Spidrift wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:03 pm
I may have become rather cynical about DiDi's actions and motivations over time, to be sure. But the writers have never let me down; her nice moments have never been more than brief and shallow.
As I recall, she was the only cook in the house for a long time, not that it was ever that prominent except that it was just another thing she was pretty good at. Pretty sure that wasn't shallow, but never mind.
Spidrift wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:03 pm
I may have been a little too terse sometimes. What I should always say is that she
is consistently written as selfish, heartless, or whatever.
Not sure I agree anymore with that, but I understand it better now, thanks. Like I said, forum communication lacks any of the benefits in-person communication affords us, so we can't take anything for granted. The lack of context is the root of all miscommunication.
Spidrift wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:03 pm
As I said, I'd regard hating her as a waste of energy -- but I keep trying to read this comic clearly, and that means that I keep seeing DiDi behaving very badly. I mean, hating the Joker would be a waste of energy, but there's no doubt that he's usually written as a monster.
And no, before you jump to conclusions, I'm not saying that DiDi is (written as being) as bad as the Joker. I mean, she doesn't go round killing people -- and even in the terms of a sex comedy, very little of what she does is intentional; mostly, she's just amazingly unthinking. As worldshaking00 said,
"She is dumb, or at least portrayed as a bimbo; can things really be her fault if she can't mastermind an evil thought?" To which, though, I personally say "Yes they really can".
Point of clarification: My hatred for the Joker and Harley is as much grounded in seeing them as overhyped, overexposed, 1-dimensional villains with a dumb gimmick as it is in the monstrous deeds they do. What I was getting at is that most of the people I've talked to online in the past have saved their most dramatic insults/comparisons for things they really, truly hated. Things they merely disliked or were apathetic to got more mundane condemnation.
Spidrift wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:03 pm
It's possible that I'm more inclined than some people to judge by consequences rather than by intentions, and DiDi never used to have really bad intentions, but the consequences of her actions were fairly terrible. Let's face it, if a character
deliberately did the stuff she did -- breaking men's hearts and bullying women -- nobody here would call them anything but the villain of the comic. But I don't buy the idea that good intentions excuse everything. The road to Hell is too well-paved for that.
No, they don't excuse anything she does, but they frame what she does in a different context. For all that writers try to justify Batman not killing the Joker by saying he would be stooping to his level if he did, that's a weak comparison. One killing that could well be quick and painless is downright harmless next to the Joker's bodycount and killing methods. Likewise the fact DiDi does what she does
without a Maleficent-esque cackle every few steps puts her a slight few rungs further down the ladder of jerkishness than she would be if she did it
with one.
Spidrift wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:03 pm
Compare and contrast some of the actual "villains" of the comic, such as Nathan or Yvan, who are really very petty and minor compared to DiDi. They're quite human; they just want or like sexual gratification, and treat people as a means to that end. But because they know they're doing it, they look worse than DiDi, who uses people as a means to an end, but has convinced herself that she's being
nice while she's doing it. I'd also suggest that the comic consistently shows the bad effects of addiction; Zii is addicted to hot casual sex, Matt is addicted to risk, Sonya is addicted to drama -- and these last couple of volumes, DiDi has become addicted to orgasms, which is why the mask of niceness has slipped and she's shown herself as at least as bad as those others, instead of hiding it.
Yes, I know, the search for l'orgasme brings out the worst in her. But hey, character flaws are there to be overcome by story's end or guide their owner to ruin. We've seen lots of the latter, and are starting to see some signs of the former now.
Spidrift wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:03 pm
Does DiDi want to change? The only thing I've seen her wanting to modify about herself is her anorgasmia, and that's about the only thing that has really changed with her. On the other hand, I completely and utterly disagree with you about Sonya; she's been
all about change, which she's enjoyed even if she didn't plan it -- and I don't think she's finished yet. Which means that Sonya is surely more in line for plausible "redemption" (i.e. radical positive change) than DiDi is.
There's this weird idea that character development always has to be positive -- that it's about becoming a nicer person and kicking more butt. But actually, the questions are (a) Is this character the same person as when we first saw them? (b) If not, did we see the change happen? and (c) If so, was the transformation plausible and interesting?
On that basis, DiDi has had little character development; she's still DiDi, just a bit meaner and more focused. Zii hasn't had much either, but it looks like her current plunge downwards might catalyse something interesting if rather rushed. Gary had zero development for nine volumes, and has now undergone some rushed and borderline-implausible development, though you can say that's a consequence of nine volumes' worth of experiences. Sonya, though, is
nothing like the naive and sexually confused waitress we saw on her first appearance; she's learned a lot about herself and her capabilities. Virtually every plotline she's appeared in has moved her character along a little. In the process, she's made a few screw-ups and gone to a few dark places, and in a darker and longer-running comic than this one, I'd believe that we've just seen the origin story of a major villain. But as it is, I'm betting we'll see one or two final twists in her story, so that she learns how to use her newly-developed skills without being quite such a melodrama villainess about it. That certainly strikes me as
possible, and likely to be fun, whereas I'll find DiDi becoming a truly good person rather less credible.
I'm well-aware of what Character Development constitutes, now that you mention it. And I'm aware of all those changes you keep bringing up, but let me ask you a question: What about developing her
morality? How's that worked out?
When I refer to Sonya not changing, I'm not talking about all those things you keep mentioning; I'm talking about whether or not her changes have made her a better person or made her want to be one. Just because change is not intrinsically good does not mean I have to enjoy changes that are negative or regressive, or irrelevant to morality. And her moral changes, as far as I can see? Net-negative, frankly. Similar to DiDi.
Besides, if we are taking and judging these characters as if they were people who make their own decisions rather than constructs yanked around by the writers with no autonomy or choice, and I believe that's what we are doing, then we should bear in mind that changing things about oneself in real life can be difficult. To borrow a quote from
Injustice 2...
A Superheroine named Vixen wrote:
You can go home again, Superman. But you have to want to change.
It'd take a while to explain the entire context for that quote, so suffice it to say that in
Injustice 2, Superman has turned evil out of unresolved anger and grief over the death of his wife as well as other factors and Vixen is trying to appeal to his good side. I've picked it because it perfectly encapsulates the struggle I face to make big changes to my life and maintain them, which other people I know have described similar experience with. To make and keep difficult changes, you have to
want it, and that's where my opinions of DiDi and Sonya diverge.
Let me put it to you like this: Yes, DiDi has been very, very bad to those around her at times. Yes, a lot of the things you've said about her are true. But one thing I've noticed throughout this comic has been that sometimes, when she does or is tempted to do something heinous, she realises she was in the wrong and apologises.
Like when she is tempted to seduce Sandra away from her dysfunctional relationship into a girl-love one with her, but ends up giving both her tickets to the play to her so she can go with Matt and enjoy themselves. (Note also the multi-storey shoulder angel and an offhand comment from her shoulder-demon
in the previous strip that she hasn't been tempted to conscious malice since pre-pubescent childhood. Not especially relevant but I feel I should point them out anyway.)
Or when she got in an argument with Yuki about having sex with Gary,
and ended up apologising (in French!) when called out on it by Zii.
Or after desperately trying to get off with Gary and leaving Zii high and dry, which led to
this, and later
an honest discussion of her feelings of fault with Peggy, and for follow-up
a rather misguided and not well-thought-through attempt to patch things up.
And at risk of repeating myself,
she recognised a negative behavioural pattern she had fallen back into on autopilot and pulled herself away from it. I notice you didn't list that under DiDi's character development.
I could go on, and you could probably find a way to explain away all of those as shallow or not-counting or some variation, and there's a lot in the middle I didn't touch on, but the fact she
can feel remorse and try to apologise and make amends and most importantly, may really have the potential to correct other bad behaviours of hers, means there is least precedent (or something approaching it) for DiDi to complete a redemption arc. Does she
want to? I don't know the answer to
that question, but I believe she could if it were properly explained to her how much damage she does when she's selfish and apathetic to other's suffering, even if she isn't trying to hurt them. It's perfectly fine to be sceptical she could pull it off, or think it would require plot contrivance this late in the game, but it's possible, even if it's not probable.
By contrast, with Sonya...
Yes, she's gotten more clever and cunning and learned how to manipulate people and use her body to maximum effect to get what she wants. There is that. But morals-wise? Her development car took a sharp right-turn onto Bitchy Lane, put the clutch into Park and decided to just sit there, it seems. And it
never left. It's been years since her dark side began to creep out with the rest of her development, but her moral development vehicle is STILL THERE, with no signs of moving anytime soon.
We've almost never seen Sonya do anything purely out of kindness and devotion, and the one time I can think of involved her obsessive love for Zii (that business with the concert the performed at). We've definitely never seen her own up to it or apologise when she got a relationship broken up or hurt someone's feelings. And we've never seen her receive a major calling-out that had any deep guilt-based effect on her. If anything, Zii's constant declarations of "No!" only made her push harder to have her. Even Peggy, who's the straight-woman to all these weirdos, has wound up being Sonya's enabler due to not understanding the nature of her obsession with Zii... or possibly not caring.
And if you think about it, Zii's rejections and tryst with DiDi are the only drawbacks to her behaviour; otherwise, the whole femme fatale routine has worked out pretty damn good for her. She's got the chance to have sex with a handsome man and many beautiful women, she's been amply able to generate as much drama as she could possibly want thanks to the dysfunctional social lives of the rest of the cast, getting to know Zii gave her the opportunity to become a highly-skilled bassist, the rarity of which has given her endless chances to spend time with the object of her affection and even the painful incident from the last volume turned out to be the perfect set up for a dish to be served ice-cold. So... why exactly would she want to become better? If her experience with cheating and breaking-up had given her a taste of what it was like for Zii and she reconsidered her past actions in that light, that would be a step in the right direction, but she didn't.
I would like to think someone would read her the Riot Act, but why would they in light of recent events? She's the victim and Zii's the asshole now, so Zii's more likely to get a dressing-down for the foreseeable future.
In short, Sonya won't get better without strong motivation, and unless the future conspires to make it so, pardon me if I'm sceptical she can do it.
Spidrift wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:03 pm
worldshaking00 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:48 am
As far as Didi goes, and how the forum doesn't seem to hate on her as much as Zii, I have a few theories. She is pretty and stacked; the stereotypical nerdy male target audience will gush over her, perhaps giving her a pass.
It's funny; I've been trying to avoid thinking that might be the explanation. Oh well. One of these days, I'll shed the last of these silly urges to think the best of people.
Or, I don't know, maybe it's what others have said and she strikes some people as more of a plot device than a character so the things she does are more like plot developments to them than misdeeds. Don't lose your faith in humanity just yet.
Edit: I know, I really made a doorstopper here, but my views on this comic are complex, multi-layered and can require a lot of talking to fully communicate.