23-07-09 prince charming

[badwolf]

Great strip, somehow I'm not surprised that Zii knows the stripper in question or frequents the club. Is there anything sexual she's not enthusiastic about? Voyeurism especially seems to be her thing.

I know Dillon's coming in for a lot of crap over this, but his kicking Zii out the door then slamming it and turning to Gary for help was just insanely funny....not least because of Zii's expression. Of course somebody's gonna pay for it (probably poor Gary), that's a given, but I still laughed.

Sorry, Zii...

[Gil Hamilton]

That's because romance is often seen as greater or of equal importance to friendship. I first assumed your emphasis on women especially needing rides might have a selfish basis instead of the other alternatives. Why do you think women especially need friends to drive them around, Gil?

Really? Cause in my experience, women are vastly more likely to call for a ride than guys and also the people calling for help in this situation are women. Nature of the beast, if you are getting a Last Call "Hey... could you come pick me up at the Keg *HURK!* Phonecall, it's more likely to be one of your girlfriends than guy buddies. Maybe your experience is different.

Basically, there isn't a quid pro quo. Your friends need to safely get home, so you do it. Possibly pissed at them, possibly muttering to yourself all the way there and also when you are trying to convince her that she really SHOULD drink half a liter of OJ before she goes to bed... but you do it. Better to be interrupted than have something bad potentially happen to your friend. Sex is easy, this is more pressing.

Yeah might be, in an uncommon scenario they could be, and having them be a bit much to handle might be a little aggravating. Most people successfully use designated drivers and cab rides without doing anything ridiculous though. Why are you so worried?

Didi didn't have a DD, now did she? She was calling for help because she didn't have those things. While that isn't a great display of common sense, it's, ironically, is not uncommon a thing to happen. That's why she needs a ride and the fact that there are two of them means Zii is in for a handful. She might be able to handle it, but Dillon and Gary should have come along to help make sure DiDi and Sandra were safe.

Mmmhmm, how much of that is him being callous and how much is you reading into it though? He's sending her off to help. That hardly seems to fit him acting "callously". Ordering her yes, pushing her out the door yes, callous no.

Callous to DiDi and Sandra who are in need, callous to Gary because Dillon really doesn't seem to give a crap about Gary's feelings in this situation, or callous to Zii for going "whatever, get out of here". Take your pick.

Gary may not be actually interested, but he's been clearly tempted and yeah they've kinda been having a special intimate moment together if you hadn't noticed.

Now you're barking. There is nothing special or intimate about what's happening here. Dillon is treating Gary like a conquest and doesn't give a crap that he's straight. Further, you'll have to show me where Gary has been tempted by the notion of having sex with Dillon. Insofar, we've seen Gary tempted by the notion of becoming a better kisser himself and Zii and tempted to ridiculousness by a FEMALE porn star. So far, what Gary has been tempted by, in his chuckleheaded sort of way, is women. Dillon is trying to manipulate him into doing something he doesn't want to do with an elaborate ruse. That's not "romance" and that's not "intimate". The only thing that has made it "special" is the amount of effort Dillon put into recreating the clothing in the Amber-Amber poster.

[Bear]

Gil, you starting to treat on troll territory again....

We get it already, you don't like Dill. But ffs... Lighten up, its only a comic! And one that uses situation stretched to absurd length for comic value.

Stop being such an ass and taking things completely out of context. Its fiction for Lolz sake.

[Don Alexander]

Aw, come on, he does have some points, and especially, he is not being directly aggressive toward Ceomyr. I find reading both sides of the discussion intersting, and actually mostly agree with Gil.

But yeah, you are right. Lighten up, guys. ;)

[Ceomyr]

But yeah, you are right. Lighten up, guys. ;)

I hear that, let me know if I'm crossing the line and I'll edit my post(s) for you Don.

Really? Cause in my experience, women are vastly more likely to call for a ride than guys and also the people calling for help in this situation are women. Nature of the beast, if you are getting a Last Call "Hey... could you come pick me up at the Keg *HURK!* Phonecall, it's more likely to be one of your girlfriends than guy buddies. Maybe your experience is different.

Aah well alright, your experience is not everyone's experience. You should know that your experience is not the universally accurate measurement for how all people are and will ever be, Gil. That clears things up though.

Basically, there isn't a quid pro quo. Your friends need to safely get home, so you do it.

Sure, but keep in mind there's a difference between "they want an easy and free trip back home" and "they need you to give it to them". Wants aren't needs. They don't need a ride, I've walked through this city many times in the night alone. They live in Montreal, its not that dangerous for two women to walk home together, especially since one of them is huge and it seems to be in the day (plus they walked right there). They don't need a free ride, they have money either in their pocket or available when they get back.

And of course there's some quid pro quo, there almost always is some element of quid pro quo in most human relationships. That means it's expected for them to be happy that you came to pick them up and then thank you for dropping them off. If they suddenly turn into dicks and twats right after, you'll probably be even more disappointed because they should have a little appreciation for what you did. Plus, there's the expectation that if you're in the same situation they'd try to do the same for you.

Better to be interrupted than have something bad potentially happen to your friend. Sex is easy, this is more pressing.

That's basically a truism, but in this case your intuitive answer is wrong. Why? First off, the chance of something harmful actually happening and Dillon alone being able to stop it by tagging along is incredibly small, basically nil. Second of all, this is pivotal moment for Dillon to romance Gary which he may never ever get again.

Yeah might be, in an uncommon scenario they could be, and having them be a bit much to handle might be a little aggravating. Most people successfully use designated drivers and cab rides without doing anything ridiculous though. Why are you so worried?

Didi didn't have a DD, now did she? She was calling for help because she didn't have those things.

Pay attention, I said that most people can use a designated driver or cab safely, not that she had one, until she called for Zii anyway. Do you think Didi CAN'T get a cab because she has no money anywhere now? What about Sandra, do both of them have no money what so ever now in this argument of yours? Or do you fancy that cabs are too dangerous to allow a friend to take?

And you haven't told me why you're so worried that Zii or a cab driver taking them home would be dangerous, and so dangerous that Dillon is a huge dick for not dropping everything and running to save them from ... a ride with one driver. Do we have any reason to think they're going to try to make the ride dangerous?

That's why she needs a ride and the fact that there are two of them means Zii is in for a handful. She might be able to handle it, but Dillon and Gary should have come along to help make sure DiDi and Sandra were safe.

So how are you in all your wisdom guaranteeing that two drunk friends (or rather a friend and her friend) who want a ride are bound to be a handful? A dangerous handful actually. Also by what logic do you think Zii must have back up to drive a friend and someone else, to the point that it would be so damn negligent and dickish of Dillon to say no to tagging along?

Dillon kind of has the important big chance in his opinion, and he has evidence to make a good estimation of that, it's a little much to just drop so he can tag along, when he is actually not needed there at all.

Callous to DiDi and Sandra who are in need,

He sent help for them, he was very adamant about sending that help too, that's not callous.

callous to Gary because Dillon really doesn't seem to give a crap about Gary's feelings in this situation,

Nope sorry, it's clear Dillon cares very much about Gary's feelings and making Gary want him. However he is putting himself in front of a relationship between Gary and Didi, and that's selfish, that's thinking of his own feelings, but it's clearly not callous.

or callous to Zii for going "whatever, get out of here". Take your pick.

Except he didn't say that so don't quote that. You're mischaracterizing what he said, he commanded her urgently, with exclamation marks to go and help them while "kicking her out" (which most likely involved pushing and telling her to go rather than sending her flying with a kick in ass). This is also not callous behaviour, Gil.

None of these behaviours are callous. Dillon has been characterized as the opposite of callous through out the comic. Dickish? Sure maybe. Independent of the obligations of driving friends which was my whole point when we started disagreeing, I think Dillon is trying to seduce Gary and misusing Gary's trust to do so undercover of helping him win someone else. That would be a dick move for Dillon, but, seeing Dillon as a dick for not tagging along to pick a couple people up? Come on, he's not going to make everyone magically safe on this "dangerous" car ride, not tagging along isn't going to make him a dick; especially since there's something quite important for him to see to, making out with Gary. Yes making out with Gary is important to Dillon, and a real friend would understand that.

Gary may not be actually interested, but he's been clearly tempted and yeah they've kinda been having a special intimate moment together if you hadn't noticed.

Now you're barking. There is nothing special or intimate about what's happening here.

Special: surpassing what is common or usual.

In this case, finally getting a chance to turn Gary bisexual and make out with him is a special opportunity because it is not common or usual.

Intimate: Marked by close acquaintance, association, or familiarity.

Dillon was getting physically intimate with Gary when they were kissing. They were very close together and sharing physical association, becoming familiar with each others' lips.

Gil if anyone is barking, it's the English language, barking... awesome!

Dillon is treating Gary like a conquest and doesn't give a crap that he's straight.

Oh yeah straight, straight, straight, so now why is this "straight guy" getting mighty physically intimate with another guy? Looks like Dillon is giving him a chance to try being bi and Gary walked right into it, out of naivete, but Dillon doesn't know if Gary habours secret gay fantasies. Being gay does not bestow magical mind reading powers (I know OMG). Gil, there's a lot of closeted gay guys who will claim they're straight till their blue in the face, but for some reason they keep getting into gay sex again and again. Dillon likely suspects such of Gary, his over the top claim of turning straight guys gay with a kiss aside (because it's hyperbole).

Treating Gary like a "conquest," are you serious? He hasn't done anything like that, you're reminding me of that (perhaps mythical) fringe minority who supposedly think every relationship with a guy is him conquering and raping the woman.

Further, you'll have to show me where Gary has been tempted by the notion of having sex with Dillon.

Correction, to prove my point I need to show he's attracted to Dillon and tempted to kiss him. Well, take a look, Gary is tempted but he has reservations as well.

Insofar, we've seen Gary tempted by the notion of becoming a better kisser himself and Zii and tempted to ridiculousness by a FEMALE porn star.

Being a better kisser was why he was there, the temptation and blushing was because he was being turned on by Dillon, who looked like a female porn star.

So far, what Gary has been tempted by, in his chuckleheaded sort of way, is women.

And by one gay male who makes a fairly convincing woman if our own eyes and Yuki are to judge.

Dillon is trying to manipulate him into doing something he doesn't want to do with an elaborate ruse.

This is about as elaborate and subtle as a warhammer Gil.

That's not "romance"

Romance:Ardent emotional attachment or involvement between people, especially relating to a love affair.

Dillon was romancing Gary by making out with Dillon in drag, to try and win his love, affection, and emotional attachment.

and that's not "intimate".

Intimate:... Wait I already did this one. No more dictionary lessons today, mister.

The only thing that has made it "special" is the amount of effort Dillon put into recreating the clothing in the Amber-Amber poster.

It certainly is an impressive amount of effort, I'll give you that. Zii and Gary were both impressed.

That's it, I've seen to all your points, and this discussion looks fairly finished from my vantage point. I appreciate your style of writing, but I don't think you have any strong points to be made here. Would you prefer to shake hands, respectfully, and drop this?

[Borris]

Isn't is frightening (or maybe just telling) that Zii would be such a regulat customer at the Chez Parée strip club that one of the strippers recognizes her just by her voice on a cellphone-to-cellphone conversation. And a three-line exchange is apparently enough for Zii to recognize said stripper and even remember her stage name.

As for latinos in Montreal, we have a fair share of Spanish, Peruvians, Mexicans, Salvadorians, etc, so it's hard to tell. And of course, a strip dancer is likely not even native from the town in which she's performing.

[Bear]

I ain't complaining about Ceomyr, he's actually having a well thought out and constructive debate will proper points that he's backed up with physical evidence from the comics.

Just seems the every time Dill is in a strip, out comes Gil with his bashing stick calling Dill everything under the sun, yet, every time we've seen Zii act like a worse manipulator he's said nothing. Sandra getting DiDi drunk in the first place and onto stage to strip... he's said nothing... Gil's got some pretty poor double standards in that theres been worse acts by other characters, yet he's only ever attacked Dillion. He didn't even say a word about Matt cheating on him...

Just seems to me Gil has something against the only 100% gay character in the comic and as head-mod, that doesn't sit right with me.

[Don Alexander]

This... is the point I leave this discussion.

Interestingly, it's actually Gary who, I think, got the worst forum-bashing ever, for his Yuki boob grab...

[Giz]

Gil, Ceomyr, probably best to end this here. You both make valid points and all, but I think it's taking it a bit too far.

Bear, Gil was talking about Dill's actions, not his sexuality, so let's not confuse the situation any further.

And FYI, Dillon kicking Zii out the door like that was done for the funny. I call it the "Mr. Lodge throws Archie out kick." Archie must have some tight buns by now.

[oldcountry]

?? so, why is it these slice-of-life comics always end up being about lesbians?

actually, I had been thinking Ma3 looked quite a lot like 'Archie' in general style and character design - especially Gary. Zii looks a lot like Veronica in some ways, and on a different tack, DiDi reminds me awfully of Sally Forth - this one, anyway http://www.toonopedia.com/sallyf-1.htm

There are a few new details that have come in over the years - but some are not so new. Archie had the little devil and angel at times, but no-one called them 'chibi' in those days.

I've heard the term 'chica' for a sassy girl, that's nothing new either. I don't rcall it in 'Archie', but I wouldn't mind betting that if you really had nothing better to do, you might find it in 'Josie and the Pussycats', 'Scooby Doo' or somewhere like that...

Dillon is no more 'predatory' than, say, Jughead, who could be quite selfish at times, and so what? IT'S A COMIC, PEOPLE.....

speaking as a Brit, the term 'barking' usually means 'senseless' or 'bonkers', as in 'barking mad'. There's a cockney variant 'two stops past Dagenham' which is a reference to the outer reaches of the District Line. I've never heard it in the sense of 'awesome'.

I've worked in both over the years and I would definitely agree with the posters who say Canada is more European than the USA. Especially for someone like me, my French is fluent ( if heavily accented and shot through with Arabic and Senegambian words ) so I can talk to pretty much anyone, whereas I don;t speak Spanish beyond the usual 'dos cervezas per favor'

[Giz]

?? so, why is it these slice-of-life comics always end up being about lesbians?

Technically, Zii is bi. DiDi thinks she's bi but hasn't tested the waters yet, and we still don't know everything about Yuki. ;)

Old Archie comics from the 60s, early 70s are big influences on Dave and I. For instance, DiDi's design was inspired by Samantha from that Wilkin Boy: http://www.misterkitty.org/extras/stupi ... bingo1.jpg

[oldcountry]

well, you are writing this strip so you are ahead of me, but DiDi's 'bi-ness' seems to be more in the nature of a running gag... she is an extravagantly 'sexy' ( in a cartoony sort of way ) character who simply doesn't realise the effect she has on people ( I read the strip where she describes a series of failed sexual encounters as a joke about premature ejaculation..maybe it's a Brit thing.. ) . That was my point about Sally Forth, or Jane of the Daily Mirror, Daisy Mae Yokum, or a whole array of similar innocent-at-large characters

so, Zii has told her she may be lesbian and she has taken it in without having any idea of what she is actually hearing. Tell the truth, I would regard her actually turning out to be bi as a cop-out, a waste of a good gag.



the point I was making is that a high proportion of 'slice-of-life' type webcomics end up being about lesbianism, and I strongly suspect that this is actually because there is a taboo, in these PC days, an a single straight male acting in the sort of casually promiscuous way which Zii does. Dillon and what's-his-name can be explicitly sexual, or extravagantly camp, as the plot requires; Zii can be voraciously sexual, and that's ok; but if Gary behaved towards DiDi as Zii does, there would be a problem. The 60s / 70s-style womanizer is somehow unacceptable, or has turned into the preening and absurd Johnny Bravo for comic effect.

look at straight-couple webcomics like, say, Sabrina Online or 9 Chickweed Lane and the whole dynamic is different. 9CL is a classic example of the 'will-they-won't-they' plot and to be honest, it seems to have lost its way now that Edda is in a relationship with Amos and Juliet is married. Sabrina Online is an interesting example, because there is an extravagantly bi-sexual character ( Zig Zag ) who fancies Sabrina but has been told in no uncertain terms NO and more-or-less accepts it. SOL also revolves around at least two stable couples ( Thomas / Amy and Sabrina / RC ) with various other couples ( Sabrina's parents; the chinchilla with the huge wolf husband ) in the background and the running gag about RC's ageing-hippy parents as well.

Even the highly original Girl Genius has this as a back-thread, with the Agatha / Gil sub-plot arc and the grotesque slapstick about the Jagermonsters and Von Pinn.

Girls With Slingshots has another variation, with the buxom Jamie who is an unashamed straight flirt but actually still a virgin, becoming involved in an emotional relationship with another woman ( to general surprise ) , but finds it physically unsatisfying.


it's also interesting to note that SOL makes considerable use of 'fourth-wall' jokes of various types. I suspect that this wouldn't work on Ma3, and I'm going ot hazard a guess that it's because the single-issue characters prevent it. Sabrina combines anthropomorphic design with low-key plot threads, which straggle on without ever being resolved, Jane's World gets away with it by having complex, low-key plot arcs which are basically emotionally driven.




so, I'll be interested to see where DiDi goes next, but I have to say that I'd be disappointed to see Zii 'turn her on'.. lazy writing at best

[Chup@Cabra]

Ah, yes

"What's the secret to Great Comedy?

...

...

...

...

... Timing!"

Funny that he only comes to that realization this late.

Sure, in real life what Dillon is doing to poor Gary would be unacceptable, but remember that you can't apply "real world physics" to "Three's Company"

[Ceomyr]

Yeah, Gisele, you're right. Best to let it go and have some peace. I'm actually abashed that you read our disagreements and felt the need to intervene, haha, sorry.

Well, Gil you make a hell of an argument. From your silence I think you've already buried the hatchet and moved on, and I have to. I'm not upset, and I hope you aren't either.

PS. The Mr. Lodge throws Archie out kick, hehe, Archie's poor tender buns. ;) I should have recognized the handiwork of Archie's influence right away.