23-10-08 ...Really?!

[Bear]

Pauperes commilitones Christi Templique Solomonici --------> Swiss Bank account prime example. Dig a fellow history buff!

History rules! lol

That my point THEY ALWAYS seem to have magnanimous amount of valid points using logic to mix and match it with illogical fantasy induced facts (IMHO). Again, don't know for sure if Gisele or Dave need to be going for something like this so soon early in the story, already we're in debate (agreeing to disagree) over this.

Thats kind of what I was trying to say. I'm terrible at clear explainations some times. I think a good debate brings more realism to the comic though and helps draw people in. Be it that people agree or disagree, it brings in more hits and helps expand peoples understanding for the most part.

And now.. since I'm bored of quote trees... lol

@Ray D: I agree with everything you've had to say on Gary and how religion could have messed him up along with the other social aspects of his life. I'm sorry that you find my religious veiw a little negative... I'm not down on religion, or against religion. They have done as much good as they have bad over the years, I just seriously dislike how people have so easily come to use religion as a reason/excuse/weapon for their own personal agendas and misdemeanours... Which takes me to:

@David Johnston: As above, I was using them to point out how religion has become used to excuse peoples behaviour and to cause trouble. I know the KKK's reason are just plain racism, but they've used the Bible as their excuse for it... Even though they seem to have completely jump over the fact that Jesus was black. Historical fact that Jesus was born Jewish, and all people of Jewish faith in that area at the time were of Arabic origin. Okay, so perhaps he wasn't black, but Jesus certainly wasn't white as the Catholic and Christian chruches as a whole choose to depict him. Same with the Nazi's in that even though their hated for the Jew's came from Hitlers own bad experiences and personal hatred for the rich Jewish business men during the depression in Germany after the first world war, they still came to use religion as a further excuse for them being in the wrong.

[dianekikiula]

Ugh. I really don't want to jump into the religious mess going on here, but I feel compelled.

Judaism for the Nazis wasn't about religion, as others have mentioned. Let me further that thought by pointing out that converted Jews - by which I mean those who became Christian or some other religion or lack thereof - also were sent to the concentration camps. Add in the fact that the Holocaust killed gypsies (Roma if you prefer), ethnic Poles, handicapped persons, and gay men, it wasn't about religion. Jews were killed for their ethnic identity, not their religious identity. It was about racial and bodily superiority; it was about advancing the Aryan Race.


Atheism isn't the better alternative to religion, if you're talking about destructiveness. Atheist leaders like Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao probably took more human lives than all the Crusades combined.

[Don Alexander]

Atheism isn't the better alternative to religion, if you're talking about destructiveness. Atheist leaders like Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao probably took more human lives than all the Crusades combined.

Ahh, but did they kill in the name of Atheism??

I'm not denying that such happens too, just look at some of the things going on in eastern Asia today. But I think most of the terrors of the Stalinist pogroms, the Great Leap Forward or the Khmer Rouge were not executed under the banner of explicit non-religion.

Just saying.

[Dryope]

Yes, I was overly harsh on Gary. Gary, I apologize. You may be completely correct in your assessment and those girls may really have been playin' games with you. At this point I do not know all the facts. Although, when I was in school it was the boys who asked girls out and then laughed, not the other way around. o_o Girls rarely asked boys out at all (there was this whole notion that if he wasn't brave enough to ask you out he wasn't worth it, anyway. And woe betide any guy who had his friend ask the girl out for him. That was way worse than not askin' at all.)

I cannot be objective in a discussion where religion is portrayed as the root of all evil so I will just go head on over to another thread now.

[Bear]

I've not, and have not said that 'Religion is the root of all evil'. The point I've tried to make is that more bad things have been done in the name of religion then not and that religion has been used as an excuse for much of what it wrong with the world, rather then the real reason that some people are just asses. Simply because I expressed the veiw that religion has caused alot of humanities troubles, doesn't mean that I don't believe in the good that it supports too such as the various christian charity groups, soup kitchens, youth groups, support networks etc.

Its only when religion is turn to a bad cause, or used as an excuse for one that I believe its been 'The Root of all Evil' as you call it.

[tilde]

[...] Or montage. Because there's nothing a montage can't do.

Yay, montages!! Especially 80s-style "cleaning the house before the parents get home" ones...mmm...yeah...

Also...

Incidentally, I was under the impression Canada actively discouraged religion. >.>

Err...wha? Is ">.>" an emoticon I'm not familiar with denoting some kind of mild joshing, or are you being serious/making some point, Dryope? While organized religion isn't my particular bag (or disorganized religion, for that matter...except maybe Discordianism), we've got buttloads of religions (including the JW, for whoever it was who wondered earlier) and religious folk up here. We've got a newly elected Conservative gov't in office (granted, only a minorty, but a stronger one than last time) reflecting what I think it a strong "morals/values" worldview. (The scare-quotes indicate a general annoyance at the Right's association of morals & values with religion, as though neither could come from anywhere else.)

Uh. Yeah. </rant>

[Dryope]

o_o I wasn't serious about Canada not allowing religion. Prolly shouldn't have followed a rant with that, though, now I think about it.

[ShadowRaven]

My guess is that Gary grew up in one of the too numerous to count Christian Fundamentalist offshoots. Though I did notice that no religious groups names where mentioned. Good plan that. Still in such a case he probably got the whole dogma with his Orange Juice bit at home, and could very well have only been allowed to associate with the other people his own age that where of the same religious persuasion. Imagine, if you will, not fitting in with a group, and they where the only ones you where allowed to really spend time with?

Also, on a semi related note, last panel Zii. I think is more of a "me? nice? are we talking about the same me here?" expression then an angry one. Kinda shocked and confused. Though from the second to last pannel I think it's pretty clear that Zii wants to be liked and especially thought of as 'cool'

[perilsofrosella]

Zii is so cute! But I must admit, I was a little confused with her inner-monologue "really". I suppose I would have expected her to look more aghast and less offended.

[tilde]

I just re-read this whole thread after checking the strip again, and my feeling is that people are generally misinterpreting Zii's expression in the last panel inset.

I don't see it as anger or anything of that sort. Instead, it looks distressingly devious to me. It's been mentioned in other strips that Zii maybe (probably?) doesn't have a job at all, and so I'm wondering whether this realization of "he thinks I'm the bee's knees" hasn't caused her to realize that she may be able to weasel her way out of rent...

I hope I'm wrong in this assessment of Zii. Although she seems to be generally nice, she's sufficiently multifaceted that I wouldn't be terribly surprised if she tried to shaft Gary. It's still WAY early in their friendship/relationship/roommatehood.

Also, DiDi's the bomb.

[Azrael]

Ok as to Zii's expression in the insert, I interprated as a "What? Are you freaking kidding me?" disbelief kind of thing. As in she can not believe she is the nicest girl Gary knows, yes?

[Dirty n Evil]

Hey, I'll dogpile on this strip like everyone else with my possibly interpretation of this latest strip.

For me, I see that perhaps where Gary talks about religion, he's likely meaning a more fundamentalist branch (such as an earlier poster suggested). And, it might not even be entirely the branch's fault... it could very well be his immediately family and their interpretation of how their faith is expressed. Yes he does say "community", but when the strictest rules are steadily applied by stern parents, he could see the "community" less as a support (such as a religion should provide) and more as a group of individuals like-minded to his parents.

The "playing mind games" comment... here's how I'd field this. Let's say you're a shy, self conscious, prone to escapism (avid comic book reader & video gamer) young man who's taught that nature's instincts are a sin and evil. You're still drawn to some of the prettier girls growing up, but as many of us know those are frequently some of the more vain and malicious creatures ever developed through social Darwinism. But, you're trying hard to please your religious upbringing, so you try to show these girls what a "nice boy" you are. :roll: Can anyone tell me what happens when manipulative little high school princesses know they have a "nice boy" wrapped around their finger? They chew them up and spit them out, just to see how many times the guy keeps coming back in a desperate plea to prove how decent and good he is. That's when the snowball starts rolling down hill, growing into the overwhelming avalanche of never even holding hands with a girl at 29.

So, I think it's very likely that Gary tried (in all the inneffective ways) to get the attention of girls when he was younger... but as he got older, he was too gun shy and even scared of being chewed up again to initiate interest in a girl. Social opportunities often diminish after a certain age, and you end up spending each night playing video games with your roomies who are secretly gay.

And now, my interpretation of Zii's facial expressions for this strip. In panel #2, I'd say that's sympathy. She's listening to him, placing herself in his shoes, and feels badly that he had that sort of life when he was younger. In panel #3, those pursed lips are clearly in response to her own imagination and these scenarios she builds in her mind. Zii clearly has a very active imagination when it comes to sex, likes her classic scenes, and thinks quickly on her feet about it (telling Dillon about the "rip the shirt" game). Finally, in panel #4 part 1 we have Zii reacting to a genuine compliment that bypasses her jaded personality and sarcasm. She's truly warmed by Gary's praise. In panel #4 part 2 we have the "huh, what?" face of trying to relate being called nicest & coolest girl every known. Zii knows she's a brat, and often inconsiderate. It's the same face I get when people at work call me a "good guy" - I'm Dirty 'n Evil, dammit!
:lol:

[Pneumonica]

o_o I wasn't serious about Canada not allowing religion. Prolly shouldn't have followed a rant with that, though, now I think about it.

That'd be my whoopsie, then. Although, might i reccomend greater use of emoticons i the future? :?

Ahh, but did they kill in the name of Atheism??

I'm not denying that such happens too, just look at some of the things going on in eastern Asia today. But I think most of the terrors of the Stalinist pogroms, the Great Leap Forward or the Khmer Rouge were not executed under the banner of explicit non-religion.

Yes, they did. In China, during the cultural revolution, priests of all faiths were tortured and/or slain in quantity. Stalin used religiousness as a basis for imprisonment (and time spent in a gulag is a death sentence, so I count it). Faith in anything other than the Khmer Rouge was punishable by death. I actually personally knew Dith Pran, and he specifically recalled people who had a religious text (Bible, Torah, etc.) or religious iconography being pronounced as suffering from "overthought" and thus being "euthanized".

The line "religion is the opiate of the masses" has been an excuse for two seperate holocausts (I count Stalin's reign as one, but I realize that others disagree and I understand it's a loose interpretation of the term). It wasn't the only reason they did it, but yes, they did commit genocide in the name of atheism. Autocratic communist regimes are well-known for killing the faithful.

[Don Alexander]

Ahh, but did they kill in the name of Atheism??

I'm not denying that such happens too, just look at some of the things going on in eastern Asia today. But I think most of the terrors of the Stalinist pogroms, the Great Leap Forward or the Khmer Rouge were not executed under the banner of explicit non-religion.

Yes, they did. In China, during the cultural revolution, priests of all faiths were tortured and/or slain in quantity. Stalin used religiousness as a basis for imprisonment (and time spent in a gulag is a death sentence, so I count it). Faith in anything other than the Khmer Rouge was punishable by death. I actually personally knew Dith Pran, and he specifically recalled people who had a religious text (Bible, Torah, etc.) or religious iconography being pronounced as suffering from "overthought" and thus being "euthanized".

The line "religion is the opiate of the masses" has been an excuse for two seperate holocausts (I count Stalin's reign as one, but I realize that others disagree and I understand it's a loose interpretation of the term). It wasn't the only reason they did it, but yes, they did commit genocide in the name of atheism. Autocratic communist regimes are well-known for killing the faithful.

Okay, I stand corrected. Thanks for the infos!

So, we have people killing for religion, people killing other people for being of another religion, and people killing people for being religious...

"What a wonderful world"... :evil:

Concerning Stalin's actions... Hmm... I don't have the background and it's probably semantics, but isn't the Third Reich's extermination campaign of the Jews (and others) "The Holocaust"? In the sense that the word applies to this one event. Wikipedia states: "Post-1970s coinings of the type "name Holocaust" in the sense of "genocide" or "mass murder" imply a comparison to the German holocaust and are often used polemically.[citation needed]" (I left the last thing in too...)

Please, please, I'm not defending Stalin's actions in any form or fashion (wuargh!), I'm just reasoning that the name Holocaust might not be applicable and "genocide" (which it clearly was!!) should be applied. Which does not make it ONE whit better, of course!

Alas, Stalin's reign of terror is becoming pretty sugercoated in modern Russia, at least among the hardliners... :?

I'm sincerely looking forward to the comic tomorrow. New thread. This one has become very dark. Sorry.

[Retiarius]

Ahh, but did they kill in the name of Atheism??

I'm not denying that such happens too, just look at some of the things going on in eastern Asia today. But I think most of the terrors of the Stalinist pogroms, the Great Leap Forward or the Khmer Rouge were not executed under the banner of explicit non-religion.

Yes, they did. In China, during the cultural revolution, priests of all faiths were tortured and/or slain in quantity. Stalin used religiousness as a basis for imprisonment (and time spent in a gulag is a death sentence, so I count it). Faith in anything other than the Khmer Rouge was punishable by death. I actually personally knew Dith Pran, and he specifically recalled people who had a religious text (Bible, Torah, etc.) or religious iconography being pronounced as suffering from "overthought" and thus being "euthanized".

The line "religion is the opiate of the masses" has been an excuse for two seperate holocausts (I count Stalin's reign as one, but I realize that others disagree and I understand it's a loose interpretation of the term). It wasn't the only reason they did it, but yes, they did commit genocide in the name of atheism. Autocratic communist regimes are well-known for killing the faithful.

I think you’ll find on closer examination that atheism had little to do with it. These sorts of dictatorships don’t like anything that can sway or organize people against them, and religion is definitely one of those things. It’s common for dictatorships to stomp anything they regard as a threat. But a dictator will profess any religion—or none—in public, if that’s what he wants the public to believe. Stalin, for example, may not have been religious but he is thought to have been rather superstitious.

In other cases, a dictator may direct a people’s hatred against a weaker social group that stands out, which is why the Jews have taken it in the shorts all these centuries. Their customs tend to make them a socially indigestable group within most countries, so they stand out more. This, unfortunately, makes them a handy target for a dictator looking for someone to blame problems on to distract the population.

Of course, a country doesn’t have to be a dictatorship for such things to happen, they just tend to be more pronounced under one.