24-07-18 SDB-Minew says

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24-07-18 SDB-Minew says

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Re: 24-07-18 SDB-Minew says

Post by OllieOrOlly »

Kind of went on a circle, though at least Ruby is *allowing* Amber to talk to her about her issues. Although, instead of circle, perhaps it is more like a 9 or 6 - in that while Ruby did go a distance only to return from whence she came, from returning to the start, she will actually make progress through a different route.

I enjoy the body language between the sisters - Ruby is her usual stiff, standoffish self, yet softening due to using Minew as an intermediary; Amber is her normal aloof persona for the most part, yet a sense of trepidation is hinted at, as she knows her sister doesn't respond well to Amber's usual bluntness.

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Re: 24-07-18 SDB-Minew says

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Minew is ancient and wise. Worship Minew. Bring Minew milk and tuna.

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Re: 24-07-18 SDB-Minew says

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So Amber has finally realised that when somebody says repeatedly that they don't like you, if you want to get on with them, you have to put some effort into working round that. Better late than never. And we have confirmation that they had a half-decent sisterly relationship in childhood, before it all went wrong -- so sometime, if she wants to restore that relationship properly, Amber might just have to think about what went wrong.

The contrast with Angel and Ramona remains interesting, and I assume is deliberately set up that way. However different those two turned out to be from each other, and however much of an idiot Angel can be in every other way, Angel seems to have preserved a sense of familial loyalty through their adolescent years. That may mean overdoing the protectiveness sometimes, but at least they're still friends.

But the immediate issue is still Andy, I guess. Amber is of course the sort to think that a straight guy who ignores sexual advances from an attractive woman must have something wrong with him. Which, actually, is a bit too simple-minded in real life terms, as Ruby would I'm sure once have pointed out... But in the Ma3 universe, and especially in this case, it has the small virtue of being right. We readers have been given stronger signs that Andy is just oblivious (as in, dumb as a rock), but the plot might side-slip into giving him a Freudian excuse for being nervous or unclear about sexuality, and Ruby can't really just ask him flat out if he wants sex or not. She may have to resort to that strange and terrible option of actually, you know, talking to him. The only obvious alternative is some kind of wacky plan to find out more about him from other people, and I'm not sure that the comic has time to introduce such people and run through the ensuing complications, if it's cutting back to Ma3 in August.

Ruby facial expressions are always good, as we all know, but that duck-face thing she's pulling in panel 4 does rather bug me, I'm afraid.
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Re: 24-07-18 SDB-Minew says

Post by worldshaking00 »

I enjoyed this strip, even if it took a while to get to this point in the sisters' lives. I really hope that they can mend their relationship, even if just a little bit. Amber has some very solid insights that would be quite useful for Ruby if Ruby could just learn to trust her. Baby steps, since Ruby has a lot to work through. But I can appreciate Amber taking steps to be Ruby's experienced (in a LOT of ways) older sister.
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Re: 24-07-18 SDB-Minew says

Post by brasca »

Finally! I had hoped this would’ve happened before Ruby stormed off, but she’s had time to cool off and maybe Dillon clued her in on why they don’t have a good familial relationship.

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Re: 24-07-18 SDB-Minew says

Post by Spidrift »

worldshaking00 wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:05 pm
I enjoyed this strip, even if it took a while to get to this point in the sisters' lives. I really hope that they can mend their relationship, even if just a little bit.
One small detail of interest in this strip is the one-line picture of their very early relationship. I'm not surprised that they apparently got on okay when they were both very young; that fits with everything else. But it sounds like Ruby's introversion goes way back, if even her own sister had to communicate with her via her dolls.

And yes, this shows Amber trying to repair something that used to work, which fits how she mostly looks sad when Ruby cuts loose at her. She still doesn't seem to get that, from Ruby's point of view, it was Amber that broke it, though; she apparently stopped being such a close sister at exactly the time when Ruby needed her most.
worldshaking00 wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:05 pm
Amber has some very solid insights that would be quite useful for Ruby if Ruby could just learn to trust her. Baby steps, since Ruby has a lot to work through. But I can appreciate Amber taking steps to be Ruby's experienced (in a LOT of ways) older sister.
Actually, Amber isn't very experienced in conventional relationships herself. Her life has been a bit weird by conventional standards. I'm putting her good advice here down to a lucky (though perfectly reasonable) guess, reinforced by the fact that, in her frame of reference, of course there must be something wrong with a straight guy who rejects an offer of sex from an attractive woman.
brasca wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:46 pm
Finally! I had hoped this would’ve happened before Ruby stormed off, but she’s had time to cool off and maybe Dillon clued her in on why they don’t have a good familial relationship.
I'm not sure that she understands that much more yet -- and Dillon isn't all that perceptive himself. He might have picked up something at the concert, when Ruby remembered being locked out of Amber's room, but Ruby has never let on much about her friendlessness -- and he's not, so far as we know, had many clues about her resentment at having to lie to her parents. (Amber should really have spotted that by now...)
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Re: 24-07-18 SDB-Minew says

Post by worldshaking00 »

If Amber and Dillon could agree to it, introducing Gary to Ruby - just as a friend who has had difficulties with relationships - might be a nice step. There is a poetic romanticism of Dillon letting Gary go completely and Amber + Gary's relationship (using the word with a broad stroke), one that I think would help truly marry both strips together. Should they develop stronger feelings for each other, well, not sure if there is time enough for that considering the comic's impending end (and all the other loose ends to boot).

"Pervert(ed) devil witch of a sister" or not, I think that Amber would approve of 'giving the gift of the SGR' to her little sister, especially since Amber wants Ruby to get laid and Amber had little problem inviting so many of the porn actresses she knew to Gary's doorstep. I'm not suggesting Amber go to Gary and beg Gary for a pity-SGR for her sister. Just as simple introduction and let things progress as they will. Who knows; perhaps Andy seeing Ruby with another guy might make him jealous, triggering some sort of reaction from the dolt.
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Re: 24-07-18 SDB-Minew says

Post by Spidrift »

Oh gods no. Fuck that idea.

To begin with, Gary is a whiny little dork who has semi-logically mutated into a fairly reasonable human being, and whose personal story is approaching its conclusion, and who has an obnoxious fanbase who treat him as the most important thing in the Ma3 universe. Bringing him in here would deform and distort this story, and give unwarranted comfort to his deplorable cultus.

Secondly, Gary has recently shown actual discomfort at the idea of being used as a walking, talking vibrator, and the desire for a more meaningful relationship -- and he actually has both an on-going semi-meaningful relationship (with Peggy) and the possible prospect of an interesting concluding passion (with Zii). Throwing Ruby at him would do him no favours at all.

And third, Ruby is a nervous introvert virgin who has come to realise that she might like sex, but who still needs her partner to be someone she knows and trusts. Admittedly her relationship with Andy has been annoyingly thinly sketched, but she's clearly put some time and emotional investment into that. She needs to try and sort that out, if only because otherwise she'll feel like a failure and a reject; at the very least, the story needs some kind of firm explanation of what the hell's up with Andy, for the sake of a satisfactory resolution. Until that's done, throwing other male characters at Ruby would just be confusing and messy.

For that matter, for all his new-found virtues, Gary still isn't that much of a genius with people, and would probably say a string of stupid things to Ruby. She doesn't need a string of guaranteed orgasms (I rather suspect that once she gets into bed with someone she likes, those will come easily enough); she needs help working through her emotional issues.

Plus, she thinks of Gary as Dillon's lost love. Getting close to him would feel like stealing him from Dillon, to her.
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Re: 24-07-18 SDB-Minew says

Post by KittyHat »

As usual, Amber is the adult in the room. Well, of course Peggy is too whenever she is around, but that's probably why an Amber/Peggy interaction would be rather boring: neither of them is going to behave in a monumentally stupid fashion that the other then plays off of. They are each proverbial "straight men" ... despite being neither straight nor men ...

Anyway, here's hoping Amber can finally break through that concrete skull of Ruby's to whatever gray matter may be buried underneath it.

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Re: 24-07-18 SDB-Minew says

Post by Opus the Poet »

Yu know the quickest and easiest way to find out why Andy doesn't respond to Ruby's overtures would be the direct route, asking him. But as part of the MA3verse that ain't never gonna happen :-w
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Re: 24-07-18 SDB-Minew says

Post by corwinargentus »

I think Amber has a very clear understanding of Ruby’s view of where her problems come from, and cares for her enough to communicate with her (a) the way she did when they were young and on better terms), and (b) is willing to allow Ruby to see Amber as the bad guy and cause of Ruby’s troubles, though it is plain Amber is just living her life and Ruby’s personality and introversion are not Amber’s fault. Amber wants to and is trying to help, and is doing so without defending herself to Ruby. I’m not coming down on Ruby either, lots of things could have contributed to her current issues. I’m glad to see Amber trying to help her sister, and Ruby at least listening and giving a tentative nod to Amber’s ideas.

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Re: 24-07-18 SDB-Minew says

Post by corwinargentus »

Spidrift wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:18 pm
Oh gods no. Fuck that idea.

To begin with, Gary is a whiny little dork who has semi-logically mutated into a fairly reasonable human being, and whose personal story is approaching its conclusion, and who has an obnoxious fanbase who treat him as the most important thing in the Ma3 universe. Bringing him in here would deform and distort this story, and give unwarranted comfort to his deplorable cultus.
Whoa. This is a side of you I’ve not seen before Spidrift. I didn’t know you felt so strongly this way about Gary and Gary fans. I will admit I only started frequenting the forums about 6 months ago, and that my schedule has not allowed me to be consistent in reading each day. I agree with you about it being a poor move to insert Gary here as a possible hook up (or more) for Ruby.

I also agree with you that the Peggy/Gary or Zii/Gary possibilities need the remaining time in the strip to either pan out or not. I think I would rather see Gary with Peggy, though the wistful look in Zii’s eyes as she looked at him before walking back to try to solidify things with blondie made me think she has some deeper feelings percolating that could work out very nicely. That’s what’s fun about a good story - finding out what happens.

I guess Gary has been over the years (I have read the whole comic) shy, geeky, nerdy, and has allowed himself to be a doormat quite regularly. I don’t know if I would call him whiny. In my experience it does not seem like he complains very vocally about his mistreatment at the hands of others or the predicaments he finds himself in. As far as his “obnoxious fanbase” and “deplorable cultus,” I think it’s understandable why maybe at least a third of regular readers might take a deep interest in his character, seeing he is one of the three main protagonists.

I dunno, maybe I just haven’t been reading closely enough, but I have not been getting this obnoxious read on very many of the posters. Got an example or examples I can peruse to see what you mean? Thanks!
Last edited by corwinargentus on Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 24-07-18 SDB-Minew says

Post by brasca »

Spidrift wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:18 pm
Oh gods no. Fuck that idea.

To begin with, Gary is a whiny little dork who has semi-logically mutated into a fairly reasonable human being, and whose personal story is approaching its conclusion, and who has an obnoxious fanbase who treat him as the most important thing in the Ma3 universe. Bringing him in here would deform and distort this story, and give unwarranted comfort to his deplorable cultus.

Secondly, Gary has recently shown actual discomfort at the idea of being used as a walking, talking vibrator, and the desire for a more meaningful relationship -- and he actually has both an on-going semi-meaningful relationship (with Peggy) and the possible prospect of an interesting concluding passion (with Zii). Throwing Ruby at him would do him no favours at all.

And third, Ruby is a nervous introvert virgin who has come to realise that she might like sex, but who still needs her partner to be someone she knows and trusts. Admittedly her relationship with Andy has been annoyingly thinly sketched, but she's clearly put some time and emotional investment into that. She needs to try and sort that out, if only because otherwise she'll feel like a failure and a reject; at the very least, the story needs some kind of firm explanation of what the hell's up with Andy, for the sake of a satisfactory resolution. Until that's done, throwing other male characters at Ruby would just be confusing and messy.

For that matter, for all his new-found virtues, Gary still isn't that much of a genius with people, and would probably say a string of stupid things to Ruby. She doesn't need a string of guaranteed orgasms (I rather suspect that once she gets into bed with someone she likes, those will come easily enough); she needs help working through her emotional issues.

Plus, she thinks of Gary as Dillon's lost love. Getting close to him would feel like stealing him from Dillon, to her.
You make a lot of good points, but I think Ruby would have more chemistry with Gary than Andy albeit marginally.

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Re: 24-07-18 SDB-Minew says

Post by Spidrift »

Opus the Poet wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:53 pm
Yu know the quickest and easiest way to find out why Andy doesn't respond to Ruby's overtures would be the direct route, asking him. But as part of the MA3verse that ain't never gonna happen :-w
I think it may be more that the comic is taking multiple strips, in which Ruby consults several people, to come to the difficult conclusion that, yes, asking Andy what the problem is might work. People do talk sometimes in the Ma3 universe, but it tends to be a desperation measure when all else fails.

And that looks like kind of the point here. So long as Ruby thought that the problem was with her, she had to wrack her brains, ask other people what she was doing wrong, and drive herself to a nervous breakdown, trying to resolve things. But now that Amber has planted the idea in her head that when all impossibilities have been excluded, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth -- that no, if she's attractive and has the right bits for him, Andy's apparent rejection is down to Andy -- she can follow through on that. Which probably has to mean just talking to the silly sod.
corwinargentus wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:20 pm
I think Amber has a very clear understanding of Ruby’s view of where her problems come from, and cares for her enough to communicate with her (a) the way she did when they were young and on better terms), and (b) is willing to allow Ruby to see Amber as the bad guy and cause of Ruby’s troubles, though it is plain Amber is just living her life and Ruby’s personality and introversion are not Amber’s fault. Amber wants to and is trying to help, and is doing so without defending herself to Ruby. I’m not coming down on Ruby either, lots of things could have contributed to her current issues. I’m glad to see Amber trying to help her sister, and Ruby at least listening and giving a tentative nod to Amber’s ideas.
Amber has all the clues she needs to understand the problem, but I don't think that she's quite there yet. If she'd put it together, she wouldn't look so sad and puzzled when Ruby explodes in her face, and she could be moving towards a solution.

After all, it seems pretty clear that a large part of the problem is the lying to their parents. Ruby does tend to be truthful, she mentioned that early on, and she brought it up again recently. But actually, even if Ruby moved to Patagonia, Amber would have to deal with that issue soon enough anyway; she can't keep her secret from them forever, especially if her straight acting career takes off. So if Amber just said to Ruby "I'm sorry that you had to keep my secret for so long, but it won't be a problem after next Saturday", she'd relieve a measurable amount of stress. Likewise, it also looks like Ruby felt betrayed because Amber pushed her out of her life just when Ruby needed some friendship and sisterly support in her pre-teen years; it's too late to fix that, but an apology wouldn't cost Amber anything, and yet she's never even mentioned that period in their lives.

So yes, Amber has made a good start here, invoking the time when they were friends and Ruby doubtless looked up to her -- and yes, she's admirably willing to put up with Ruby's temper (though what else can she do?). But there's some work still needed.
corwinargentus wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:38 pm
I didn’t know you felt so strongly this way about Gary and Gary fans. I will admit I only started frequenting the forums about 6 months ago, and that my schedule has not allowed me to be consistent in reading each day. I agree with you about it being a poor move to insert Gary here as a possible hook up (or more) for Ruby.

I guess Gary has been over the years (I have read the whole comic) shy, geeky, nerdy, and has allowed himself to be a doormat quite regularly. I don’t know if I would call him whiny. In my experience it does not seem like he complains very vocally about his mistreatment at the hands of others or the predicaments he finds himself in.
To be honest, if we were just talking about Gary on his own, I wouldn't get half so irritated. I do think that he's underwritten and a bit characterless, and he's certainly a bit too much of a geek wish-fulfillment fantasy (despite being a classic geek with extra-high geek credibility, he's slim, strikingly good-looking when he remembers to stand up straight, and possesses a magical power that makes women addicted to him if the go to bed with him), but as a comedy device, he should be mostly harmless. If he was a real person, I'd probably get on with him okay; I know far worse cases of geekiness.

The whininess is strictly intermittent; I think that it's mostly that the writers want to say that he has problems, but they sometimes forget to make them convincing. When he first appeared, he claimed that his problems with women were down to some kind of oppressive religious background, but he's never shown any real signs of that sort of thing (and his mother seems to be quite nice); he looks to me like he's trying to blame other people for his own social incompetence. More recently, when he saw Peggy with her ex, well, sure, he was entitled to get sad about the situation -- but he actually told himself that he was the most miserable man in Montreal. I kind of wanted to yell "Get a grip, man!" at him.
corwinargentus wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:38 pm
As far as his “obnoxious fanbase” and “deplorable cultus,” I think it’s understandable why maybe at least a third of regular readers might take a deep interest in his character, seeing he is one of the three main protagonists.

I dunno, maybe I just haven’t been reading closely enough, but I have not been getting this obnoxious read on very many of the posters. Got an example or examples I can peruse to see what you mean? Thanks!
There seems to be a recurrent problem where, if Gary appears in a scene, people start talking about him at the expense of the rest of the characters present (see for example his recent one-panel background joke appearance at the comics shop), and if he doesn't appear for a few scenes running, his fans start complaining. We don't see the worst of it here, but Giz periodically mentions that she's bombarded with complaints whenever things wander away from Gary; there was a recent example on her Facebook page when the current SDB-in-Ma3 sequence started, starting on the 13th of this month.
brasca wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:43 pm
You make a lot of good points, but I think Ruby would have more chemistry with Gary than Andy albeit marginally.
Does that say anything about Gary, or is it just a sign of how thinly Andy has been written?

Actually, I wonder if this is going to be an excuse for Giz to drop a large dollop of emergency characterisation on Andy shortly.
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