The Great Debate Thread - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK!

[Fen]

Since every now and then topics arise which require debate and talk, might I suggest an official thread for it? This way, instead of rudely interrupting talks with "offtopic" or "no flaming plz", the posts can be moved and continued here.

(idea started by many discussions on the ma3 threads and more recently

Two questions.

One, why do you hate America?

in the gamer's lounge)
I'm adding Don's announcement since i feel it belongs in the first post

Sooooo...

By popular demand, complain and whine, here it is again. The debate thread. Started by Fen as a place to discuss touchy topics, it was felt to quickly leave the normal relaxed mode of the forum (kind of expected...) and was thusly locked.

After discussion with Midge and Giz, we have decided to reopen this thread under a special set of rules. So read this carefully (and this is the reason why I'm making a new entry post, not just moving it back to GD from the Archives):

The Debate Thread is an almost completely* unmoderated thread. Anyone who posts in here must be aware that depending on what they write, they can be attacked, both in a reasonable as well as a hostile manner. No warnings or bannings will result from behavior in this thread. It is expected that anyone who perceives to cross lines gets shot down by the other forumites posting here, not us mods. We wash our hands of this thread. We do, of course, reserve the right to partake in debates from the perspective of being not just mods, but forumites too.

The flip side of the coin is that we will ignore any complaints (via PM or in-thread) concerning the behavior of other forumites toward you, dear poster in this thread. You have been warned, enter this thread at your own risk. If someone labels you a spineless squirrel-lover and you just can't stand that, it might be time to withdraw to greener pastures and remember you just need to push a power button to get rid of all the ugly insinuations of sweet, sweet squirrel intercourse.

Everything clear?? Okay, here's your burning pitchforks, start debating. Let's see where this goes.

The DAMNed

* If you post spam in here, you will still get kicked in the ass.

[Iceman]

Why not just take it to PMs?

[Fen]

I always thought moving a discussion to Pms is kind of...awkward. I rarely feel strong enough about things to take them to pms, yet enjoy having a good talk over things.
Also, this way more people can join in.

Also, this is a forum. It is where people should talk

(and seriously, is anyone surprised that the us is not a well-liked country?)

[Gil Hamilton]

I think this is a great idea. There is way too much of a notion that any argument or debate about anything is a bad thing on this forum, rather than a sign of healthy discourse.

[Lighthawk]

I'll second Gil there. I think this forum is mature and respectful enough for us to handle some serious discussions.

And if hating the US is the opening topic...what exactly makes the US more worthy of being hated than anywhere else? Its far from perfect here, but that applies to the rest of the world as well, and I think things are generally better here than a great deal of the rest of the planet.

[Fen]

Part of it is sheer stereotyping(see all the fast food jokes about america), but most of it is pretty well founded. Despite being a very young nation, it is more or less directly responsible for a lot of carnage, most of it supported by hypocritical or arrogant reasoning. The fact that it ends up being behind or responsible for many a countries' tragedies does not help their cause. Their choice of allies is also questionable, and the fact that the majority of the citizens(at least from what I gather) actually believe their cause is righteous makes it all the more sickening.
I mean seriously, the oil wars, the native americans, the entire wiping out of the americas during the colonizations is just one of the more obvious causes for hate.

Roosevelt's liking for Stalin also harms their image, at least in the former Eastern Bloc. Whilst doing propaganda about "freedom", "democracy", etc. they played an important part in leaving Eastern Europe a victim to communism, which has had a devastating effect on those countries. Oh sure, that was WW2, and since Truman decided to bomb Hiroshima for the sole purpose of testing his bombs we fell into the shadow...

But then we have more recent events, such as the Serbia bombings. We're talking sheer weapon testing in civilian cities. My country was *ahem* suddenly considered for Nato around that time, and I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact that we provided a nice route for their tanks.

As soon as something like this is caused by the US, it is quickly forgotten by all but those who were actual witnesses to the event. As soon as anything of any proportion happens to the US they launch a hate-crime against whatever poor ethnicity a particular attacker was part of.

Soo, i guess it's a combination of all these factors. For me, it's the hypocrisy of it all that seals the deal.

[TheDude]

Damn, Fen, how can you type so fast, you totally beat me...

Anyway, I'd say people don't dislike the USA for the conditions within their borders. The states are however perceived as a meddling force that uses flimsy contexts in order to recklessly advance their interests abroad.
The decreasing regard for human rights is worrysome, as well and has cost the USA a lot of credibility in recent years.

And (to contradict my first statement) there's the poverty, the obscene wealth, the lack of universal healthcare, the Tea Party (who look like total nutters to most of the world), the Christian fanatics, the obsession with guns, the barely functioning democracy.
So yes, that's enough to make me feel uneasy, at times.

I don't hate the US, though (I'm not too big on hate, anyway). Spent a great year in Connecticut (many years ago) and still have good friends over there who I love and respect. Quite a few of them are not too happy about the state of things, either...

[Fen]

Aye, I don't hate them either, but that may be because I'm too much of a pacifist to hate. I prefer the term "extremely reluctant"

And heh, fast typing is one of my main skills:P

[Lord Styphon]

Okay, Herr Doktor. There is no way to go through this without using a bunch of quotes.

the entire wiping out of the americas during the colonizations is just one of the more obvious causes for hate.

The United States did not colonize all of the Americas, and the colonization and wiping out of the Americas began centuries before the United States came into existence. Are we to be blamed and held responsible for what the British, Spanish, Portuguese, French and Dutch did in establishing their colonial empires in America?

Roosevelt's liking for Stalin also harms their image, at least in the former Eastern Bloc. Whilst doing propaganda about "freedom", "democracy", etc. they played an important part in leaving Eastern Europe a victim to communism, which has had a devastating effect on those countries.

You'll be pleased to know, then, that American anti-communists like Robert Taft were none-to-pleased with Roosevelt with selling out Eastern Europe to Stalin. At the same time, what else could Roosevelt, or any other President have done? Geography, if nothing else, meant that Eastern Europe was going to fall to the Red Army, not the Western Allies, leaving the Soviets in control. Not that the west would have spared much thought for the well-being of Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria, seeing how they were, you know, members of the Axis, allied with Germany and at war with the Allies. But still, what do you propose? That the United States should have waged another war to push the Soviets out of Eastern Europe? That was a non-starter for multiple reasons.

Oh sure, that was WW2, and since Truman decided to bomb Hiroshima for the sole purpose of testing his bombs we fell into the shadow...

The sole purpose of testing his bombs? Fuck you. First, the bomb dropped on Hiroshima didn't need testing; they knew it would work. Second, the purpose behind the bombs was to compel the Japanese government, and in particular the Imperial Japanese Army, to recognize that the war was lost and surrender. This would have brought the war to an end (I presume you think that would be a good thing) without the millions of deaths that invading Japan would have brought about. The bombs delivered the message, though there were still plenty in the Imperial Army who refused to accept it; the Emperor's broadcast announcing the surrender? Some officers tried to stage a coup, take the recording to keep the message from going out and fight to the bitter end.

The Japan that weeaboos worldwide love exists because the United States, with not inconsiderable help from the Bombs, destroyed the one that came before it. That, the millions of Japanese soldiers and civilians who didn't die trying to repel an American invasion, and the at least half a million Americans who didn't die trying to invade (including my grandfather) means the Bombs were by far a net good. Not that you care about a few thousand more dead Americans.

But then we have more recent events, such as the Serbia bombings. We're talking sheer weapon testing in civilian cities.

Again, the weapons didn't need testing. But besides that, again, you are holding America solely responsible for actions it wasn't solely responsible for. Bombing Serbia was a NATO operation, with participation by, among others, Britain, France, Germany, Italy and the Netherlands; they're absolved of any responsibility so you can blame it all on America. Also absolved are Slobodan Milosevic, who, probably more than anyone else, was responsible for the breakup of Yugoslavia and the Yugoslav Wars, of which the Kosovo War was part and which prompted the NATO intervention we're talking about now. And, to be fair, you're also absolving the Kosovar rebels.

Also, when dealing with the Yugoslav Wars as a whole, the U.S. didn't become involved until the NATO intervention in Bosnia. That intervention didn't happen until the European Community tried to intervene but found itself utterly unable to prevent genocide in its own backyard.

[TheDude]

The sole purpose of testing his bombs? Fuck you.

Ah, the joys of a witty repartee...

[Lighthawk]

Part of it is sheer stereotyping(see all the fast food jokes about america), but most of it is pretty well founded. Despite being a very young nation, it is more or less directly responsible for a lot of carnage, most of it supported by hypocritical or arrogant reasoning.

Won't deny it, but how does this make us any different than any other nation other than total scope and scale? Every nation has engaged in its share of bad things, and its politicians and people always do their best to put a happy spin on things, because no one wants to look like the bad guy. Yeah America is generally involved in a lot of stuff, some it not so nice, but that comes with being one of the biggest players in the game. I'm not excusing the bad, but its hardly fair to hate/blame/whatever America for it, as opposed to the nature of human governments in general. As a species, we have serious issues when it comes to governing ourselves and with dealing with other people's governing bodies.

The fact that it ends up being behind or responsible for many a countries' tragedies does not help their cause.

Could you provide examples? And what exactly is our cause?

Their choice of allies is also questionable,

Such as whom?

and the fact that the majority of the citizens(at least from what I gather) actually believe their cause is righteous makes it all the more sickening.

Our cause...I wasn't aware we had a cause, singular. I can think of a great many things Americans strive for, and at various degrees of seriousness.

I mean seriously, the oil wars, the native americans, the entire wiping out of the americas during the colonizations is just one of the more obvious causes for hate.

So how do you feel about the British for their past colonialism? The Germans for trying to take over Europe and kill all the "inferior" races? What are your feelings for North Korea at the moment? I'm not trying to justify what terrible things we have done or are doing, but hating America is just being narrow sighted to the big picture. Lots of terrible things happen all over the world, all the time. If you must respond with hate/dislike/disapproval/etc, be sure you're giving it to everyone who deserves it. And keep in mind that ever time a nation does something awful, not everyone of that nation, whether civilian, politician, or military, has something to do with said awful thing.

Roosevelt's liking for Stalin also harms their image, at least in the former Eastern Bloc. Whilst doing propaganda about "freedom", "democracy", etc. they played an important part in leaving Eastern Europe a victim to communism, which has had a devastating effect on those countries. Oh sure, that was WW2, and since Truman decided to bomb Hiroshima for the sole purpose of testing his bombs we fell into the shadow...

I think Styphon answered this well enough for me, though I will respectfully remove the "fuck you".

But then we have more recent events, such as the Serbia bombings. We're talking sheer weapon testing in civilian cities. My country was *ahem* suddenly considered for Nato around that time, and I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact that we provided a nice route for their tanks.

Again, Styphon says what I'm thinking here.

As soon as something like this is caused by the US, it is quickly forgotten by all but those who were actual witnesses to the event.

As opposed to all the things other nations do that everyone quickly forgets? I'm not sure what point you are going for here, that America gets away with too much perhaps?

As soon as anything of any proportion happens to the US they launch a hate-crime against whatever poor ethnicity a particular attacker was part of.

This is a very nice piece of nasty sounding hyperbole, and pretty well impossible to respond to thanks to its complete lack of actual substance. Perhaps if you provide an example we could discuss this point.

Soo, i guess it's a combination of all these factors. For me, it's the hypocrisy of it all that seals the deal.

Hypocrisy is one of the keystones of running any nation. Ours is just more obvious because the US is so prominently noticeable. Take a close look at any nation, and you'll find plenty of hypocrisy. You can't fairly blame America alone for that, because it's not a problem unique to us by a long shot.

[TellusEidolon]

Anyone seen this about bill S.978?

[Lord Styphon]

Such as whom?

Being allied with Greece is pretty questionable.

[TheDude]

Lighthawk, there is a discrepancy between claiming the moral high ground for oneself and supporting dictatorships like Saudi-Arabia or invading Iraq under a false pretext. Then there is Guantanamo Bay and Abu Graib and yes, that's worse than the behaviour of other western civilizations.

(Unfortunatey I'm too tired right now, to go into more detail - possibly a few more people will cast wall of text till tomorrow...)

[Don Alexander]

So, just let me get this clear.

What started as a peculiar injoke in the Gamer's Lounge (which was obviously overestimating the knowledge of certain games the readers of said thread should have...) has turned into a thread which is pretty much supposed to touch on all those topics on which debate is discouraged in the forum rules, because it just leads to flame wars.

And what do we get? A flame war. We get certain people spouting misinformed hyperbole (yes, Fen, I'm looking at YOU), we get moderators directly insulting forumites (yes, Lord Styphon, I'm looking at YOU TOO). So much for the ability to be mature and hold a serious, informed discussion.

I will not have it, and I'm very sure midgetshrimp, Giz and Dave will agree.

Locked and buried.

The DAMNed

In a slightly less serious note, Lord Styphon, in this case you were completely correct in quoting. Not only were you not quoting the post directly above your own, you were addressing a long post point-by-point. Of course quoting is allowed in such a case.

EDIT: Just to be clear, when I started typing my post, the post I quoted was the last one in the thread. The two between were made while I was typing. - Lord Styphon