12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

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Dr. Jamming
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by Dr. Jamming »

dmra wrote:MA3 is a comic strip so the chances are that Kiley's "therapy" was bound to be relatively successful regardless of the real world possibilities.

We are after all dealing with a world where Yuki can go on a rampage through the streets of Canadian city leaving a trail of assaulted men in her wake and not suffer a single negative consequence. In reality anybody with a history of violence like Yuki's would almost certainly either be in prison or in an institution.

Even within the confines of the comic strip Kiley's successes are hardly fantastic. Yuki is still reacting badly enough to "tentacles" that she beats up her partners during sex. Didi has indeed had an orgasm but is now fixated on her therapist who finds herself in an involuntary relationship with her which she is frantic to get out of.

Even if we accept that Kiley has succeeded isn't it possible that doing a more conventional (albeit a far less comic strip) approach would have produced better results. Referring Yuki to a fully qualified and experienced therapist for example. Or telling Didi , "look I'm not your girlfriend but I have shown you how to achieve orgasm. What you should do now is not become obsessed with me but see a proper expert who can help you in real relationships with people who return your feelings". Or at the very least say to her "look now you know what you need to be satisfied try telling your partners so that they know what you need".

Not desperately funny but much more likely to produce positive results than a part qualified therapist with no practical experience who is so arrogant that they think they can just ignore the practical and ethical rules drawn up to avoid clients being exploited and to protect therapists themselves. If nothing else Kiley should have learnt one of the first lessons taught to all therapists that self diagnosis and treatment should be avoided at all costs.

Quote removed. The DAMNed
I wouldn't so readily dismiss or deny Kiley's abilities.
We'll have to disagree about the extent of Kiley's successes, as I'd say what she's done has been dramatic. Consider how bad Yuki was: Rampaging through town in a fugue at the sight of a penis is miles away from "initiate and complete intercourse with a man".
Didi too was unable to get satisfaction from any of her many studly and seductive partners (Matt certainly knows how to lay on the romance), or from Peggy, an actual medical professional, wo is caring, open-minded, and who has no small amount of prowess herself.
Kiley got dramatic results for both of them, and quickly. It's also worth remembering that their therapy is ongoing, with further improvement being on the menu. I believe this is, at least partially, due to her unorthodox approach.
Conventional therapy would have taken years and years and, as you note, made for poor comic fodder. In Yuki's case there's also the issue would have gotten a penis for her to handle, in the event that they ever even got to exposure therapy at all. Many of Kiley's therapeutic solutions involve her getting (or being) a sexual partner for her patient, and while that is possible in a traditional setting, its availability is quite limited. Sexual surrogate therapy may not have been available at all. In practical terms "I will help you" is also more likely to result in action than "you should get help", the former being immediate availability of aid vs the latter being an idle suggestion.

In short, a more conventional approach would have definitely been safer and potentially had fewer side-effects, but timescale would be an issue. Kiley has done things that a conventional therapist couldn't, and she has done them to good effect. I wouldn't wish years-more of frustrating anorgasmia on Didi, and everyone else in the strip would have long-since moved on with their lives before any professional would deem Yuki ready to face the world. Kiley is, indeed, the therapeutic equivalent of a vigilante, and while I won't by any means make an unequivocal endorsement of vigilantism, no one looks forward to the exciting adventures of "call the police"-man.

This post ended up longer than I anticipated.

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Spidrift
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by Spidrift »

The hilarious thing is that both sides in this argument are persistently arguing in Boring Real World terms, which could cynically be considered clueless. On the one side, yes, Kiley's behaviour would have her (metaphorically) strung up by the giblets in reality, and anyway, even with exceptional luck, she'd have caused an horrific psychiatric disaster by now. On the other, yes, by real-world standards, Kiley has achieved extraordinary positive results with incredible speed, and could be considered heroically triumphant.

But this is a comic strip, not the Boring Real World, and both those points are completely irrelevant. "Realistically," Batman is a law-breaking vigilante who accomplishes amazing things for Gotham City, but the Batman comics are still good at what they do (but don't take them as any sort of useful guide to good criminological policy).
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Spidrift
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dmra
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by dmra »

True up to a point.

Almost all fiction requires some degree of willing suspension of disbelief but it helps if that is done in a consistent manner and doesn't stretch credulity too far.

MA3 is broadly consistent within it's own logic but some story lines have pushed the line quite a bit when it comes to credibility. You have for instance noted more than once that Gary is surprisingly well toned for a computer geek. I can't recall ever seeing him exercise but somehow he manages to have a physique that many men would kill for. He's also in the space of less than a comic year gone from virginal geek to man whose had two models fighting over him and become a living sex toy for any number of porn stars.

Whether or not that affects enjoyment of the comic is obviously a matter of personal preference. I don't find it credible for one second but it's moderately entertaining so I'm willing to go along for the ride. Gary is ,after all, a character to whom things happen rather than one who sets out to do things which then happen so while not exactly plausible it doesn't harm the character as such.

I do find the whole Kiley/therapy thing jarring and don't desperately enjoy it. The thing is that therapy is as relevant to Kiley's character as Peggy's being a nurse is to hers. That (along with her having a complex about her breasts) was and is one of the defining features of her as a character and has been a major factor in many of her story lines. So to dismiss discussion of the plausibility or her competence as a therapist as completely irrelevant is hardly justified.

As a parallel a story line where Peggy gives medical advice or applies first aid wouldn't be an issue. However if she was shown carrying out open heart surgery that would be a major shark jumping moment.

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Spidrift
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by Spidrift »

But these comics give the finger to realism on a regular basis. There are exceptions - someone actually seems to care about Peggy's professionalism, to the point where I'm guessing that one of the writers has a close friend or relation who's a nurse - but anything from airliner travel times to proper CPR technique can cause headbanging among any readers who pay attention.

Basically, these are '50s-style American teen comics where the characters have been given ten extra years and working genitals. Looking at them too closely is just asking for trouble.
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Spidrift
"Brevior vita est quam pro futumentibus negotium agendo."
-- Motto of Hogshead Publishing of fond memory, and wise words to set your Foes List by.
Avatar misappropriated from the wonderful XKCD.

dmra
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by dmra »

Which is why I don't generally look too closely at them and don't worry too much about realism even though I tend to find the more realistic story lines funnier and more interesting.

Things like Yuki and Sonya having the competition over Gary and later their love/hate/intense sexual attraction were a lot more interesting to me than seeing Yuki walking the streets of the city leaving a trail of men clutching their injured genitals or Sonya predictably declaring "I'm not a lesbian" after yet another sexual encounter with a woman.

With Kiley it jars that somebody who should be an intelligent professional is acting completely out of character as a therapist (and Didi's "girlfriend") but it's not going to stop me reading the comic. I'll just go "ho hum" and wait patiently until the story moves onto to something I enjoy more

I'd imagine you'd feel something similar if Sonya suddenly announced that she had had enough of the hurly burly of city life and was going to retire to the countryside to keep bees. Marvellous comic opportunities there but hardly in character and nowhere near as good as seeing her acting in a way that's consistent with her inner drama queen.

Dr. Jamming
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by Dr. Jamming »

I think that that's the main difference with how we see things. Unprofessional "adventuresome" conduct doesn't bother me at all, and I actually like it. Imagine complaining that Sherlock Holmes is operating far beyond and outside the scope of a private investigator and should be dead/jailed, or that no Archeologist would act like Indiana Jones and that this so-called professor should be kicked out of academia. Fictional characters are practically always well outside the bounds of their real-life professional duties or strictures and, at least in my opinion, are all the more interesting for it.

I like the Kiley therapy plot-lines; they're fun and she actually solves problems for the other characters while getting into trouble of her own. Of course, I'm perfectly happy to watch a medical doctor perform dangerous surgery in a non sterile location during the course of solving an international jewel-theft. :)

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dmra
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Re: 12-01-17 You playing girlfriend

Post by dmra »

And I'm sure you love it when a renegade scientist dismissed by the establishment for unorthodox methods is proved right or when a maverick cop ignores all procedures but it's OK because he gets results dammit!.

And you're right the Indiana Jones stories make for a much more cinematic experience than a film of Time Team ever would ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Team. ) The problem is saying that Jones is an archaeologist when in reality he's not much more than a tomb robber. By all means praise him as an adventurer but best gloss over the whole academic side of things. And certainly don't hold him up as a paradigm for anybody planning a career excavating sites. You know the kind of person considerably more likely to need a trowel and a sieve than they are a pistol and a whip.

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