllon's joy of life, I suspect if he tempered that joy with a little consideration and self-control, he'd be more fun for many of us to watch. Maybe his upcoming character growth will end with him coming to this conclusion himself. I do partly agree with TCampbell in that Gary and Ruby needed to be dragged kicking and screaming out of their comfort zones so they could grow as characters and people, and Dillon was probably the only one who would cheerfully stomp across their personal boundaries to do so. Still, it's fortunate for Gary that Dillon doesn't live with him anymore, otherwise I'm not sure he ever would have gotten laid otherwise, and Ruby may very well have to put some space between her and Dillon to finish her own personal growth.
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TCampbell
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Re: 06-08-14 Can we snuggle

Post by TCampbell »

Spidrift wrote:That's fine - unless the authors and editor define his drama queen flamboyance as the root of his virtues. Which it seems that they do.

Which means that everything they do to show off his "virtues" will make him look worse in the eyes of people who are already annoyed by him.
Even if we think we've "got it right" in Book 1 (and I'm not saying we do), that doesn't mean the idea for Book 2 is "more of the same, only louder." Menage a 3 was about the simmering sexual tension between three roommates and one guy facing the seemingly impossible task of getting laid, until it became about different things. It and Sticky Dilly Buns have other themes which are more fundamental, which I won't get into at this point because that could be too spoilery. But growth does involve the sometimes painful realization that you actually aren't perfect the way you are and you may have to do more to overcome your problems than wait them out.

[If there is ONE thing I am most proud of about Pixie Trix, it's that it very rarely goes into that territory. Gary's process of growth may be painfully slow, but that's because he has to learn things, not just because he has to wait a bit longer before a woman realizes what a "nice guy" he is and adopts him forever. He has to grow, he has to earn it. Similarly, Sandra has to work like a maniac for victories as a model she scarcely has time to enjoy, and while Dillon's early contentment has been a nice change of pace, he's starting to be shown as the architect of his own troubles. He mos def has things to learn.]

By the way, I'm not sure why this should be seen as the picture of Gary's post-breakup contentment. I mean, sure, okay, Gary's not sobbing while eating ice cream in the tub, but it doesn't feel like an instant recovery to me so much as finding his own comfort food. He is pretty happy in the next strip, but you probably would be too if a woman you found attractive just sailed in the front door and declared her intention to sweep you away.

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Last edited by TCampbell on Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

suranae
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Re: 06-08-14 Can we snuggle

Post by suranae »

T, it doesn't feel that way to most likely because your editing the entire Ma3 universe. I imagine the guy at marvel who manages the x office would never believe that wolverine is over hyped and over powered.

TCampbell
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Re: 06-08-14 Can we snuggle

Post by TCampbell »

I'm not sure which statement you're responding to at this point, but I assume it's the one we started with. And all I can say is, um, my entire job depends on serving the audience, so I damn well better be able to think out of my ivory tower. There are times when Gisele and/or Dave take characters into what I feel are unlikable directions, and at that point it's my job to speak up and say "We need to find a way back out of this" (or, better, "Let's change this script before it gets drawn"). Loyalty to them prevents me from getting specific about this, but it happens.

But while the forums are a useful source of feedback, they are not, and never will be, fully representative of the comics' audience, and there's an especially strong disconnect when it comes to Dillon, according to every other metric we have. So when someone says they "can't imagine ANYONE" liking Dillon at any point (which, I know, is not what EVERYONE here is saying), then I feel like there's a little failure of imagination, there.

Okay, I promised myself I'd stop here-- got some other things that need doing today. Sticky Dilly Buns returns Tuesday, with Wolverine accidentally killing Dillon and being forced to take his place until Ruby and Amber notice the difference.

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Re: 06-08-14 Can we snuggle

Post by FlashD81 »

TCampbell wrote:Okay, I promised myself I'd stop here-- got some other things that need doing today. Sticky Dilly Buns returns Tuesday, with Wolverine accidentally killing Dillon and being forced to take his place until Ruby and Amber notice the difference.
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Spidrift
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Re: 06-08-14 Can we snuggle

Post by Spidrift »

TCampbell wrote:Even if we think we've "got it right" in Book 1 (and I'm not saying we do), that doesn't mean the idea for Book 2 is "more of the same, only louder."
The problem was your line about "underlining Dillon's virtues a bit less subtly". When the features you define as Dillon's virtues are very hard to distinguish from what one sees as his faults (the casually total disregard for other people's boundaries, for a start), that sounds very much like a threat of more of the same aggravation, only louder.
TCampbell wrote:By the way, I'm not sure why this should be seen as the picture of Gary's post-breakup contentment. I mean, sure, okay, Gary's not sobbing while eating ice cream in the tub, but it doesn't feel like an instant recovery to me so much as finding his own comfort food.
Contentment is relative. When Gary had just been through the sort of experiences that could leave strong men eating Cheerios from the packet, flavoured with salt tears, seeing Gary back on the video games seemed quite anticlimactic. "Oh, he's reverted to being Gary. How flat."

But anyway, I have to confess that I'm now quite morbidly curious what can kick Dillon into some kind of character evolution, given his hostility to ever changing. This is a man who's just crashed a dream relationship by refusing to stop acting like himself. If that couldn't make him grow up a bit, what could?
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Bambikles
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Re: 06-08-14 Can we snuggle

Post by Bambikles »

I can't see why she'd be incapable of moving on from here by herself, given time and a little luck.
Because she hes expressly stated she doesn't want a relationship, thus won't do anything to get one ? For the job, I'm almost sure she'd find one quite quickly. Though she may discover problems about her in a working environment (just speculating here, don't have anything specific in mind).

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Spidrift
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Re: 06-08-14 Can we snuggle

Post by Spidrift »

She's expressed hostility to men and relationships, but she's also not only experienced a string of involuntary sexual fantasies about men, she's started joking to herself about them ("I'm becoming a fangirl"), and telling herself that a modern woman is allowed to look at men. The contradictions must be becoming unsustainable. People can sometimes change for themselves, without continually being shoved.

And it's not like Ruby can muster any strong moral objections to sexual relationships; she just goes round saying that they're a waste of time. So the moment she decides that she has needs, or finds a guy who's worth some wasted time, she'll be able to get on with having a social life, modulo some initial clumsiness - unless she's so embarrassed by worries about what Amber or Dillon will say that she refuses to give them the satisfaction.

As to the job - that depends on her interview technique (possibly a problem) and on the economy, or rather on how the writers choose to depict it. Once she gets one, well, jobs and offices vary a lot. She may be respected for her brains and efficiency, or she may rapidly become despised for being antisocial, or whatever.
Last edited by Spidrift on Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"Brevior vita est quam pro futumentibus negotium agendo."
-- Motto of Hogshead Publishing of fond memory, and wise words to set your Foes List by.
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