23-06-18 Gotta little ketchup

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Fluffy
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Re: 23-06-18 Gotta little ketchup

Post by Fluffy » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:03 pm

Didi...demisexual? Did the definition change since the last I looked it up?

(from AVENwiki): Demisexual - A demisexual is a person who does not experience sexual attraction unless they form a emotional connection. It's more commonly seen in, but by no means confined, to romantic relationships. The term demisexual comes from the orientation being "halfway between" sexual and asexual.

Does that honestly sound like Didi to anyone? Or am I the only one not seeing a match between character and definition. The only way it would is if you switch 'sexual attraction' with 'orgasm'.

Given how quickly she'd drop a lover for a new one if it meant even the slightest possibility of getting an orgasm from them (even in the most recent strips; given how quickly she jumped at the chance at having an open relationship with Lynn because her 'twu wuv' Zii wasn't in the mood for sexy times) doesn't even sound remotely like a demisexual to me.
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Re: 23-06-18 Gotta little ketchup

Post by TortugaTwo » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:33 pm

I'm a little confused. Gary never said the date was her ex, just that will Peggy not see her again...... She just told him in the second to last panel it was her ex. So I feel this doesn't land. Unless he mentioned it in earlier panels but I don't remember that.

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Re: 23-06-18 Gotta little ketchup

Post by TCampbell » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:49 pm

Fluffy wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:03 pm
Didi...demisexual? Did the definition change since the last I looked it up?

(from AVENwiki): Demisexual - A demisexual is a person who does not experience sexual attraction unless they form a emotional connection. It's more commonly seen in, but by no means confined, to romantic relationships. The term demisexual comes from the orientation being "halfway between" sexual and asexual.

Does that honestly sound like Didi to anyone? Or am I the only one not seeing a match between character and definition. The only way it would is if you switch 'sexual attraction' with 'orgasm'.
Yeah, that's what you've got to do.

You could argue that I stretched the term too far there and should've tried to invent something like "demiorgasmic," but I felt like it was better to use a term already in use that came fairly close. There is, to my knowledge, no extant term that fits her better, and these definitions tend to drift in any case.

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Re: 23-06-18 Gotta little ketchup

Post by Spidrift » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:53 pm

And the moral of this strip is that, if you’re going to be a good guy and own up to a little mildly reprehensible behaviour, you have to commit to it. There’s no point in starting and then changing the subject; that just makes things worse.
OllieOrOlly wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:52 am
I'm curious as to how *wild* Peggy's college days were because I doubt they were exactly "wild" in the same vein as the spy shoot-out scene...
I assume about the same as what most people describe as a “wild” phase; a bit too much drink, a lot of late-night parties, probably some drugs (strictly at the soft end of the scale, because Peggy is still Peggy), maybe even some petty crime for kicks, and doubtless a fair amount of sex, some of it unconventional, drunken, or poorly timed. No, none of it on the same level as a shoot-out, but still indicative that the person leading you into it has a weak sense of personal respondibility — which, if allowed to ripen, can lead tto something worse. Like homicide.
samtheman wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:09 am
Welp, it's looking like Gary's FWB relationship with Peggy isn't going to last much longer.
Oh, it doesn’t have to go that bad — because if Gary comes clean, well, Peggy is generally sane. Accidentally eavesdropping on a friend is impolite, but doesn’t have to be a relationship-breaker. And this just looks like a standard tangled-web-of-fibs joke.
And I wish we would get the wrap-up arc for Dillon's comic already but that can keeps getting kicked further down the road.
If this strip is ends the arc, as does seem possible, well, I’m living in the wild and foolish hope that we might cut across there next. But no, you’re right. I’m sure that Giz really does want to wrap that up, but the gap between wanting to do something and actually doing it can be abyssal.
worldshaking00 wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:51 am
As far as the police, no idea. There's plenty of spy drama where a 'cleaner' comes by to remove evidence/bodies... or the assassins got their own...or Bianca's side claimed the body... or Peggy just booked the scene. We don't know, and probably never will. The gunfight scene sounded like a joke - a punchline - to explain off being too excited. While someone in power knows she was there, I doubt they will need Peggy there to fill in any blanks. Besides, a police interrogation usually doesn't fit inside a rom-com.
Yeah, agreed. I mean, TCampbell’s superior fanfic speculation isn’t too implausible, if you want an imaginary chain of events that can explain things, but honestly it feels like giving the writers too much credit. The gunfight scene was a wacky exercise in hurtling out of genre, and doesn’t have to make sense. I mean, it’s not like everything else in Ma3 makes perfect sense under close examination.
TCampbell wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:48 pm
The narrative that the relationship between them is "loveless" baffles me. The mere fact that DiDi seems to be demisexual (which would probably have been an issue with Lynn) would seem to contradict that. I realize we probably didn't show enough of their non-sexual bonding after the Overlord arc to set this up, but I have to wonder what evidence, if any, would sway opinion toward the relationship being genuine at this point.
Well, to start with, you probably need to show Zii actually expressing love for DiDi. She’s expressed shiploads of sexual desire and admiration for DiDi’s sexual attractiveness, and occasionally a little casual friendship, but very little love that I can recall. When someone has repeatedly been shown thinking “bloody hell I want to fuck X six ways to Friday” and very rarely if ever thinking “gosh X is a nice person”, readers are likely to jump to the wild and crazy conclusion that their relationship to X is based on lust rather than love.

And secondly, you need to deal with the problem that we’ve seen Zii developing a more genuine-looking relationship — with Gary. When a few nice words from him can blow the top off her desire-ometer, and she’s been shown casting longing looks back at him while wandering off with DiDi only a strip ago, that looks like a “genuine” relationship, and the DiDi thing seems to be flagged as a mistake. Especially when DiDi has been shown as willing to run off and fuck someone else with a minimal excuse.
To me, the MA3 cast has its good points and bad like most people, but there aren't any I consider hate-worthy.

Except Nathan and Yvan.
Am I the only reader to find Takeru far more disgusting than either of those two?
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Re: 23-06-18 Gotta little ketchup

Post by Fluffy » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:47 pm

@Spidrift - no; Takeru is an atrocious father; given what he exposed Yuki to as a child and how badly that affected her.
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TCampbell
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Re: 23-06-18 Gotta little ketchup

Post by TCampbell » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:00 pm

TCampbell wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:48 pm
To me, the MA3 cast has its good points and bad like most people, but there aren't any I consider hate-worthy.

Except Nathan and Yvan.
Spidrift wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:53 pm
Am I the only reader to find Takeru far more disgusting than either of those two?
I can see the argument. It kind of depends on how much you assume he knew about what his professional fetishism was doing to his family before things reached a crisis point. You might say "well, how could he not," but when a thing is your job, it starts feeling normal to you very quickly. We didn't end up showing a lot of him on panel (that idea that he and DiDi would start dating never went anywhere) so you're left to fill in some blanks there. It seems to me like Yuki's forgiveness of him is coming from a healthy place, so I'd probably say he's all right, morally speaking.

Though you may have meant "disgusting" in terms of the off-puttingness of his imagination, in which case I can't really disagree.
Spidrift wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:53 pm
And I wish we would get the wrap-up arc for Dillon's comic already but that can keeps getting kicked further down the road.
If this strip is ends the arc, as does seem possible, well, I’m living in the wild and foolish hope that we might cut across there next.
(whistles)
Spidrift wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:53 pm
Well, to start with, you probably need to show Zii actually expressing love for DiDi.
I mean...

Image

and more importantly...

Image

I won't ENTIRELY fail to consider this feedback as we try to stick the landing, here. But I'm also not going to be surprised if some readers refuse to be persuaded at this point, no matter what.

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Re: 23-06-18 Gotta little ketchup

Post by dewelar » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:59 pm

I read this thread a few hours ago, and I'm still shaking my head. TCampbell's most recent comment upped the ante, and now I feel I need to respond.

I can certainly buy Zii THINKING she's in love with Didi. After all, many of us mistake other feelings for love in ways both ridiculous and sublime. As for ACTUALLY being in love with her...well, at this point, I will have to believe that either (a) TCampbell just dropped some misinformation on us or (b) there was a level of storytelling failure here that I wouldn't have believed this team was capable of achieving.

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Re: 23-06-18 Gotta little ketchup

Post by worldshaking00 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:24 pm

Even reading the strips @TCampbell referenced, I am still not convinced that their relationship is strong. I will concede that Zii loves Didi. I would have hoped for more genuine caring moments and longing looks, rather than a plethora of lustful ones. But fine - love. Deep friendship with a healthy side of sex. Relationships have been built on less.

Didi on the other hand, is too shallow and self-centered in her pursuit for orgasms. If Zii is acting like a pitcher full of water pouring her love into Didi-the-planter, the pot plant-Didi is in is too small (or cracked, some might argue). I don't doubt that Didi considers Zii close... perhaps even in her own way, she loves Zii... but I'm not sure she fully grasps the definition of love. The idea of an open relationship is just the excuse Didi needs to have her cake and eat it too. Admittedly, she did consider talking to Zii first. Comedic miscommunication made the rest a cluster-fudge.

I completely agree that Didi is not a true monster (ala Nathan and Yvan). Her callousness is mainly due to ignorance. But after many many repeats, ignorance can't be excused and cuteness - even Didi-level - has its limits. Didi has to learn that she is not the center of the sex-universe... that she has to consider her partner completely even at her own expense... and that she needs help with her orgasmic situation. Didi's unkindnesses are akin to a little child calling a stranger fat or ugly - it might be true, but it is no less hurtful. She needs to develop a filter from her brain to her mouth/body. She doesn't have to lose her childlike wonder or sense of enthusiasm. Just, get a healthy dose of temperance.

As far as Takeru being the most deplorable: no. Was he unwise for leaving his hentai out for his daughter to possibly get a hold of? Absolutely. Is there something weird about naming the 'starlet/victim' of his tentacle-filled story the same name as his daughter? I agree, it is weird. I am not a student of Japanese names, but "Yuki" might be a common enough name akin to "Mary" or "Anne". Or maybe the iconography of the Japanese alphabet fit better using the symbols for 'Yuki' as opposed to some other name. Or maybe his editor had some say in the naming process. Either way, I feel Takeru is pretty low on the deploromter. It's not like Takeru used Yuki as a model... ok... went a little dark there. Apologies.
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Re: 23-06-18 Gotta little ketchup

Post by Spidrift » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:29 pm

TCampbell wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:00 pm
TCampbell wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:48 pm
To me, the MA3 cast has its good points and bad like most people, but there aren't any I consider hate-worthy.

Except Nathan and Yvan.
Spidrift wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:53 pm
Am I the only reader to find Takeru far more disgusting than either of those two?
I can see the argument. It kind of depends on how much you assume he knew about what his professional fetishism was doing to his family before things reached a crisis point. You might say "well, how could he not," but when a thing is your job, it starts feeling normal to you very quickly. We didn't end up showing a lot of him on panel (that idea that he and DiDi would start dating never went anywhere) so you're left to fill in some blanks there.
Okay, to start with, I found myself reading that storyline as a light comedy metaphor for parental child abuse. Which is doubtless both wrong and gibberish, but is also one of those things that, once thought, can't be un-thought. And the fact that a child was on the receiving end of his creepiness really, really doesn't help. Nathan and Yvan are both utter creeps who I wouldn't ever jump to defend, but the fact is, both of them basically target (more or less) consenting adults. That makes Takerru worse in my book.

(I also can't help noting that Nathan for one has never committed any offence that hasn't been committed by other members of the cast. He just commits all of them, repeatedly.)
TCampbell wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:00 pm
It seems to me like Yuki's forgiveness of him is coming from a healthy place, so I'd probably say he's all right, morally speaking.
See, that was something else that was left off-panel -- but to me, it looked awfully like he'd manipulated Yuki into repressing something, rather than that she'd moved to actual forgiveness on her own part. There was a deeply creepy gaslighting vibe there, for me. And Takeru's repeated demands that Yuki breed another generation of children for him, complete with comments about his own daughter's sex life, didn't help.
TCampbell wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:00 pm
Though you may have meant "disgusting" in terms of the off-puttingness of his imagination, in which case I can't really disagree.
Well, I'd try to avoid kink-shaming.

For anything except incest, folk dancing, and asking to be pelted with bread, obviously.
TCampbell wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:00 pm
Spidrift wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:53 pm
Well, to start with, you probably need to show Zii actually expressing love for DiDi.
I mean...

Image
Not seeing it, sorry. They're in a relationship, and Zii has become aware that it has flaws that need patching, and is making an admirable enough attempt to discuss things in a mature fashion. But that's good sense, not love.
TCampbell wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:00 pm
and more importantly...

Image
Okay, Zii uses the L-word there, granted. But she uses it in a rather desperate tone, to describe a relationship which she feels obliged to try and not bollix up, the way she's bollixed up every previous relationship. It's not a context which gives the word much credibility.
dewelar wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:59 pm
I can certainly buy Zii THINKING she's in love with Didi. After all, many of us mistake other feelings for love in ways both ridiculous and sublime. As for ACTUALLY being in love with her...well, at this point, I will have to believe that either (a) TCampbell just dropped some misinformation on us or (b) there was a level of storytelling failure here that I wouldn't have believed this team was capable of achieving.
Word.
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Re: 23-06-18 Gotta little ketchup

Post by JoybuzzerX » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:41 pm

Fluffy wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:03 pm
Didi...demisexual? Did the definition change since the last I looked it up?

(from AVENwiki): Demisexual - A demisexual is a person who does not experience sexual attraction unless they form a emotional connection. It's more commonly seen in, but by no means confined, to romantic relationships. The term demisexual comes from the orientation being "halfway between" sexual and asexual.

Does that honestly sound like Didi to anyone? Or am I the only one not seeing a match between character and definition. The only way it would is if you switch 'sexual attraction' with 'orgasm'.

Given how quickly she'd drop a lover for a new one if it meant even the slightest possibility of getting an orgasm from them (even in the most recent strips; given how quickly she jumped at the chance at having an open relationship with Lynn because her 'twu wuv' Zii wasn't in the mood for sexy times) doesn't even sound remotely like a demisexual to me.
You're not wrong. She is not Demisexual. She's been hot and bothered by the looks of people. She just hasn't been able to orgasm with someone she doesn't feel a connection to. Though, even then, it doesn't seem to be an instant thing. Didn't Zii have to work at it too?

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Re: 23-06-18 Gotta little ketchup

Post by Fluffy » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:33 pm

As did Kiley (Zii just took less than half the time it took for Kiley to accomplish the task).
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Re: 23-06-18 Gotta little ketchup

Post by EvilSnack » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:50 pm

I'd like to know how Peggy was able to linger long enough at the scene of a shooting to provide first aid to one of the victims and then not spend heaven-only-knows how long in the police station explaining exactly WTF she saw. Not even here in Texas are we that blase about people getting gunned down.

Gary's easy answer: "The restaurant you were eating at is on my way home from work."

I could be wrong, but I think what's driving Zii and Didi's thinking is that they both have ideas about what the kind of relationships they supposed to want and supposed to have, and those ideas are not well-grounded in reality. Didi thinks that she is supposed to be living happily ever after with someone who can pluck the magic twanger; it's not so much that she's dissatisfied, but believes that she's supposed to be dissatisfied.

Zii is having a similar problem: She's bought into the notion that she's supposed to be wild, and definitely is not supposed to want anyone as boring as Gary. That her genuine preferences are quite different is an idea she's fighting.

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Re: 23-06-18 Gotta little ketchup

Post by Fluffy » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:59 pm

Spidrift wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:29 pm
Okay, Zii uses the L-word there, granted. But she uses it in a rather desperate tone, to describe a relationship which she feels obliged to try and not bollix up, the way she's bollixed up every previous relationship. It's not a context which gives the word much credibility.
And even if Zii meant the word with her heart of hearts - given Didi's behavior - it comes off as incredibly one sided.

Yes, Didi said she loved Zii when Zii regretfully declined having sex with her and mentioned how she's stuck with a single lover at a time after she discovered orgasms - but how is it actually love on Didi's part when she's immediately smitten by someone (Lynn) who promises her a night of exciting sex and jumps at the chance at sleeping with Lynn the moment she assumes Zii agreed to having a sexually open relationship? And this is - what? four days after no orgasms?

I get Didi doesn't want to stop having orgasms after having been denied them for so long - but that is not how you act if you truly love someone (after a few months of no sex - sure; but four days?!)

I can believe Zii loves Didi; not so much the other way around, though.
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Re: 23-06-18 Gotta little ketchup

Post by Gil Hamilton » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:08 am

TCampbell wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:43 pm
You know, it's funny. I remember doing a Penny and Aggie story years ago where the teenage characters cooperated immediately and fully with the police because one of their classmates had been kidnapped, and many readers felt that doing so was foolish and would compromise their future. I realize trusting police is a dicier proposition in many areas of America than it is in Montreal, but I still wouldn't have felt very good about most of those characters saying "Eh, I din't see nuffin'" when a life was in danger, even a life belonging to someone who was herself horrible.
OK? She is a witness in a shooting, one involving her giving emergency medical assistance to one of the people involved and is in a relationship with the person who shot the person she gave aid to. The police aren’t going to give her a choice in cooperating with their investigation, even if somehow she wasn’t inclined to immediately run screaming to the police. You know, what with the whole having someone murdered in front of her thing.
But I don't feel like Peggy has the same kind of duty, and I think she'd be able to get out of there in the window of time between finishing stanching the blood and the arrival of an ambulance, especially since instead of calling 911, she can call someone specific at the hospital who owes her a favor (probably Aishani). If she did go to the police, since this took place at Bianca's residence, most of the questions she'd be asked would be about Bianca ("What do you know about her, where is she now?"). And while Peggy may be closing the door on any further dates with her old fling, I think she's got enough lingering feeling for her to want to protect her that much.
I’m having a little trouble unpacking this rambling paragraph, but what the heck are you talking about in any part of this?

-Are you saying Peggy left someone who was actively dying of a gunshot wound to the abdomen before EMS arrived? There isn’t “OK, he’d good for a while, I’m just going to mosey on out of here” in this situation.

-Exactly what does she tell the person at the hospital? “Hi, Aishani, I’ve got a guy here currently dying of a gunshot wound to the stomach and I really don’t want you to ask any questions about this whatsoever.” I don’t think anyone owes Peggy that much that someone would touch that without reporting it to the police.

-Hospital staff doesn’t send out ambulances. Dispatch sends out ambulances. Hospitals don’t run their own ambulances, generally. How it works is dispatch receives a report of a medical emergency and they get a nearby EMS to go to it, who then take the patient to the closest hospital equipped to deal with the medical emergency. The first thing dispatch asks is “What is the nature of your medical emergency?” Because they need the EMTs to know what the heck they are walking into so they are prepared to render appropriate care and where they are taking the person. There is a 0% chance that dispatch would not also send the police to a report of injury from a gunshot.

-Being a witness to a murder takes a while. The police aren’t going to just cut Peggy loose after asking questions about Bianca. She’s in for a long night.

-What kind of “lingering feelings” trump “all of a sudden dudes started shooting at us and I saw you shoot one of them”?
Remember, too, that panic was a factor in her decision-making: "I'm scared someone else will attack any second." Saving a life trumps everything for her, but once that life was saved, her own personal safety was second. And she felt safer on her own than in a public place where Bianca's enemies might have an operative already.
Panic? What panic? Peggy is acting completely normal and non-chalant about the fact that she was in a shooting and witnessed a shocking act of violence. She’s not acting like dudes are going to come after her, she’s more into what Gary is doing right now, despite being covered in a man’s blood. I would imagine if she was actually concerned about her safety, ya know, a place full of law enforcement officers might be a great place to be.

Look, I know this is heading toward the old “Look, just because Peggy came home covered in blood after witnessing a brutal crime doesn’t mean anything. No one will notice, it will have no lasting consequences, and indeed Peggy has already forgotten about it. Never speak of it again, because it will never be referred to at all.” Bit. But come on, now.

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Re: 23-06-18 Gotta little ketchup

Post by worldshaking00 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:16 am

Here's a thought: what if Zii and Didi actually have a discussion about how Zii thought she was going to lose Didi to mystery open relationship person? Then the two of them could open up and tear up, saying how much they really love the other and how they want nothing to stop their relationship... even low libido Zii. Of course that leaves the Zii/Gary longing look at just that.
"Be excellent to each other." - Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure
"Like my old grand daddy used to say, 'The less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect.'" - Chester Rush, Four Rooms
Chivalry isn't dead, it just followed wherever being lady-like went.

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