Vampire Cheerleaders Talk

Meet 5 hungry vampires who sure know how to show their school spirit...and the wacky crew of monster hunters out to get them!

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Re: Vampire Cheerleaders Talk

Post by Hodag » Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:35 am

I said it months ago guys, VC/PMS swimsuit calendar for the win. :D

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tau neutrino
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Re: Vampire Cheerleaders Talk

Post by tau neutrino » Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:12 am

I recently saw three things that reminded me of Mrs. Hartley. One was a Facebook post that said "By the time a woman realizes that her mother was right, she has a daughter that thinks she's wrong." (Although this wouldn't apply to Heather...). Another one was Kelly Ripa's interview Thursday on Letterman, where she did an imitation of her teenage daughter complaining about Ripa being too strict for not letting her wear a "teeny bikini". The third one was on The Goldbergs. The mother on the show is pretty overbearing herself, and her oldest son and daughter decide to ignore her guilt trips after getting advice from their grandfather. So the next time their mother does her stunt of getting out of the car and walking, they leave her. This shocks everyone, including the grandfather. As the kids try to explain to the disapproving cop who brought the mother home that she was trying to manipulate them with guilt, he retorted, "You mean like every mother?"

The point being that any good mother will be seen as overbearing by her children at some point, even someone as perky as Kelly Ripa. (The Shelfers will probably experience this.) In Japanese manga, Mrs. Hartley would probably be seen as lenient compared to Chichi in DBZ. Sailor moon's mother threw her out of the house after a bad exam. In Assassination Classroom, Nagisa's mother is so determined that her son have the life she never did that she makes him look like a girl and later kidnaps him to burn down his classroom to force him to return to the main school. The Hartley's let Heather pursue her passion for gymnastics and cheerleading. Even in America, a "tiger mom" would probably criticize Mrs. Hartley for letting her daughter perform in a short skirt in front of boys instead of learning a musical instrument. Katie Kane probably regards Stephanie as equally overbearing, even leaving out being dragged along on cryptid hunting expeditions. (Katie might even be jealous of Heather's circumstances.) The Hartley's almost certainly wouldn't let Heather go to an unsupervised party of mostly boys with beer served, but would Stephanie be different? The biggest effect of their strictness is that Heather is still a virgin at the beginning of her junior year. That would only be strict in a sex comedy and not being a jerk even then. Their parenting style actually seems to be effective. A "goodie-two-shoes" is actually seen as desirable in a child, as opposed to a delinquent like Suki or stuck up b*****s like the Ainley Aces. The traits from being "little miss perfect" helped make Heather senior president, and she didn't mind the praise she got from Lori for handling the prom preparations so well.

(BTW what qualifies the Hartleys as "avid churchgoers? Going more than twice a year seems to make someone a fanatic, while Kamala Khan's mosque attendance in Ms. Marvel is lauded as demonstrating her spiritual devotion.)

In manga, attacking parents, like Heather does is unthinkable. Unless they're martial artists like in Ranma 1/2, it's a MEH, especially if it's the mother. Nagisa in AssClass above would never hit his mother even when she's batshit crazy. There have been attempts to excuse Heather with a Menendez brothers defense, which is blaming the victims. When Heather does get abused, it's by Lori throwing her into a wall and threatening to stake her. Her appeal to family with Lori is hypocritical since she turned on her mortal one and let the VC use them in Vegas. Using Bobby Singer's definition of family on Supernatural, was there ever a time Heather's parents didn't have her back when she was mortal? Given this, who can blame the Harley's for greeting Heather with hostility after being deglamored? In addition to hitting them and enslaving them, she'd fed on a pregnant Mrs. Hartley. They were defending their unborn child. (Mr. Hartley was using the stake to ward Heather off, not kill her.)

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Re: Vampire Cheerleaders Talk

Post by tau neutrino » Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:03 am

Following up on my last post, nowadays parents are in trouble if they don't constantly have their children under direct observation.

I mentioned tiger mothers, and here's the origin of the phrase, Amy Chua's Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother. Talk about strict. The Hartley's sin for some people seems to be that they don't follow the view that Chua labels “Western” – that a child’s self-esteem is paramount. One poster (now banned) was a rabid VC apologist who hated Leonard, Stephanie Kane, and the Hartley's, and never failed to call the last abusive for grabbing Heather's arm. Without irony, he also posted this strip of a character that he liked a lot better, Maria Delacroix, who has no problem dragging her own offspring off while ignoring her cries of pain. Maria seems to have a little tiger mother in her.

UPDATE: Saw this link on Facebook. Girls with Nagging Moms Grow Up to Be More Successful. Here's one from the other end of the parenting spectrum.

UPDATE: More parenting style in the news. Mom slaps son, rips him from Baltimore riots. She's been called "Mother of the Year" by some, and I don't think her reaction would if she'd been in Mrs. Hartley's situation with her own daughter. Is she an abusive parent?

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Re: Vampire Cheerleaders Talk

Post by tau neutrino » Thu May 14, 2015 11:46 am

I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere, but Jovita and Brandy's names seem to be based on two actresses, Jovita Bush and Brandy Woods, in The Cheerleaders, the inspiration for the first book.

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Re: Vampire Cheerleaders Talk

Post by tau neutrino » Wed May 20, 2015 4:54 am

Moved from the Q&A thread.
MrJustice4 wrote:
Adam Arnold wrote:
Sokora wrote:Somehow I always got the feeling that Leonard and Heather would be an item.
Consider the movie Pretty In Pink. Molly Ringwald's character (Andie) has geeky Duckie pining over her, but Andie has a crush on and ends up with hunky Blane. So Leonard is like Duckie... there's chemistry due to them being long-time friends, but Leonard's been friend zoned for life.
Even though the story is over and Heather FINALLY apologized for what she did to Leonard(10 years after he left), I still find it hard to like Heather. Especially when she knew of his feelings for her and took advantage of them! Leonard warned Heather about the cheerleaders, she didn't listen and got attacked by them! The next day, she TOTALLY blows him off! Then, when Leonard tries to save her again, Heather back stabs her OWN friend by helping to make him into a thrall! She did feel bad about it at first, but then she got used to having him be a slave and treated him like dirt! Then, after Leonard was free from their spell by the P.M.S., he tried to save her, YET AGAIN, at prom! He thought Heather became a vampire and only did what she did because of Lorna/Lori! She then admits to Leonard that she had a choice all along! She then chooses to go back and get captured along with the others ONLY to find out later that it was a setup by Cressida Harrow to get all of them! Leonard, being the coolest guy ever AND also being a TRUE FRIEND that he is, he found OUT where they were held and LEAD the P.M.S. to save them! Only after 10 years since he left does she FINALLY apologize for the way she and the other girls have treated him! I honestly can for give Heather for ALL of the stuff she did. ALL OF IT! If she didn't say, and I quote, "I HAD A CHOICE!" That's the worst part because, not only did Heather choose to be a vampire, but she also chose to do the stuff that she did to her parents, to her schoolmates and EVEN to her BEST FRIEND FROM CHILDHOOD! After ALL that, she then decides to have Charlotte pass on the message to Leonard that Heather apologizes for what she did to him instead of waiting to get to the timeline that he's at to tell him in person! Heather wasn't sorry when she admitted having a choice, but she was sorry 10 years after Leonard left!
I agree that Heather needs a "The Reason You Suck" speech, especially for treating Leonard literally like a dog when she goes out on the town in Vegas in the second, arc, but later she seems to be in denial of him being a thrall, actually asking him to do things instead of ordering him and treating him more like a human being than the others (although she doesn't defend him when Suki steals his comic and Zoe and Lesley try to force him to strip). It's an open question whether she was lying about given a choice to become a vampire and how much she had to do with turning Leonard into a thrall. She can be defended for her apology though. She and Leonard obviously had repaired their friendship at the beginning of the final arc, but if she hadn't apologized before he had disappeared she wouldn't have had a chance to do so in the intervening ten years. Even if she had, that was probably the one thing she wanted him to know. The only thing she could do in what was her present after that time was to have Charlotte deliver the message. Waiting to see him personally was a distant prospect was a distant prospect, and she couldn't be sure even a vampire would survive that long. We don't even know if she did.

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Re: Vampire Cheerleaders Talk

Post by tau neutrino » Thu May 21, 2015 1:42 pm

Concerning the art controversy, which has led to some heated words on the Facebook group and some unfair attacks on Michael Shelfer's style. Shiei's art for VC has the advantage of being goofy enough that you forget how ridiculous the title "Vampire Cheerleaders" is. That's difficult to pull off even for giants in the field like Jack Kirby, who made an aborted attempt with Satan's Six. (Now I have an image of Big Barda in a VC uniform.) Adam Arnold lampshaded the absurdity in VCMD! On the other hand, while Shiei had cute pinups for PMS, I'm not sure that style would have suited PMS's more graphic horror, such as the slaughtered farmhands in the first arc. The neck snapping in the Vegas arc was probably pushing it. Similarly, Michael Shelfer's more realistic style is better suited for action horror than VC or the "C"-verse. He's even said he prefers action to high school drama like going to the prom IIRC. As Adam and Michael pointed out, the VC concept had a limited shelf life since they were seniors, with the plan being to have PMS take over after the crossover and Lori become a horror hostess for the Frankenbitches storyline. If the proposed fourth book comes out, my ideal would be to have Shiei do "Vampire Cheerleaders Camp it Up!" and Michael Shelfer do "Fall of the PETM".

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Re: Vampire Cheerleaders Talk

Post by MrJustice4 » Thu May 28, 2015 9:42 am

tau neutrino wrote:Moved from the Q&A thread.
MrJustice4 wrote:Even though the story is over and Heather FINALLY apologized for what she did to Leonard(10 years after he left), I still find it hard to like Heather. Especially when she knew of his feelings for her and took advantage of them! Leonard warned Heather about the cheerleaders, she didn't listen and got attacked by them! The next day, she TOTALLY blows him off! Then, when Leonard tries to save her again, Heather back stabs her OWN friend by helping to make him into a thrall! She did feel bad about it at first, but then she got used to having him be a slave and treated him like dirt! Then, after Leonard was free from their spell by the P.M.S., he tried to save her, YET AGAIN, at prom! He thought Heather became a vampire and only did what she did because of Lorna/Lori! She then admits to Leonard that she had a choice all along! She then chooses to go back and get captured along with the others ONLY to find out later that it was a setup by Cressida Harrow to get all of them! Leonard, being the coolest guy ever AND also being a TRUE FRIEND that he is, he found OUT where they were held and LEAD the P.M.S. to save them! Only after 10 years since he left does she FINALLY apologize for the way she and the other girls have treated him! I honestly can for give Heather for ALL of the stuff she did. ALL OF IT! If she didn't say, and I quote, "I HAD A CHOICE!" That's the worst part because, not only did Heather choose to be a vampire, but she also chose to do the stuff that she did to her parents, to her schoolmates and EVEN to her BEST FRIEND FROM CHILDHOOD! After ALL that, she then decides to have Charlotte pass on the message to Leonard that Heather apologizes for what she did to him instead of waiting to get to the timeline that he's at to tell him in person! Heather wasn't sorry when she admitted having a choice, but she was sorry 10 years after Leonard left!
I agree that Heather needs a "The Reason You Suck" speech, especially for treating Leonard literally like a dog when she goes out on the town in Vegas in the second, arc, but later she seems to be in denial of him being a thrall, actually asking him to do things instead of ordering him and treating him more like a human being than the others (although she doesn't defend him when Suki steals his comic and Zoe and Lesley try to force him to strip). It's an open question whether she was lying about given a choice to become a vampire and how much she had to do with turning Leonard into a thrall. She can be defended for her apology though. She and Leonard obviously had repaired their friendship at the beginning of the final arc, but if she hadn't apologized before he had disappeared she wouldn't have had a chance to do so in the intervening ten years. Even if she had, that was probably the one thing she wanted him to know. The only thing she could do in what was her present after that time was to have Charlotte deliver the message. Waiting to see him personally was a distant prospect was a distant prospect, and she couldn't be sure even a vampire would survive that long. We don't even know if she did.
Yes, at first she hated how they were treating Leonard as a thrall at the beginning of Vol 2, but then she TOTALLY blew that aside when Lori/Lorna said that it was fun to treat him that way. It was like on the pilot episode of Family Guy when Peter said that he felt bad about drinking at the party after he promised Lois that he wouldn't, but then Quagmire said "Oh, don't feel bad about it" and Peter said "Hey, I never thought about it that way." In that scenario, Lori/Lorna was Quagmire and Heather was Peter. Sure, Heather was more kind about having Leonard do stuff for her, but that's because he was ALREADY doing stuff for her long before she even became a vampire because of his feelings for her that she knew of and took advantage of him like how Rarity does with Spike on MLP. Also, Google Vampire Cheerleaders TV Troops because they explained that Adam Arnold left out Heather having a choice so the readers could come up with their own theory and so, when revealed, we would see the vampires in a different light, but fans didn't like that at all! What I hated about that was that Leonard warned Heather, she didn't listen, she gets attacked and turn and then, the next day, she TOTALLY blows Leonard off! Heather didn't even apologize to Leonard, didn't tell him the truth that he already knew and didn't even thank him for being the only person to try and have her back. In fact, when she was turned, not only was she happy about it, but she IMEDIATELY wanted to start KILLING people! Talk about your "WTF" moment. I can also get you're reasoning about her apology, but, after having Charlotte pass on the message, she could still wait for the time he's at now, find him and tell him in person. When you're making things right with your friend, you make them right in person. That's just what I think is right. BTW, "a 'The Reason You Suck' speech?" I like that, it's funny! :))
Last edited by MrJustice4 on Sun May 31, 2015 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vampire Cheerleaders Talk

Post by Gotoh » Fri May 29, 2015 2:02 am

MrJustice4 wrote:I can also get you're reasoning about her apology, but, after having Charlotte pass on the message, she could still wait for the time he's at now, find him and tell him in person.
Leonard and co. were all off-world by the end of the comic, and Heather hasn't the first clue where, or how far into the future he is. So how is she supposed to find him? :-\

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Re: Vampire Cheerleaders Talk

Post by MrJustice4 » Sun May 31, 2015 5:48 am

Gotoh wrote:
MrJustice4 wrote:I can also get you're reasoning about her apology, but, after having Charlotte pass on the message, she could still wait for the time he's at now, find him and tell him in person.
Leonard and co. were all off-world by the end of the comic, and Heather hasn't the first clue where, or how far into the future he is. So how is she supposed to find him? :-\
We got to see EVERYONE here. Vampire Cheerleaders, Paranormal Mystery Squad, EVEN B Squad was there in the future. So, if everyone was there, why wasn't Heather? They all keep tabs on each other and know where the Thurston "Family" is. She should've been there to, right? So, where was Heather?

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Re: Vampire Cheerleaders Talk

Post by Hyper Magi » Sun May 31, 2015 7:57 am

I think the answer to that might be "#@&% Heather".
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Re: Vampire Cheerleaders Talk

Post by Gotoh » Sun May 31, 2015 11:39 am

MrJustice4 wrote:We got to see EVERYONE here. Vampire Cheerleaders, Paranormal Mystery Squad, EVEN B Squad was there in the future. So, if everyone was there, why wasn't Heather? They all keep tabs on each other and know where the Thurston "Family" is. She should've been there to, right? So, where was Heather?
That's everyone who took part in the "Space and Time??" adventure. Heather wasn't a part of that group 'cuz, the last we saw of her, she was still back on Earth, as an office manager at PETM (notice J.C. is absent from the reunion scene too - that's his son, Peter).

You're also assuming she kept in touch with the other vampires, when that may not be the case. For example: when was the last time Layla ever saw, or spoke with Steph? And that was before her abduction.

All Heather knows is. Leonard and co. are all off... somewhere, because they all just disappeared. Just like Steph. Even Char had no idea where they'd gone, and she wouldn't have known how to find them either, if she hadn't had help from the mothmen.

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Re: Vampire Cheerleaders Talk

Post by MrJustice4 » Sun May 31, 2015 10:03 pm

Hyper Magi wrote:I think the answer to that might be "#@&% Heather".
I agree to, but still.

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Re: Vampire Cheerleaders Talk

Post by tau neutrino » Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:56 am

Gotoh wrote:
MrJustice4 wrote:We got to see EVERYONE here. Vampire Cheerleaders, Paranormal Mystery Squad, EVEN B Squad was there in the future. So, if everyone was there, why wasn't Heather? They all keep tabs on each other and know where the Thurston "Family" is. She should've been there to, right? So, where was Heather?
That's everyone who took part in the "Space and Time??" adventure. Heather wasn't a part of that group 'cuz, the last we saw of her, she was still back on Earth, as an office manager at PETM (notice J.C. is absent from the reunion scene too - that's his son, Peter).

You're also assuming she kept in touch with the other vampires, when that may not be the case. For example: when was the last time Layla ever saw, or spoke with Steph? And that was before her abduction.

All Heather knows is. Leonard and co. are all off... somewhere, because they all just disappeared. Just like Steph. Even Char had no idea where they'd gone, and she wouldn't have known how to find them either, if she hadn't had help from the mothmen.
Chronologically, Heather's latest appearance is here, centuries before the reunion at Litaworld. Lesley and Zoe can't even agree whether to call their maker "Lori" or "Lorna", so they probably don't keep tabs on each other, and 3.5 years should go by in a flash for them. Heather also could have met them off panel, like Char delivering the message to Leonard. Another possibility is that Heather met final death in the intervening centuries (also possible for J.C.) or even turned back into a human and died of old age. The real world explanation is probably that the comic was coming to an end and they didn't have the time or space to do a reunion, not to mention the antipathy towards her as demonstrated by HyperMagi. Even Michael Shelfer didn't want to draw her. It would be interesting to see her as a representative of PETM demanding humane treatment for the reptillians. Something to remember, Heather's the only one to offer any apology to Leonard after all the abuse he's suffered at most people's hands.

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Re: Vampire Cheerleaders Talk

Post by Gotoh » Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:16 pm

tau neutrino wrote:Chronologically, Heather's latest appearance is here, centuries before the reunion at Litaworld. Lesley and Zoe can't even agree whether to call their maker "Lori" or "Lorna.
Your link doesn't work, but I know the one you're referring to. And, from what we saw, Lori and the others were still on Earth at that time. So Heather could've easily lost touch with them over the next few hundred years.
tau neutrino wrote:Heather also could have met them off panel, like Char delivering the message to Leonard. Another possibility is that Heather met final death in the intervening centuries (also possible for J.C.) or even turned back into a human and died of old age.
We definitely know that she didn't change back into a human.
tau neutrino wrote:not to mention the antipathy towards her as demonstrated by HyperMagi. Even Michael Shelfer didn't want to draw her.
Which is why he said they basically wrote her out of the comic, but we were talking about the in-universe reason for why Heather wasn't in the final reunion scene.
tau neutrino wrote:Heather's the only one to offer any apology to Leonard after all the abuse he's suffered at most people's hands.
Formally, yes. But Leonard said had no hard feelings towards any of them and said he kind of enjoyed it, since he got to shag 'em every now and then.

If you ask me, the ones Heather really need to make amends with are her parents.

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Re: Vampire Cheerleaders Talk

Post by tau neutrino » Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:36 am

MrJustice4 wrote:
tau neutrino wrote: I agree that Heather needs a "The Reason You Suck" speech, especially for treating Leonard literally like a dog when she goes out on the town in Vegas in the second, arc, but later she seems to be in denial of him being a thrall, actually asking him to do things instead of ordering him and treating him more like a human being than the others (although she doesn't defend him when Suki steals his comic and Zoe and Lesley try to force him to strip). It's an open question whether she was lying about given a choice to become a vampire and how much she had to do with turning Leonard into a thrall. She can be defended for her apology though. She and Leonard obviously had repaired their friendship at the beginning of the final arc, but if she hadn't apologized before he had disappeared she wouldn't have had a chance to do so in the intervening ten years. Even if she had, that was probably the one thing she wanted him to know. The only thing she could do in what was her present after that time was to have Charlotte deliver the message. Waiting to see him personally was a distant prospect was a distant prospect, and she couldn't be sure even a vampire would survive that long. We don't even know if she did.
Yes, at first she hated how they were treating Leonard as a thrall at the beginning of Vol 2, but then she TOTALLY blew that aside when Lori/Lorna said that it was fun to treat him that way.
She looked more embarrassed than anything.
MrJustice4 wrote: It was like on the pilot episode of Family Guy when Peter said that he felt bad about drinking at the party after he promised Lois that he wouldn't, but then Quagmire said "Oh, don't feel bad about it" and Peter said "Hey, I never thought about it that way." In that scenario, Lori/Lorna was Quagmire and Heather was Peter. Sure, Heather was more kind about having Leonard do stuff for her, but that's because he was ALREADY doing stuff for her long before she even became a vampire because of his feelings for her that she knew of and took advantage of him like how Rarity does with Spike on MLP.

We don't really see Leonard doing things for Heather pre-thralldom, just her telling him that if he's her friend he'll support her trying out for varsity instead of talking crazy about them being vampires.
MrJustice4 wrote:Also, Google Vampire Cheerleaders TV Troops because they explained that Adam Arnold left out Heather having a choice so the readers could come up with their own theory and so, when revealed, we would see the vampires in a different light, but fans didn't like that at all!
I know about the controversy over whether it was a retcon, but all Adam said was that there was a block of time unaccounted for. Heather could have been lying to let Lori off the hook or been glamoured.
MrJustice4 wrote: What I hated about that was that Leonard warned Heather, she didn't listen, she gets attacked and turn and then, the next day, she TOTALLY blows Leonard off! Heather didn't even apologize to Leonard, didn't tell him the truth that he already knew and didn't even thank him for being the only person to try and have her back. In fact, when she was turned, not only was she happy about it, but she IMEDIATELY wanted to start KILLING people! Talk about your "WTF" moment.
She starts treating Leonard normally later, and he crosses off "Ignoring me" from his list later, and she does thank him for agreeing to keep their secret. She's also distraught at Lori attacking Leonard, which indicates she can overcome her murderous instincts, even more in VCMD! Her main sin with respect to Leonard seems to be going along with her coven instead of standing up to them. That's bad (and fitting for a sex comedy), but not irredeemable, and the possibility of her regaining some of her humanity makes her an interesting character.
MrJustice4 wrote: BTW, "a 'The Reason You Suck' speech?" I like that, it's funny! :))
I can't take credit, someone else said it first. It's from TVTropes, along with Heel Realization. There's a lot of examples for Family Guy.

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