The Discussion Dojo

[Peppercat]

*peaks in, attracted by the thread's title*

There's a shao lin kung fu performance/demonstration/show going on here in Lima right now.
Actually, my best friend and her bf must already be there right now
I was gonna tag along... but I gots the cold

*bows and leaves*

[Bear]

And here we are trying to settle the Jackie Chan debate, and our own Ninja Kitty Minions does it for us. lol.

[Scaramouche]

I'd like to see you go up to a shaolin kung fu master and say that since Shaolin Kung-fu is the route form for many martial arts styles.

Shaolin today isn't what it was. It's little more than party tricks to impress dumb peasants these days. Here's a hint: if it involves cartwheels or balancing on your head, it's not a real martial art.

[harbino]

Living in England and being addicted to anime, manga and RPGs makes me crave Japanese culture... Living in England creates that problem because unlike the US and those places, there is no Japanese area of towns, no Chinatown or anything.

I want to go to Japan, but don't know the language... don't you think Japanese babes are cute?

BTW can anyone recommend any anime designed for 17yr old males? Don't say Naruto, Bleach because I don't like them. Don't say Love Hina, Elfen Lied, Fruits Basket, Azumanga Daioh and Chobits because I have seen them.

[Pneumonica]

Living in England and being addicted to anime, manga and RPGs makes me crave Japanese culture... Living in England creates that problem because unlike the US and those places, there is no Japanese area of towns, no Chinatown or anything.

I want to go to Japan, but don't know the language... don't you think Japanese babes are cute?

BTW can anyone recommend any anime designed for 17yr old males? Don't say Naruto, Bleach because I don't like them. Don't say Love Hina, Elfen Lied, Fruits Basket, Azumanga Daioh and Chobits because I have seen them.

Boogiepop Phantom is pure cool to me, but I don't know what age it'd be aimed at.

[Bear]

Manchester and London both have Chinatown areas... We really need Little Tokyo's though...

And Shaolin still is exactly what it always was. It takes alot of skill and discipline to be able to balence on your head and do cartwheels as you put it. Just because its been dressed up to show it off to the world doesn't mean that it can't be used as an effective combat form. Wushu is a prime example of that. A primarily performance art that can still be turned into an effective combat form if needed.

[midgetshrimp]

Living in England and being addicted to anime, manga and RPGs makes me crave Japanese culture... Living in England creates that problem because unlike the US and those places, there is no Japanese area of towns, no Chinatown or anything.

I want to go to Japan, but don't know the language... don't you think Japanese babes are cute?

BTW can anyone recommend any anime designed for 17yr old males? Don't say Naruto, Bleach because I don't like them. Don't say Love Hina, Elfen Lied, Fruits Basket, Azumanga Daioh and Chobits because I have seen them.

I'm not sure of the age group for them, but I really enjoyed the Ghost in the Shell, Full Metal Alchemist, Wolf's Rain, and Cowboy Bebop series, as well as Appleseed and Macross. I have a limited anime exposure, seeing as the other animes I've been able to see are Love Hina (a couple episodes), Escaflowne (all but the last episode), Spirited Away, and the first half of Dragoon.

[Scaramouche]

Manchester and London both have Chinatown areas... We really need Little Tokyo's though...

And Shaolin still is exactly what it always was. It takes alot of skill and discipline to be able to balence on your head and do cartwheels as you put it. Just because its been dressed up to show it off to the world doesn't mean that it can't be used as an effective combat form. Wushu is a prime example of that. A primarily performance art that can still be turned into an effective combat form if needed.

Shaolin originated from India. It began as aan actual martial art. Thus Buddhist monk guy from India was doing the "walking monk" thing, which is how Hinduism and Buddhism spread throughout much of Asia. He went into China, gave a demonstration to the emperor, and asked if he could set up a temple to teach people his mojo. The emperor agreed, gave him a spot called Shaolin, which meant "wooded hill" or something. Since then, the Shaolin guys were at times royal guards, outlaws, reclusive monks, and various other things. A big problem arose with the absolute destruction of the temple and the death of all its members. It was re-established afterward, but there's no way to know whether the martial art taught after it was re-established was the same as the original.

But what we do know, from simple observation, is that it's now mostly athleticism, gymnastics, and party tricks. They don't fight in wars. They don't serve as bodyguards. They don't even enter boxing matches. There's a reason for this. Flipping over on your head won't hurt anyone.

[Scaramouche]

BTW can anyone recommend any anime designed for 17yr old males? Don't say Naruto, Bleach because I don't like them. Don't say Love Hina, Elfen Lied, Fruits Basket, Azumanga Daioh and Chobits because I have seen them.

The Irresponsible Captain Tylor.

[midgetshrimp]

But what we do know, from simple observation, is that it's now mostly athleticism, gymnastics, and party tricks. They don't fight in wars. They don't serve as bodyguards. They don't even enter boxing matches. There's a reason for this. Flipping over on your head won't hurt anyone.

Considering that's not all they do, it's a pretty narrow view you have. Shaolin Kung Fu is still Kung Fu, there are many different forms with different purposes. Some are aggressive, while others are more passive, whereas others still are completely meditative. Once you get into weapon forms, though, I don't care what you say they do. The control over those destructive implements is definitely not useless in any way, shape, or form.

In general, any way you hone skills, strength, and control over your body makes it a much more dangerous weapon.

[Bear]

Your forgetting that they can shatter concrete breeze blocks with their heads... when it takes most people a sledge hammer to do that you've really got no clue what can hurt someone.

And as midget pointed out, they are regarded as some of the greatest weapons masters in the world when they start implimenting them into their styles.

[midgetshrimp]

Also, having to do with bodyguards and going to war and such... of course they don't. It's melee combat. War isn't so much about melee combat anymore. I can shoot you. Your hands and weapons do nothing. All martial arts are outdated in that respect. Modern warfare is not a hand to hand affair, barring extenuating circumstances, of course. It's rare when gun doesn't get the job done.

[Bear]

Or in Bush's case... carpet bombing with 'Daisy-Cutters'.

That and your forgetting that Shaolin are Buddhists, and Monk's at that... religious men who are dedicated to the principle of harming no living creature. Shaolin Kung Fu originated as a way for the monks after long pigrimages with little food and water to show ther devoutness, protecting themselves in their weakened states from bandits etc on the pilgrim routes they took.

In effect, all Martial Arts originated from the principle of protecting onself from harm in the most efficient and effective manner. Just because many styles arrose that involved weapons etc, their principle is still the same of defending oneself by taking down the enemy in the most effective manner.

[midgetshrimp]

Martial Arts is kind of a misnomer, really. None were actually developed for the primary function of killing another human being. Incapacitating, perhaps. But usually only in self defense. Even Ninjutsu is deeply steeped in defensive history.

[Scaramouche]

Also, having to do with bodyguards and going to war and such... of course they don't. It's melee combat. War isn't so much about melee combat anymore. I can shoot you. Your hands and weapons do nothing. All martial arts are outdated in that respect. Modern warfare is not a hand to hand affair, barring extenuating circumstances, of course. It's rare when gun doesn't get the job done.

Go to: http://mgray.hopto.org/ArmyPubs/Publications/index.html

Control+F, find B-GL-318-018/PT-001

Or just click here for the PDF: http://mgray.hopto.org/ArmyPubs/Publica ... FP-001.pdf

Unarmed combat is very much a part of modern military training. Although yes, it is rare that a modern warrior would be forced to drop his gun and punch someone.

Now, unarmed combat isn't all of martial arts. Any technique for fighting is a martial art, from boxing to archery, from shooting to mounted swordsmanship. They're all martial arts. The common misconception that either "All martial arts are Asian" or "All martial arts are unarmed combat techniques" is due to the influence of cinema. As was mentioned, martial arts often include weapon use.

However... as stated, many martial arts have devolved into mere demonstration sports, or performance arts. These guy may have been bodyguards and warriors in the past, but no longer. They are not allowed to be. Vastly more powerful forces would squish them into the dust if they tried. That's why they don't fight, and sit around in temples meditating and flipping cartwheels. Impressing peasants provides an income, and allows them to pursue what is obviously a physically difficult art.

Now I've seen video of the Shaolin temple guys doing their tricks. I've also seen such tricks done live, right in front of me. I'll explain a couple here.

One trick involves leaning into a spear braced against the throat. How is this done? Well, it's actually a very flexible, broad, and blunt, blade on the spear. The tip is pressed against the neck, then the spear haft is lowered, so that blade bends down against the throat and collar. When the performer leans into it, he's actually leaning against the flat side of the blade.

Another trick is breaking bricks with the forehead. How is this done? The bricks used are made of a very light, brittle mixture which breaks easily. It's like punching through polystyrene foam.

Yet another trick involves snapping an iron bar over the top of the performer's head. How does he do it? When the performer taps the iron bar against something to show that it's metal, you'll notice it results not in a nice pure ring, but in a short, dull clunk. That's a clue right there. The metal is poured into a mould and a line of sand is then poured in across the bar, so that as it hardens, it has a very serious weakness across the bar. It isn't sturdy at all. Basically it's two solid lumps of poor quality iron connected by a very weak, very brittle band of sand-filled metal. The next clue is how the bar is held and how it strikes. The bar is held so that when the bar strikes over the top of the head, the region with the weakness will make contact, and the region of metal beyond that part will not touch the head; it will pass over the other side of the head, and its momentum will snap the bar at that weak point.

What about ancient history and traditions? Well, most modern Asian martial arts are just that: modern. The vast majority were created in the past century, mostly after WW2. There are some few which date back earlier, such as the style of those Shaolin guys. And that, as already mentioned, has no verifiable link to the original art, given that the temple was destroyed and its residents killed.

Martial arts movies with wires are to blame. This discussion reminds me of the whacky ideas people have about katanas being magically super-powered and able to cut through bridges.