Dangerously Chloe 4-04-19 All the Way

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Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 4-04-19 All the Way

Post by Gotoh » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:03 pm

brasca wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:53 pm
your opinions are inconsistent and designed around a preconceived belief that a particular character is terrible. You consider Prudence to be a centuries old angel and yet I remember you arguing about how Ginger and Jordan took advantage of Charity who by your present logic would be considerably older. As such she would be well over the legal drinking age.
There's two problems with your argument: 1. the victim's age is irrelevant when it comes to consent. So even if Charity is older than Ginger and Jordan, it wouldn't change the fact that they took advantage of her after getting her drunk. Which also covers point 2.) Fluffy is referring to the fact that they gave Charity alcohol without telling her first.



edit: Corrected post after reading Fluffy's further down. I forgot that Ginger and Jordan only took Charity out drinking.
Last edited by Gotoh on Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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LegendaryKroc
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 4-04-19 All the Way

Post by LegendaryKroc » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:23 pm

brasca wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:53 pm
Fluffy wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:03 am

It's a form of media that is for public consumption. People are allowed to give opinions on it - good or bad. And most times, if a child character in put into a situation they have no business being in - especially if it involves something of a sexual nature - people are going to be heavily critical of it; despite the fact it's a fictional character.
Except that your opinions are inconsistent and designed around a preconceived belief that a particular character is terrible. You consider Prudence to be a centuries old angel and yet I remember you arguing about how Ginger and Jordan took advantage of Charity who by your present logic would be considerably older. As such she would be well over the legal drinking age.

It's just like when I heard all the complaining about how Teddi was a terrible person for taking advantage of everyone affected by the pheromones and when she saved Autumn's life when she nearly overdosed she's a terrible person for interfering in the natural order of things.
You brandish that stick to hit us with but it's a flawed argument. Supernatural and Doctor Who have both done the "someone who was supposed to die didn't, and bad things happen as a result" high concept plotline before, ("Appointment In Samarra" and "Father's Day" for those interested in knowing more) and both handled it significantly better because they actually showed the consequences of saving the life of someone who should be dead. By contrast, Dave Lumsdon either got bored and decided to just abandon that subplot, got lazy and decided he would just give it a short quasi-wrapup, or, realising perhaps the can of worms he'd opened, chickened out and backed away from it. I don't know which of those explanations is correct, or indeed if any of them are, but I know that if you want to defend a moment of bad writing, you could do much better than bring up another one to make a point.

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Fluffy
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 4-04-19 All the Way

Post by Fluffy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:39 am

brasca wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:53 pm
Fluffy wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:03 am

It's a form of media that is for public consumption. People are allowed to give opinions on it - good or bad. And most times, if a child character in put into a situation they have no business being in - especially if it involves something of a sexual nature - people are going to be heavily critical of it; despite the fact it's a fictional character.
Except that your opinions are inconsistent and designed around a preconceived belief that a particular character is terrible. You consider Prudence to be a centuries old angel and yet I remember you arguing about how Ginger and Jordan took advantage of Charity who by your present logic would be considerably older. As such she would be well over the legal drinking age.
Yeah - near as I can recall, it had nothing to do with her age and more to do with 1) presenting Charity with hard lemonade because they didn't have the regular kind on hand (it's assumed they never warned her before she started drinking what they gave her) and 2) taking her to get a makeover - despite knowing full well she was utterly shitfaced because of the hard lemonade they gave her , thus in no condition to be making such drastic decisions.

It's by sheer dumb luck (i.e. - the author's discretion) that Charity approved of the look once she sobered up; but it still doesn't change the fact that Teddy left Charity's welfare in the hands of two morons.
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brasca
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 4-04-19 All the Way

Post by brasca » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:58 am

Gotoh wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:03 pm
brasca wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:53 pm
your opinions are inconsistent and designed around a preconceived belief that a particular character is terrible. You consider Prudence to be a centuries old angel and yet I remember you arguing about how Ginger and Jordan took advantage of Charity who by your present logic would be considerably older. As such she would be well over the legal drinking age.
There's two problems with your argument: 1. the victim's age is irrelevant when it comes to consent. So even if Charity is older than Ginger and Jordan, it wouldn't change the fact that they took advantage of her after getting her drunk. Which also covers point 2.) Fluffy is referring to the fact that they gave Charity alcohol without telling her first.



edit: Corrected post after reading Fluffy's further down. I forgot that Ginger and Jordan only took Charity out drinking.
And there are 2 problems with your argument: 1. You don't read what I wrote which is actually obvious when you have to go back and correct your own argument after reading Fluffy's. If Prudence is really centuries old then Charity would be even older. So if watching Chloe and Teddy have sex is somehow more acceptable for Prudence despite her childish mentality there is no reason to be upset about getting Charity drunk on account of her age because they are both older than they look. If Prudence is not then that is consistent with the earlier argument regarding Charity's night on the town, but you can't have it both ways.

2. Changing the subject. This is about the maturity of super natural characters and then you go off discussing whether they took advantage of Charity or not which was never proven and once she sobered up she liked her new look and didn't seem to hold a grudge against Ginger or Jordan later.

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 4-04-19 All the Way

Post by Gotoh » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:44 am

brasca wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:58 am
there are 2 problems with your argument: 1. You don't read what I wrote which is actually obvious when you have to go back and correct your own argument after reading Fluffy's.
I read your post and Fluffy's. The problem was that I forgot that they only took Charity out for drinks. I don't follow DC as closely as I did with the other two *C-verse comics, so my recollection of certain parts isn't always accurate.
brasca wrote:If Prudence is really centuries old then Charity would be even older. So if watching Chloe and Teddy have sex is somehow more acceptable for Prudence despite her childish mentality there is no reason to be upset about getting Charity drunk on account of her age because they are both older than they look.
There's reason to be upset in both cases. Abby's still a child, the inclusion of succubus DNA doesn't change that. There's no way to justify allowing a 12 year old to watch porn, especially when it involves her own brother.

Second, Ginger and Jordan gave Charity alcoholic beverages without telling her what was in it, which was negligent and thoughtless on their part. Charity's age is irrelevant. She didn't hold a gruge over it for the same reason Gary didn't hold a gruge against Amber for duping him into eating her out: it was an attempt to appease any posters that were upset by it. But it still doesn't justify what either of them did.

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 4-04-19 All the Way

Post by Dragon Paladin » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:31 am

brasca wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:58 am
Gotoh wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:03 pm
brasca wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:53 pm
your opinions are inconsistent and designed around a preconceived belief that a particular character is terrible. You consider Prudence to be a centuries old angel and yet I remember you arguing about how Ginger and Jordan took advantage of Charity who by your present logic would be considerably older. As such she would be well over the legal drinking age.
There's two problems with your argument: 1. the victim's age is irrelevant when it comes to consent. So even if Charity is older than Ginger and Jordan, it wouldn't change the fact that they took advantage of her after getting her drunk. Which also covers point 2.) Fluffy is referring to the fact that they gave Charity alcohol without telling her first.



edit: Corrected post after reading Fluffy's further down. I forgot that Ginger and Jordan only took Charity out drinking.
And there are 2 problems with your argument: 1. You don't read what I wrote which is actually obvious when you have to go back and correct your own argument after reading Fluffy's. If Prudence is really centuries old then Charity would be even older. So if watching Chloe and Teddy have sex is somehow more acceptable for Prudence despite her childish mentality there is no reason to be upset about getting Charity drunk on account of her age because they are both older than they look. If Prudence is not then that is consistent with the earlier argument regarding Charity's night on the town, but you can't have it both ways.

2. Changing the subject. This is about the maturity of super natural characters and then you go off discussing whether they took advantage of Charity or not which was never proven and once she sobered up she liked her new look and didn't seem to hold a grudge against Ginger or Jordan later.
By that logic, i should be able to slip liquor into a person's non-alcoholic drink to get them drunk. Who cares if they have a moral or medical reason for not touching alcohol? They're old enough, so i should be able to trick them into drinking, right? See how bad that sounds?
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renmei
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 4-04-19 All the Way

Post by renmei » Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:05 pm

Gotoh wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:44 am
Abby's still a child, the inclusion of succubus DNA doesn't change that. There's no way to justify allowing a 12 year old to watch porn, especially when it involves her own brother.
It doesn't have to be justified. It's in character. No one in that room (heck, or anyone in the entire comic) is a good role model, and Abby herself has repeatedly shown a huge interest in taboo things even if she doesn't realize what she's getting into. She clearly shows disgust at what she's watching, but this is the big event her brother went over the top for and it's with a girl that she admired enough to literally want to be. Would she run from the room in disgust, as Fluffy suggested? Maybe? But I don't think it's out of character for Abby.

Anyway, these aren't good people, and even if they could have been, that road was closed off the moment demons entered their lives and began corrupting them. Because that's what demons do. Chloe is in Ilsa's good graces specifically because she's a walking disaster that turned a two minute soul collection into whole bunch of good stuff for Hell. Immoral by our standards, great for damnation.

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 4-04-19 All the Way

Post by Gotoh » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:22 pm

renmei wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:05 pm
Anyway, these aren't good people, and even if they could have been, that road was closed off the moment demons entered their lives and began corrupting them. Because that's what demons do.
Sad, but true, especially this part.

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brasca
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 4-04-19 All the Way

Post by brasca » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:28 am

Gotoh wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:44 am
brasca wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:58 am
there are 2 problems with your argument: 1. You don't read what I wrote which is actually obvious when you have to go back and correct your own argument after reading Fluffy's.
I read your post and Fluffy's. The problem was that I forgot that they only took Charity out for drinks. I don't follow DC as closely as I did with the other two *C-verse comics, so my recollection of certain parts isn't always accurate.
brasca wrote:If Prudence is really centuries old then Charity would be even older. So if watching Chloe and Teddy have sex is somehow more acceptable for Prudence despite her childish mentality there is no reason to be upset about getting Charity drunk on account of her age because they are both older than they look.
There's reason to be upset in both cases. Abby's still a child, the inclusion of succubus DNA doesn't change that. There's no way to justify allowing a 12 year old to watch porn, especially when it involves her own brother.
Abby is not a human child anymore. She's more than just the hybrid Teddy was when he was injected with succubi DNA. She has been transformed into a succubus through a contract made with a demon. Aside from a soul and a human child upbringing prior to all this she's a young succubus now and this is how it's done. If anything this is probably one of the responsible things Pandora has done.
Gotoh wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:44 am
Second, Ginger and Jordan gave Charity alcoholic beverages without telling her what was in it, which was negligent and thoughtless on their part. Charity's age is irrelevant. She didn't hold a gruge over it for the same reason Gary didn't hold a gruge against Amber for duping him into eating her out: it was an attempt to appease any posters that were upset by it. But it still doesn't justify what either of them did.
This is another thing I find tiresome. Imagining things that never happened or cannot be conclusively proven. Fluffy thinks they got Charity drunk before the makeover when there is no proof of that. All we know is she was partying with the strippers and the next time Teddy saw her she looked different and was drunk. What we don't know is in what order did the last two things happen and still don't. And your assumption is that they duped Charity into drinking an alcoholic drink which is also based on nothing. She asked for a lemonade and they assumed she wanted a hard lemonade. I'm sure she could tell the difference, but kept drinking it because she liked it. Moreover, why are they negligent and thoughtless just because they assumed she wanted a hard lemonade? She's like one of those repressed people who cuts loose. They should know she was celebrating with them and wanted to change her look so it seems fairly reasonable that when they went to a bar she would want a hard lemonade and not a soft drink.

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Fluffy
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 4-04-19 All the Way

Post by Fluffy » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:42 am

brasca wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:28 am
Abby is not a human child anymore. She's more than just the hybrid Teddy was when he was injected with succubi DNA. She has been transformed into a succubus through a contract made with a demon. Aside from a soul and a human child upbringing prior to all this she's a young succubus now and this is how it's done. If anything this is probably one of the responsible things Pandora has done.
Much like Teddy, Abby was magically imbued with succubus/ecoto blood and only took on the appearance of a succubus (seeing as she was already a girl). That's the extent of it. For all anyone knows, Abby had all those succubus powers at her disposal - they were just locked away because she hadn't gone through puberty yet (which would explain why Teddy - who's already gone through puberty - was able to excrete succubus pheromones while Abby could do nothing).

If you look back on what Isla offered her; Ilsa never offered to turn her into a real succubus - she only offered to unlock the succubus powers that Abby imbued herself with and enrollment at the school. It's just assumed that Abby is a full blood succubus because of how she transformed after signing the contract. Also, in most religions, demons don't tend to have souls; if Abby still has hers, she's still human, despite how she looks.
brasca wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:28 am
Gotoh wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:44 am
Second, Ginger and Jordan gave Charity alcoholic beverages without telling her what was in it, which was negligent and thoughtless on their part. Charity's age is irrelevant. She didn't hold a gruge over it for the same reason Gary didn't hold a gruge against Amber for duping him into eating her out: it was an attempt to appease any posters that were upset by it. But it still doesn't justify what either of them did.
This is another thing I find tiresome. Imagining things that never happened or cannot be conclusively proven. Fluffy thinks they got Charity drunk before the makeover when there is no proof of that. All we know is she was partying with the strippers and the next time Teddy saw her she looked different and was drunk. What we don't know is in what order did the last two things happen and still don't. And your assumption is that they duped Charity into drinking an alcoholic drink which is also based on nothing. She asked for a lemonade and they assumed she wanted a hard lemonade. I'm sure she could tell the difference, but kept drinking it because she liked it. Moreover, why are they negligent and thoughtless just because they assumed she wanted a hard lemonade? She's like one of those repressed people who cuts loose. They should know she was celebrating with them and wanted to change her look so it seems fairly reasonable that when they went to a bar she would want a hard lemonade and not a soft drink.
And yet, here you are - doing the exact same thing that you accuse the rest of us of doing; speculating how things actually went down based on nothing more than your own head canon/assumptions.

How is it that your assumptions are accurate/more probable; while everyone else is wrong? Genuinely curious here.
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Cortez
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 4-04-19 All the Way

Post by Cortez » Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:16 am

brasca wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:28 am

Abby is not a human child anymore.
But she is still a child.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 4-04-19 All the Way

Post by dmra » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:28 am

For what it's worth this is the strip where they talk about the lemonade/hard lemonade thing. People can decide for themselves what was likely to have happened and if they gave Charity alcohol without her knowing or not.

http://www.dangerouslychloe.com/strips-dc/makeover

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Fluffy
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 4-04-19 All the Way

Post by Fluffy » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:29 pm

dmra wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:28 am
For what it's worth this is the strip where they talk about the lemonade/hard lemonade thing. People can decide for themselves what was likely to have happened and if they gave Charity alcohol without her knowing or not.

http://www.dangerouslychloe.com/strips-dc/makeover
Not to mention, if the makeover happened while Charity was sober; she wouldn't have been shocked by how she looked the next morning.

As far as Ginger and Jordan's actions go (regarding giving Charity the hard stuff); they don't know this woman from a hole in the ground - all they know is that she's a friend of Teddi's and were to show her a good time.

Looking back on the dialogue - it's confirmed that they knew that Charity only wanted regular lemonade ('she just wanted lemonade); but, they gave her the hard stuff because that's all they had ('the bar only had the hard kind; so...').

In other words - canonically speaking - these two dunderheads knowingly gave someone who was looking for a non alcoholic beverage alcohol; and it's all played for the LOLs.

This is just the Gary on a plane incident all over again - except while Senna was clueless that Gary wanted a non alcoholic beverage, Jordan and Ginger actively disregarded Charity's request for a virgin drink. Was it done with malicious intent? No. It was just incredibly thoughtless on their part.
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Zellgato
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 4-04-19 All the Way

Post by Zellgato » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:26 pm

as a complet divergence
that link the Gary on the plane.
now I want to read early Ma3 again.
and probably eerie cuties.
guess i'll do that on breaks this week~

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LegendaryKroc
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 4-04-19 All the Way

Post by LegendaryKroc » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:11 am

Fluffy wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:42 am
brasca wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:28 am
Abby is not a human child anymore. She's more than just the hybrid Teddy was when he was injected with succubi DNA. She has been transformed into a succubus through a contract made with a demon. Aside from a soul and a human child upbringing prior to all this she's a young succubus now and this is how it's done. If anything this is probably one of the responsible things Pandora has done.
Much like Teddy, Abby was magically imbued with succubus/ecoto blood and only took on the appearance of a succubus (seeing as she was already a girl). That's the extent of it. For all anyone knows, Abby had all those succubus powers at her disposal - they were just locked away because she hadn't gone through puberty yet (which would explain why Teddy - who's already gone through puberty - was able to excrete succubus pheromones while Abby could do nothing).

If you look back on what Isla offered her; Ilsa never offered to turn her into a real succubus - she only offered to unlock the succubus powers that Abby imbued herself with and enrollment at the school. It's just assumed that Abby is a full blood succubus because of how she transformed after signing the contract. Also, in most religions, demons don't tend to have souls; if Abby still has hers, she's still human, despite how she looks.
brasca wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:28 am
Gotoh wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:44 am
Second, Ginger and Jordan gave Charity alcoholic beverages without telling her what was in it, which was negligent and thoughtless on their part. Charity's age is irrelevant. She didn't hold a gruge over it for the same reason Gary didn't hold a gruge against Amber for duping him into eating her out: it was an attempt to appease any posters that were upset by it. But it still doesn't justify what either of them did.
This is another thing I find tiresome. Imagining things that never happened or cannot be conclusively proven. Fluffy thinks they got Charity drunk before the makeover when there is no proof of that. All we know is she was partying with the strippers and the next time Teddy saw her she looked different and was drunk. What we don't know is in what order did the last two things happen and still don't. And your assumption is that they duped Charity into drinking an alcoholic drink which is also based on nothing. She asked for a lemonade and they assumed she wanted a hard lemonade. I'm sure she could tell the difference, but kept drinking it because she liked it. Moreover, why are they negligent and thoughtless just because they assumed she wanted a hard lemonade? She's like one of those repressed people who cuts loose. They should know she was celebrating with them and wanted to change her look so it seems fairly reasonable that when they went to a bar she would want a hard lemonade and not a soft drink.
And yet, here you are - doing the exact same thing that you accuse the rest of us of doing; speculating how things actually went down based on nothing more than your own head canon/assumptions.

How is it that your assumptions are accurate/more probable; while everyone else is wrong? Genuinely curious here.
Near as I can tell it's because brasca accuses us of always making worst case scenario assumptions about narrative ambiguities while s/he gives the main cast a massive benefit of the doubt about everything.

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