18-05-11 trippy

[Artemisia]

J,

Even though we are integrated into society in various places, it is still nice to have someone who goes through the same thing we do. Being lesbian or gay, or bisexual or transgender or just flat out queer is not easy even in an accepting place. Heck, I live in Vermont, and it's nice to have groups here to hang out with, and Vermont's a pretty accepting place. It's nice to have someone who flat out accepts you without having to reroute their thinking through acceptance. It's just nice to know that we're not alone.

[jademushroom]

LOL

I'm glad we're so well accepted, but it means that it's hard to organize for certain issues. In the USA the civil rights, feminist, and student movements all made huge strides in their day. But they didn't get to address all their grievances... once a certain number of issues were addressed, people started leaving. Either felt that the movement would continue without their help, or just didn't see the importance in some of those grievances.

So like for example, Taiwan's greater acceptance of gays also means it's been pretty much impossible to pass gay marriage. There's a feeling of "oh we'll get it sooner or later", or "someone else will speak up". It also means it's kinda hard to socialize or find other gay ppl, cuz they dont meet up. Kinda like atheism way back when... it was really hard to find other atheists to connect with.

[Gil Hamilton]

Yeah, for sure. It's only in oppressive environment that "being gay" or "atheist" is a thing. I'm an atheist and there are certainly plenty of us around, but we aren't Atheists (capital A) because there isn't as strong an impetus to form a movement rather than being a collection of people who share the common trait that they don't believe in a god or gods but otherwise don't have much in common. Certainly there is discrimination in society against atheists, but it isn't organized and omnipresent as it can and has been in the past.

Not everyone feels this way of course. I had a surreal experience when I went solo hiking in Sabino Canyon. I had reached the base of the canyon having walked down most of it and was in a wooded area because I decided to detour to the Sabino Dam, where I understood there to be alot of wildlife (LOTS of birds out here, since Tucson is the southern most range of alot of N. American birds and the northern most range of alot of C. American birds). So I hiked along the trail and there were two guys on a bench drinking beer in the woods. That's not unusual, except one waved to me and went "BAD SATURDAY!" to me.

That was interesting enough to stop and talk, so I inquired what was bad about it. You see, this particular date was the Saturday before Easter and these gentlemen were Atheists. They were there wishing people a Bad Saturday, because they feel it should be the Atheist National Holiday on the premise that it's the single one day that every single person, believing or not, agrees that Jesus was dead. Then they asked me if I was religious and told them I wasn't, that I was an atheist and they had to shake my hand for my conviction and if I would join them for a drink. I had been walking for a while to the point that even their piss lager looked good, so I hung out with them for a bit.

In the process, I asked if they were part of a group and they told me that they were, but so far it was just the two of them. The were part of the Atheist Association of Tucson, but they left in disgust because they considered them to be all talk and no action. Not like them. Currently, they were petitioning Hallmark to print Bad Saturday cards and the government to make it a national holiday. I told them that I somehow think along the line they missed the point... that atheism isn't really a thing like Judaism or Christianity is, but they asserted that it must be a thing, because otherwise the believers would keep walking all over us. I didn't have much to say, because truth be told I don't feel that oppressed, but I wished them well. The one gave me his business and told me to contact them if I wanted to hang out and be Atheists with them, or if I needed a handyman. I still have the card.

What I think is that atheists have WON the big legal battles (unlike gay people who have a few to go). Now that needs to change is societal perception, which is slowly shifting in the right direction.

[Don Alexander]

Eh?

I never even considered "being Atheist" as "part of anything"...

I guess here in godless commie Europe, we do not make a big deal out of it.

[jademushroom]

that's the point i'm getting at. In the USA, the majority are not atheists, and are rather hostile to atheism in general. Thus, people join up to network and pass information.

[Azrael]

OMG! The Athiest Underground is gathering to bring down our Religions! To arms! To arms! Smite them with our Righteous Vengence!

[Artemisia]

Is that the same thing as fish fingers?

[Azrael]

No that would be Smelt.

[Artemisia]

So, then is it the same thing as trying to perm your hair when the snakes keep eating the rollers?

[Azrael]

Only if the hamster has a stainless-steel rollerball.

[mikbuster]

that's the point i'm getting at. In the USA, the majority are not atheists, and are rather hostile to atheism in general. Thus, people join up to network and pass information.

I guess I've never come across a point where atheism ever came up as being bad, good, or even that important, and I've lived most of my life in the conservative part of the country. The most it ever came to was laughing as others pointed out conflicting stories from the bible and watching religious people squirm because they didn't know how to respond. I have seen people that didn't understand atheism. My dad, for instance, can't understand why people would be offended by some things.

Is it really that different in other parts of the country? I've seen/read about how Iowa is somewhat progressive, despite its conservative reputation, but I've never really seen hostility towards atheism that wasn't as much about resisting change.

I guess living in smaller communities (moved to a town where my graduating class was about 150) may have sheltered me from more hostile areas, but I've always felt atheism was fairly normal for my generation and older generations were more religious. I had typed up a bit of background, but it's not important. Suffice to say, I'm only antagonistic towards people that are blindly religious, doing what they're told without thinking (goes for most things) and people that look to strike down religious people solely because they can't believe or see any benefits in religion.

[jademushroom]

Google the current situation on Damon Fowler, a high school student from Louisiana.
Schools routinely block secular student associations [like GSA's] as well

[Adamas]

In my school we had the FCA (Fellowship of Christian Athletes). I always wondered what they'd do if there was an openly Pagan or Atheist member on a sports team with them.

[Geeno]

that's the point i'm getting at. In the USA, the majority are not atheists, and are rather hostile to atheism in general. Thus, people join up to network and pass information.

I guess I've never come across a point where atheism ever came up as being bad, good, or even that important, and I've lived most of my life in the conservative part of the country. The most it ever came to was laughing as others pointed out conflicting stories from the bible and watching religious people squirm because they didn't know how to respond. I have seen people that didn't understand atheism. My dad, for instance, can't understand why people would be offended by some things.

Is it really that different in other parts of the country? I've seen/read about how Iowa is somewhat progressive, despite its conservative reputation, but I've never really seen hostility towards atheism that wasn't as much about resisting change.

I guess living in smaller communities (moved to a town where my graduating class was about 150) may have sheltered me from more hostile areas, but I've always felt atheism was fairly normal for my generation and older generations were more religious. I had typed up a bit of background, but it's not important. Suffice to say, I'm only antagonistic towards people that are blindly religious, doing what they're told without thinking (goes for most things) and people that look to strike down religious people solely because they can't believe or see any benefits in religion.

A good indication of the continuing bias against atheists in the US is the simple fact that there are NO elected officials at the federal level from ANY part of the country that do not publicly - usually, very publicly - profess some faith. Muslims are better accepted, at least there's one Muslim congressman.
If you keep your mouth shut, and let everyone spout their religiosity at you, you can get by, but say you're an atheist, and the game is up. There are broad stretches of the US where being called "godless" is still an insult that carries a lot of weight. In some parts atheists are regarded as an enemy of social order. The deeply religious in the US literally don't believe that you can be a good person without god in your life.

[jademushroom]

agreed. many people believe that religion is what gives people morals, therefore atheists have no morals.
I have a friend whose mother is a teacher. My friend is very outspoken in the atheist community at university; when that news hit their hometown, people started questioning their family. And found out the parents were skeptics as well. And actually tried to oust her mother from her teaching position since, as an atheist, she didn't have morals, and therefore should not teach.