06-08-14 Can we snuggle

[RickSmith]

...
Oddly, I actually liked Ma3 Dillon. He wasn't nearly as self-absorbed. He was self-absorbed, but not as much as now. His love of Gary seemed genuine and was kind of poignant after the play.

I agree. I liked Dillon more in MA3. I thought he was pretty narrow a character to be starring in his own comic, but was willing to try it for a bit to see who would be added and see what happened.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Spidrift]

Yeah. Ma3-Dillon did occasionally think about other people's feelings (though he was being a tool towards Gary from strip #2 onwards). SDB-Dillon seems to have lost that; he's been completely up himself for the last 150 strips, and he isn't getting better.

These comics are, legendarily, full of failing appalling people - but most of the major characters honestly don't seem to want to be horrible. Tristan over in SotR was set up as a real jerk, with an understandable grudge against Sandra, and yet, when he had an easy chance to take his anger out on Gary, he couldn't bring himself to do it. Even Yuki eventually recognised what she was doing to Gary. Even Sonya is prone to random acts of kindness. We just aren't getting that with SDB-Dillon; all we're getting to soften his character is self-pity, and self-pity in a jerk just inspires schadenfreude.

[Schmorgluck]

Is it necessary to use italics for a foreign word that has been fully loaned and integrated in the language? Actually I'm not quite sure of the status of the word "Schadenfreude" within the English language...

ETA: I shouldn't post before having my morning coffee, it sends me in weird tangents.

[Spidrift]

That probably depends on the degree of integration. In other words, it's a matter of taste, really. But "schadenfreude" probably still counts as a German word to English speakers, albeit a familiar one.

Though this spellchecker recognises it...

[Schmorgluck]

Heh, now the question is if it should be capitalized, like every German noun.

[Spidrift]

Look at how Sonya behaved towards Yuki and Zii. Going with Gary to hurt Yuki and cheerfully trying to break up Zii and Erik puts pretty much anything Dillon has done into the shade. Which doesn't make her a bad character but would make her a bad person, a far worse one than Dillon.

On that, by the way - Sonya set out to break up or damage two relationships, with clear reasons both times. That was bad of her; naughty Sonya, no biscuit. By his own account, Dillon has broken up, damaged, or endangered at least twenty-seven relationships, with no apparent reasons other than because he could, for the sake of twenty-seven shags, and to boast about it afterwards.

It's up to each reader which they find (far) worse. But I do know that, round here, twenty-seven is larger than two.

[dmra]

Hm, quality not quantity. Not that it really matters since,while 27 may indeed be larger than two, I still wouldn't trust my spare key with either somebody who has robbed 27 houses or somebody who has robbed 2.

As for Sonya's "reasons" they were "clear" they were also vindictive, malicious, petty, small minded, inconsiderate, selfish and motivated by jealousy and possessiveness. Not quite the kinds of things I'd classify as being worthy of "no biscuit". But then again she is (drawn as) hot so perhaps I should make allowances?

Quote removed. The DAMNed

[Whisky-Tango-Foxtrot]

However, as to Dillon - it does seem like he's just about, almost come to accept that he isn't going to get anywhere with Gary, at least on the conscious level, even if he does engage in idiot daydreams.

OTOH, take this....

"I won't give up hope! My dream guy is out there!"

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .("Maybe he'll be the 28th guy with a girlfriend you kiss!")

"Oo! 28 is lucky in Feng Shui! There is hope!"

...and then add in the fact that Gary is, quite literally, Dillon's "dream guy"...and what do you get?



Oh, ick. I hope not.

[Spidrift]

As for Sonya's "reasons" they were "clear" they were also vindictive, malicious, petty, small minded, inconsiderate, selfish and motivated by jealousy and possessiveness.

Also misguided and short-sighted, and her feet smell of elderberries. The point is that they were still reasons. Personally, I'm not sure whether someone with clear and moderately substantial reasons for doing bad stuff is better or worse than someone who does it without thinking, or for shit and giggles; slightly less dangerous, maybe, in that they're likely to be more predictable and less active overall. But that's the thing; if you want to decide whether Sonya or Dillon are "worse", you can factor that into the calculation.

Mind you, I did think that Sonya's reasons for wanting to do Yuki over were at least marginally sympathisable; Yuki is a psychotic flake who'd beaten her up at least once and tried to do again at so other times. In those circumstances, if narrative convention prevents you from going to the police, nicking the boyfriend to whom you feel you have some claim anyway might have a certain twisted logic. Her actions towards Zii were rather more short-sighted and stalker-ish, but hey, she thinks she's got a bad case of romantic love there, and we all know that romantic love justifies anything...

But remind me again why we're talking about Sonya all of a sudden?

...and then add in the fact that Gary is, quite literally, Dillon's "dream guy"...and what do you get?

More, and more finely-graded, logic than is Dillon's style.

Double post merged. The DAMNed

[dmra]

But remind me again why we're talking about Sonya all of a sudden?

Because I wondered why you seemed to be applying different moral judgements to one character rather than another when to me they seemed pretty similar. I was just curious about the apparent discrepancy.

Which on reflection is probably focussing too much on things said in the forum rather than in the comics so I'll stop before this gets totally off topic or becomes personal.

[Spidrift]

In any case, whether or not Dillon is worse than someone else, and whether I'm hypocritical in my judgements, is getting off the real point. Like I said, all these characters are certainly flawed. It may be tempting (and weirdly cathartic) for me to list all Dillon's faults, especially as he keeps harassing one character who I actually like, but if he was just a bad person, he could still be the lead character of a satisfactory comic.

The problem is not just that he's flawed; it's more that he shows no capacity for character development, good or bad, along with a severe lack of light and shade. (Sonya, I can't resist mentioning, shows vast development by comparison - much of it in the "wrong" directions, but that's cool, it makes her interesting.) Add on the fact that, well, it's not hard for some of us to find him just plain irritating, and he becomes a problem as a lead character.

Which makes the callback line in strip #150 faintly promising. If year 1 was consciously about Dillon failing to change, and year 2 is about him being made to change, we might have a story.

I still don't have to like him, though.

[dmra]

I totally agree about the lack of Dillon "growth" which was why I asked T Campbell about it a few posts ago - I'm really of hoping that his "journey" starts soon and he becomes more self aware and less shallow and, to me anyway, a lot less of a stereotype.

Lots of fiction has characters who start out as unlikeable but who look very different as the story progresses. "Pride and Prejudice" for example would be a pretty crappy book if Mr Darcy was written as a good guy from the start. I'm not expecting anything quite that classic but I am hoping that Dillon in volume 2 is a lot more interesting, and likeable, than the Dillon of volume 1.

[TCampbell]

While I'm getting a little more involved with these forums, I still can't keep up with them nearly enough to know if somebody's used them to ask me something. So, fair warning, I might not turn around an answer quickly, or even at all, if it's just posted to one of these threads. I have seen this one, though, and will respond in a bit.

[suranae]

I hope to god dillion does change at least a little bit, he is a bit much to put up with as a reader. A large portion of the problem seems to be that he's a huge flaming stereotype played almost by the numbers. Through the same could be said about everyone in the ma3 universe.

[TCampbell]

same here

I don't know how someone can not hate him

I guess you just don't know me.

I'm curious to what extent your view of Dillon is influenced by being associated with the creative team?

Giz said a few days ago that Dillon's character was flawed but was going to "grow" but the "normal" reader can only go by what they see in the published strips. Obvioulsy without giving away any secrets does knowing that there is going to be a "journey"- and presumably some of the how and what of that effect how you view him?

In my view, Dillon's chief virtue is a very important one: the ability find the joy in life, and to share that joy with others, including Zii, Amber, Matt, and Jerzy. He can certainly be hurt, and feel it deeply, but his buoyancy and confidence endure and overcome such hardships. Admittedly, we haven't thrown him much in the way of hardship in Volume 1, but he got a few bumps in Menage a 3 and the rules of interesting storytelling seem to favor trouble of some sort on the horizon.

His secondary virtue might be a controversial one, but I'll gladly take his side in it. The stories often put him next to people who don't share his extroversion, and he messes with their comfort zones, but he has a desire to help those people break out of their shell a bit, and frankly, they need this help. Ruby has already gained a certain amount of confidence in dealing with other people and done things she never expected to do that have enriched her life-- including, yes, going on two dates and successfully maintaining a disguise for an evening (at least outside of the washroom). No, there is nothing wrong with not dating, but Ruby's insistence that she avoids dating because she's a serious businesswoman who doesn't have time doesn't really ring that true, especially when she's unemployed. She has avoided dating out of fear, and even if she ends up not dating again after a time, her life will be better for the taste.

Gary learned a kissing technique that has brought his character enormous benefits. The fact that Dillon did not grasp the significance of that technique is not particularly relevant. If Dillon was teaching Gary what he thought he was teaching Gary, if it were Gary's kisses and not his cunnilingus that were brain-meltingly good, Gary would still be seeing a lot of action, still getting enough women interested in him that he could start to think about what he really wants in a woman.

Now, Dillon's an efficient sort of guy, and he has a way of marrying these character-building exercises with his own more hedonistic pursuits, but his participation in Gary and Ruby's growth is no accident. Did he want the chance to mack on Gary? Sure. Does it stroke his ego to think of himself as the sensei and Ruby as the student, focusing on her difficulties and diverting the spotlight from his own flaws? Absolutely! But if he were half the scumbag some people seem to think he is, he'd have sabotaged Gary's "training" instead of actively improving it (and therefore helping Gary be with women instead of him). Or he'd neg Ruby about things she couldn't change about herself to keep her dependent on him. Instead, he listens to Gary and Ruby's goals and says "okay, see, this is how you get there." And they keep listening because he produces results.

This is pretty much Dillon's entire social life, barring the occasional, short-lived fit of jealousy. Sharing joy, helping others, having fun. And honestly, my mind boggles at how many forum posters have a hard time finding something to like about that. At this point, Dillon's biggest current faults have been pretty well-documented, and those are to be addressed, but it's possible that some future story may need to underline those virtues a bit less subtly.