12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

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Spidrift
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by Spidrift »

Mmm. One of the wonderful things about being human is that we can anticipate the consequences of our actions. We don't just act blindly and judge by the consequences; we can judge by what we anticipate.
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dmra
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by dmra »

Conmen the World over respectfully disagree. They know all too well that many people are only too willing to see the world how they want it to be rather than how it is. Just ask that Nigerian Prince who needs to move some money, and who will pay you a large amount of cash for doing so and just needs a few details -and a small advance of funds - from you first.

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Spidrift
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by Spidrift »

I was agreeing with you, note. But sure, "can" isn't the same as "do". Though not everyone falls for the Nigerian prince.
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-- Motto of Hogshead Publishing of fond memory, and wise words to set your Foes List by.
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dmra
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by dmra »

Sorry if I misunderstood. That's what I get for posting while watching TV. Maybe they're right and men can't multi task.

Of course most people don't fall for the Nigerian Prince scam but enough do that it's still worth doing it even though it ought to be about as obvious and notorious a scam as selling the Brooklyn Bridge.

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Spidrift
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by Spidrift »

Part of the problem is the negligible cost of high-volume e-mail spamming. Back in the days when postage or faxes cost real money, scams had to be a little more carefully constructed. Not that I'm convinced that the Nigerian scams are automatically profitable, though; I suspect that there are a lot of not-overly-bright Nigerians getting ripped off for standard scripts and CDs full of out-of-date e-mail addresses.

But we digress.
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Spidrift
"Brevior vita est quam pro futumentibus negotium agendo."
-- Motto of Hogshead Publishing of fond memory, and wise words to set your Foes List by.
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Dr. Jamming
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by Dr. Jamming »

I only bring consequentialism into it because it seems like people seem entirely hung up on titles and formal rules. If Kiley wasn't a psych student and was just helping her friends, I feel like there would be no issue here. It seems as if her massive success is completely ignored, simply because she's breaking a formal rule. This is not to say that such rules don't have good reason to exist, but it is to say that application of rules in and of itself is not always productive. Breaking a rule does not mean that someones actions are wrong, bad, or undesirable.

A man should know that putting on a weird costume and swinging around the city trying to fight criminals is a recipe for disaster, so whether he's saved the city or not Bruce Wayne is an idiot and a menace. Doesn't he know that so many things he's doing are illegal? Meanwhile Clark Kent shouldn't even be here. Where is his green card? His parents should be jailed for kidnapping as well; I bet their adoption paperwork isn't in order.
Should people dress as animal mascots and go into the streets to punch mobsters? Should anyone be allowed to just fly an aircraft into a country and take up residence there? Should people just keep random babies they find? Generally no. Sometimes yes.

If, in the course of a story, a group of artists put on a festival to save an old theater, it's hardly helpful to criticize them for engaging in uncertified labor and non-compliant work-practices, but similar seems to be the crux of a lot of arguments against Kiley's "therapy".
Kiley has been a massive help to her patients.It's not a matter of the ends justifying the means; her means have been reasonable, even if they are unorthodox or those of a talented amateur.
I find it hard to judge Kiley's actions as bad or undesirable. If not for Kiley's "therapy" would Yuki be better off? Would Didi? I'd say certainly not. Yuki would still be hallucinating wildly and assaulting people in the streets, and Didi would be at her wit's end with frustration.
Kiley approached with good intentions; she reasonably thought she would succeed, and she has, even if not without complications. But then, it is a comedy strip after all and where would we be without complications?

dmra
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by dmra »

Dr. Jamming wrote: Kiley approached with good intentions; she reasonably thought she would succeed, and she has, even if not without complications. But then, it is a comedy strip after all and where would we be without complications?
Her good intentions mean she's lied to her "patients" about being their therapist rather than somebody unqualified experimenting on them. If she thought she was being reasonable why isn't she doing her "therapy" with Yuki and Didi through the professional structures she should be operating under rather than breaking every rule qualified professional therapists should adhere to?

What Kiley has done is the therapy equivalent of betting the rent on the famliy home on a sure fire can't lose horse. She got lucky and it was placed so this month the family won't be facing eviction.

But, as you say, it is a comic and meant to be funny so it's probably best not to overthink it and just enjoy the story line no matter how preposterous and risky it would be in real life.

Dr. Jamming
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by Dr. Jamming »

She never lied to them. She's been clear and upfront about being a student working on her thesis. She's volunteered the information and said so when asked. She's not using formal structures because she's not formally a therapist.
I'd say it's much more equivalent to a culinary arts student catering a friend's wedding using a home rather than commercial kitchen. Or, at worst, like a med student practicing on their friends off the clock. She's outside her formal scope, but I don't think she's succeeding on luck alone. Kiley is able to do what she does because she is smart and talented. Gary, for instance, has everything he does work or not work based on luck. Kiley does things on purpose, succeeding based on skill, and sometimes has complications, at least that's my read of it.

To address your analogy more directly, looking at what Kiley's done: it's like an up-and-coming business major convincing her friends to invest in her business, and then immediately turning a profit for them.

dmra
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by dmra »

To judge Kiley's honesty and upfrontness you might want to look at the title of this thread. By her own admission she's "playing girlfriend" but I'm pretty clear that Didi doesn't see it that way. Kiley (for whatever reason) in't correcting her so rather than being successful she finds herself trapped in a relationship she doesn't want and which getting out of could cause the other person genuine pain at being led to believe something that isn't true. Not my definition of success.

A funny story line in the comic (well not that funny to be honest) but one that in real life is likely to end in badly either for the "therapist" or the "patient" or both.

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Dr. Jamming
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by Dr. Jamming »

I went back and checked, just to be sure, and the therapy was totally Didi's idea. Kiley was clear that that was what they were doing, even noting that it was a case study, and has even tried to stop. However, Didi has been very persuasive, as is her way.
While she is trying to confront her own issues in the meantime, Kiley's totally forcing herself to be there on strength of altruism.

dmra
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by dmra »

Surely any right thinking consequentialist would see an outcome where one participant is forcing themselves to stay in a relationship out of altruism as a less than desirable one?

Certainly Kylie seems to regret her situation and is doing her best to get out of it. Just a shame she didn't do what any competent therapist would have done which is not get themselves in that position in the first place.

Still as long as she means well.

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Dr. Jamming
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by Dr. Jamming »

Ha

Romantically it's not much for her, but she is getting some good practice in, and she gets to confront boobs. Doing favors for others can often be exhausting or difficult, but that's part of why we admire altruism, and consider helpers to be all the more noble when they put themselves out. That it's a bother for her to do hardly diminishes the goodness of the act, especially as it was her choice, unlike Didi's anorgasmia, which was forced on her.
Kiley set out to help people, and has succeeded in doing so. She could bail if she wanted to, but she's too nice for that. I'm not sure of your precise position, but I read that you think Kiley is doing a bad thing by conducting therapy for people. I, contrariwise, think that she's doing a good thing with her therapy. It's plain that she's doing an unlicensed and unprofessional thing, but those are a separate matter from whether it's bad.
Kiley's patients would be far worse of if not for Kiley's talent and willingness to help. I do also feel like Kiley will make good on doing something for herself with her finely-honed skills.

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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by dmra »

MA3 is a comic strip so the chances are that Kiley's "therapy" was bound to be relatively successful regardless of the real world possibilities.

We are after all dealing with a world where Yuki can go on a rampage through the streets of Canadian city leaving a trail of assaulted men in her wake and not suffer a single negative consequence. In reality anybody with a history of violence like Yuki's would almost certainly either be in prison or in an institution.

Even within the confines of the comic strip Kiley's successes are hardly fantastic. Yuki is still reacting badly enough to "tentacles" that she beats up her partners during sex. Didi has indeed had an orgasm but is now fixated on her therapist who finds herself in an involuntary relationship with her which she is frantic to get out of.

Even if we accept that Kiley has succeeded isn't it possible that doing a more conventional (albeit a far less comic strip) approach would have produced better results. Referring Yuki to a fully qualified and experienced therapist for example. Or telling Didi , "look I'm not your girlfriend but I have shown you how to achieve orgasm. What you should do now is not become obsessed with me but see a proper expert who can help you in real relationships with people who return your feelings". Or at the very least say to her "look now you know what you need to be satisfied try telling your partners so that they know what you need".

Not desperately funny but much more likely to produce positive results than a part qualified therapist with no practical experience who is so arrogant that they think they can just ignore the practical and ethical rules drawn up to avoid clients being exploited and to protect therapists themselves. If nothing else Kiley should have learnt one of the first lessons taught to all therapists that self diagnosis and treatment should be avoided at all costs.

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Vitocap
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by Vitocap »

(sorry out of thread) can anyone translate this:
"Liffen miffter backfeat blowjoffb!"
said by Peggy blowing Gary while Matt trashtalks her (I think I get the words, but don't get the overall meaning)
We, the old ghosts of Pizen Bluff, who still roam about this dead forum screaming imprecations at the characters and whatnot.

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Spidrift
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by Spidrift »

"Listen, Mister Backseat-Blowjob!"
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Spidrift
"Brevior vita est quam pro futumentibus negotium agendo."
-- Motto of Hogshead Publishing of fond memory, and wise words to set your Foes List by.
Avatar misappropriated from the wonderful XKCD.

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