22-03-10 I, Tiffany Winters

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Kamino Neko
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Re: 22-03-10 I, Tiffany Winters

Post by Kamino Neko »

HollyG wrote:nice colouring on the Katana!
Just to nitpick a bit, it's actually a wakizashi - katanas are far longer. Unless she's exceptionally tall, there's no way that's 2'+.

It MAY be a ninjato, as it's hard to tell just what Giz is going for, but it LOOKS to be curved, and (modern/fictional) ninjato are typically straight. (I say 'modern/fictional' as there's some evidence there wasn't any real consistency to those used by actual historical ninja.)
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Re: 22-03-10 I, Tiffany Winters

Post by David Johnston »

Kamino Neko wrote:
HollyG wrote:nice colouring on the Katana!
Just to nitpick a bit, it's actually a wakizashi - katanas are far longer. Unless she's exceptionally tall, there's no way that's 2'+.

It MAY be a ninjato, as it's hard to tell just what Giz is going for, but it LOOKS to be curved, and (modern/fictional) ninjato are typically straight. (I say 'modern/fictional' as there's some evidence there wasn't any real consistency to those used by actual historical ninja.)
Hard to believe. After all, what ninja wouldn't want to walk around with a blade that clearly and distinctively advertised their profession, right? ;)

In any case I feel a bit sorry for Tiffany. She's apparently an orphan, her head has been stuffed with nonsense, and whoever trained her seems have been setting her up to get herself killed. And she's going to be humiliated.

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Kamino Neko
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Re: 22-03-10 I, Tiffany Winters

Post by Kamino Neko »

David Johnston wrote:Hard to believe. After all, what ninja wouldn't want to walk around with a blade that clearly and distinctively advertised their profession, right? ;)
Heh...indeed so. See also: Black pyjamas. (Lord how I hate black pyjama ninja.)
I swear I will, I'll make you smile.

Original fiction by Neko: Heroes of Angel City (now in convenient (and edited) ebook form!). Kuchisake.

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Re: 22-03-10 I, Tiffany Winters

Post by coldkingnowhere »

David Johnston wrote:In any case I feel a bit sorry for Tiffany. She's apparently an orphan, her head has been stuffed with nonsense, and whoever trained her seems have been setting her up to get herself killed. And she's going to be humiliated.
I'm not sure she's necessarily an orphan just because she says she will make her parents proud. They may be famous slayers and she just wants to live up to their reputations.

Again, I'm really enjoying Ms. Winters' introduction to the strip at this time, she's a perfect foil for Ebil Nina. Though, since I'm not a Buffy fan, I'm not hearing Sarah Michelle-Gellar's voice in my head; instead all I hear is Patrick Stewart:

"Slayer's Log: Stardate 312779. It appears my shoelaces have entered some sort of vortex that caused them to tie themselves together. It's possible that this is the doing of a sentient lifeform; intelligent and clearly ebil. I've launched a class one probe into the area to investigate."

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Re: 22-03-10 I, Tiffany Winters

Post by BobDole »

Kamino Neko wrote:
David Johnston wrote:Hard to believe. After all, what ninja wouldn't want to walk around with a blade that clearly and distinctively advertised their profession, right? ;)
Heh...indeed so. See also: Black pyjamas. (Lord how I hate black pyjama ninja.)
But the black pajama ninjas were the real ones!

No, seriously! Ninjas were their era's CIA. They used disguises, specialized weaponry, and were given missions of espionage, spying, and assassinations. The black pajama garb was the dress for stage hands in Kabuki theater. It allowed them to do the set changes and special effects without being disruptive to the performance since they blended into the shadows on stage. Ninjas would dress like them so they could assassinate their high social standing targets easily and anonymously since those bulls' eyed big-wigs had front row seats usually.

As for all the other super powers that ninjas were supposed to have, they grew out of things just like the black pajamas. Defying gravity and climbing walls came from their climbing claws that would have been pretty hard to notice at night, when they'd be used. Catching swords with their bare hands came from those claws too - though it's a risky sword block.

Ninjas are real! But the CIA is closer to what they were like than any movie ever is. :)

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Re: 22-03-10 I, Tiffany Winters

Post by Adamas »

coldkingnowhere wrote: I've launched a class one probe into the area to investigate."

Methinks Ms. Winters is too young to be launching probes. :ymdevil:
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Re: 22-03-10 I, Tiffany Winters

Post by negzee »

Miss Tiffany Winters, you've got your work cut out for you. I feel bad for you already, if you're to be a recurring character. :p

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Re: 22-03-10 I, Tiffany Winters

Post by Kamino Neko »

BobDole wrote:The black pajama garb was the dress for stage hands in Kabuki theater. It allowed them to do the set changes and special effects without being disruptive to the performance since they blended into the shadows on stage. Ninjas would dress like them so they could assassinate their high social standing targets easily and anonymously since those bulls' eyed big-wigs had front row seats usually.
Very close, but not actually correct.

The black pyjamas ARE from Kabuki theatre, and stagehands (called Kuroko) did wear them - not so they would blend into shadows (which would render the stagehands useless, as they couldn't actually manipulate props, set pieces, or the stage (all of which they often did while the play was still going on) without coming into the light), but because the audience was conditioned to ignore anyone on stage dressed all in black. This technique is used in Kabuki, Noh, and Bunraku, where the stagehands or puppeteers would be fully visible on stage - sometimes black backgrounds are used to make them harder to see, but that's not always the case, or desirable. Here's the Wikipedia article on kuroko, which has a picture of one...clearly showing him kneeling right behind an actor. (That appears to be a Noh play, not Kabuki, but same idea.)

And that's why they're portrayed in black pyjamas - not because they were trying to hide at Kabuki shows, but because being in black pyjamas equalled 'invisible' in Kabuki (and Bunraku, and Noh), so showing a ninja dressed all in black was shorthand for their being invisible, while still showing them. And, in the actual plays, when the guys in the black pyjamas became active characters on stage, that would amount to coming out of nowhere so far as the audience was concerned. Instant ninja stealth, without having to go through the trouble of making special effects.

Actual ninja wore whatever was convenient to get at their target. If their target was going to be at a Kabuki show, then, dressing as a stage hand may have been useful... But not likely. Blending into the audience would have been more useful to a ninja, unless their target was an actor, stagehand, prop, costume, or whathaveyou. (All highly unlikely circumstances.)

Even then, it'd be more convenient for thefts, than assassinations - ninja weren't suicide warriors. They were supposed to get out of their adventures alive. Killing someone in a public place - especially bursting off a stage during a play and attacking them, in full view of the rest of the audience (rather than coming up behind them and quietly sticking a dagger in their back) - is not really conducive to this. (Although, if that's the only way to get at the target, well, maybe you'll have to.)

A ninja would be dressed as someone who belongs there, wherever there is - a peasant working in a field, or a wandering monk, or a merchant, or a samurai in armour (and many known or suspected ninja were actually samurai), or just a random regular person who happens to be there.

Even at a Kabuki show, if not in the audience, they'd be better off as actors than kuroko. Kabuki actors were known to double as prostitutes (which got early forms of Kabuki banned), and a ninja get the target in a vulnerable position that way. Even if they chose the wrong (non-ninja) actor to bed, that leaves them distracted enough to have a dagger slipped in their back, or their stuff stolen. Not as useful for dragging information out of them than having them hire you, though, so a bit hit and miss if you're trying for that.

The point was to not be noticed - wearing black pyjamas is not going to accomplish that except under very, VERY rare circumstances.

It IS possible that ninja sometimes wore black pyjamas when they were sneaking around at night, when visibility is already low, but generally 'looking like you belong there' was far more useful, even at night. (So far as I know, there's no actual contemporary reports of actual ninja doing so, but...well, if it was a 'sometimes' thing rather than SOP (as it was), and they didn't get caught while doing so, there wouldn't be, would there?)

So, yes, ninja were like spies today - who also don't typically skulk around in black pyjamas.
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Original fiction by Neko: Heroes of Angel City (now in convenient (and edited) ebook form!). Kuchisake.

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Re: 22-03-10 I, Tiffany Winters

Post by BobDole »

Right, I was simply pointing out where the black pajama thing came from - it was simply a disguise that was possible.

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Re: 22-03-10 I, Tiffany Winters

Post by Ravenhull »

Very good post, KN.

I have books for the Legend of the Five Rings RPG, and the one for the Scorpion Clan has a section on 'ninjas' In this, new trainees do get stuck with the classical 'Hollywood ninja' gear. What they aren't told is that this gear is training them in a backhanded way. The outfits encourage stealth, because everybody will pay attention to somebody in that getup... the egg bombs are increadibly fragile and will explode in your pouch if you aren't careful, so they have to be more agile to avoid that... the 'ninja-to' is so cheaply made that it is useless in a standup fight, the last thing a real 'ninja' needs to ever be in. Those who survive this (i.e., a 1st level character) are given the 'real' training. Some burn their junk, but others keep them as souvineers. Besides, since the rest of the Empire thinks that's what ninjas look like, they still do use them from time to time. So, a daimyo may find himself suddenly confronted by a pair of leaping pajama wearers throwing (useless) shiruken and escaping in a puff of smoke. But as he's being shuffled away by his guards, they brush by a servant who jabs a needle in his arm and wander's off before they even take notice. The sourcebook also has an excellent section detailing the poisons they use, detailing their effects and such. At the end of the section, it reveals that about 17 of the 20 'fantastic' poisons were real substances (i.e. arsnic, strictnyne...).

Okay, back to the regular scheduled snickering at Tiffany's doom. :p
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Re: 22-03-10 I, Tiffany Winters

Post by 'J' »

Yet still, I live...

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Re: 22-03-10 I, Tiffany Winters

Post by Kamino Neko »

Nah, she's not doomed. Just heading for a humiliation.

Unless she falls on her wakizaki...which is just totally her fault, carrying it unsheathed like that.
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Original fiction by Neko: Heroes of Angel City (now in convenient (and edited) ebook form!). Kuchisake.

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Re: 22-03-10 I, Tiffany Winters

Post by Azrael »

Kamino Neko wrote:So, yes, ninja were like spies today - who also don't typically skulk around in black pyjamas.

Just trench coats and dark sunglasses. Oh and tuxedoes, mustn't forget tuxedoes. :p
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Re: 22-03-10 I, Tiffany Winters

Post by Ravenhull »

It's rubber, her parents won't let her have sharp objects. ;)
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Re: 22-03-10 I, Tiffany Winters

Post by Potato_Imp »

Dirty n Evil wrote:I for one vote that Tiffany is a returning character... so long as she doesn't challenge any existing copyright issues, of course. ;) But it was quite seamless in my head that I almost immediately heard Tiffany's monologue being spoken in Sarah Michelle Gellar's voice. :))
I, the Potato Imp, also vote for Tiffany Winters as a recurring character. Too much plot potential when added to the mix for a simple one-shot.
What do you mean I'm delusional?! She placed that restraining order to express her joy about us getting married in an ironic avant-garde way!

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