Dangerously Chloe 18-03-19 A Mindless Slave

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Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 18-03-19 A Mindless Slave

Post by Gotoh » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:24 pm

joe england wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:04 am
even if Teddy's omnipotent, I doubt that their first priority on being freed would be to rush back to Hell and murder Ilsa. Chloe and Naomi should be eager to attempt to communicate with Teddy rather than assuming that he's a maniac who can't be let off a leash for even a moment
We know he isn't omnipotent. If he were, he'd be able to free himself and void both his and Abby's contracts with a thought.

Second, if you witnessed a literal god fly of the handle and try to wipe someone from existence, would you really take a chance on letting them go, knowing what they might do, or that you may not be lucky enough to stop them a second time? I wouldn't. Not until there was a way to de-power him first, or unless there was a guaranteed way to keep him in check, in case of emergency.
joe england wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:04 am
Teddy's pulled some crap, but they're still a teenager. I'm willing to be a little forgiving. At the end of the day, they've still proven themselves to be admirably loyal to the folks they care about. Helping people is more important to them than hurting people. So you can say they're no hero, but they're not actively malicious.
Acting maliciously isn't the issue, he's still commited illegal (breaking and entering, attempted theft, using a fake ID, underaged stripping) and immoral acts (willfully taking advantage of girls whom he knows are under supernatural influence, and leading those jocks on without telling them what he was really setting them up for, and attempted murder).

Objectively speaking, he's become more of a villain than Cerise at this point, and that's saying something when someone can make her seem 'not-so-bad' by comparison. Ana and Hecate are the only ones who can top him, in terms of heinous acts commited.

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MissMadness
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 18-03-19 A Mindless Slave

Post by MissMadness » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:02 pm

I'm going to ignore whats going on above because i'm not unpacking that. Naomi is objectively the best person to go to for this situation even if Chloe wasn't fully aware of what she's accomplished. Honestly if it wasn't her for "Kaiba driven everything is science" thing she's probably have a full paid scholarship to Artemis at this point.

BioYuGi
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 18-03-19 A Mindless Slave

Post by BioYuGi » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:16 am

So, just some of the many options she could have at least attempted:
"Teddy, I order you to give up your godhood."
"I order you to act like Teddy did before I entered his life."
"I order you to use your god powers to undo the last X weeks."
"I order you to use your omnipotence to tell me the best solution to this problem."
"I order you to promise not to kill Ilsa if I remove your collar."
"I order you to turn me into a human, not a succubus."
"I order you to turn Abby back into a human."
There's many more, I'm sure.

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Milnoc
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 18-03-19 A Mindless Slave

Post by Milnoc » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:27 am

Valkog wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:52 pm
lordoffiling wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:21 pm
It’s like what happens when you point a camera at its own monitor, it just loops into infinity.
That would make for a pretty rad TV intro, though.
Someone's been watching Classic Doctor Who! :D

joe england
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 18-03-19 A Mindless Slave

Post by joe england » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:56 am

Gotoh wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:24 pm
Acting maliciously isn't the issue, he's still commited illegal (breaking and entering, attempted theft, using a fake ID, underaged stripping) and immoral acts (willfully taking advantage of girls whom he knows are under supernatural influence, and leading those jocks on without telling them what he was really setting them up for, and attempted murder).

Objectively speaking, he's become more of a villain than Cerise at this point, and that's saying something when someone can make her seem 'not-so-bad' by comparison. Ana and Hecate are the only ones who can top him, in terms of heinous acts commited.
You're right. When you put it that way, in real life that stuff would be hard to ever forgive. I'm sure many frat boys have excused bad behavior by saying they were "just kids" at the time. I was wrong to use Teddy's youth as an excuse, but it's easy to lose track of all the stuff they've done.

So I'll say that my willingness to keep a candle lit for Teddy isn't just because they're a teenager, but because this is a comic, a fantasy, where the characters' souls are laid bare. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, and we know that Teddy and Chloe at least had those good intentions, however inconsiderate, thoughtless, or destructive they may have been when they lost their way. It seems clear that it was the goal of the authors to depict these protagonists as genuinely good people at heart, and if the writing failed in that regard it doesn't mean there isn't still hope for some kind of redemption.

This reminds me of a storyline in The Avengers way back in 1980 that had Carol Danvers, Ms. Marvel (now Captain Marvel) mysteriously impregnated. The baby grew rapidly and revealed itself to be an otherworldly being who had abducted Ms. Marvel and brainwashed her into making love to him so she could give birth to his reincarnated form. They declared their love for one another and traipsed into his home dimension hand in hand.

People were justifiably outraged. The whole affair was disgusting on a variety of levels. Chris Claremont later addressed the issue by having Carol return and scold the Avengers for just standing by and letting her go when she CLEARLY wasn't in her right mind at the time. The Avengers hung their heads in shame that day, and folks pretty much gave up on Marcus.

But like I said, it's not that I'm expecting Teddy to be redeemed, it's that I'm hoping they'll be redeemed. I don't want for them to be another "Marcus". I want for the authors to turn things around in this case. You're right to remember all the wrong things that Teddy's done. But Teddy and Chloe have both done bad things, it's something they have in common, and I want to believe that they can both rise above their misdeeds. They're both still not really bad people. At least, I don't think that the writers intend for them to be.

Again, you're right - Teddy should be held accountable for the liberties they've taken with people. They seem to have done those things without fully understanding the lines they were crossing. And I think that examining all that could be crucial to them now, leading to a revelation concerning their godly condition. Both Teddy and Chloe can see the impact that power has on people, how it hurts themselves as well as others. This could be what enables Teddy to come to grips, helping him to grow up and handle their power responsibly, and then make amends. And with their abilities they could shield Chloe from Hell's requirements, enabling her to be a better person as well without her demonic superiors constantly forcing her hands.

Teddy and Chloe have both been "villains", either through the corruption of power or from outside pressure. I want for them to be free, not just to fulfill their desires but to become the kinds of protagonists that I think the writers want for us to see them as.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 18-03-19 A Mindless Slave

Post by dmra » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:41 am

I think this is where the decision to "disappear" Chloe from her own comic has come back to bite the authors.

Firstly, because we haven't seen Chloe and Teddy interacting much recently it makes the relationship between them seem less important or meaningful and more forced for the point of the story.

Secondly because we never got to see much about what how Chloe was like in the home. She kept making little cameos as a housewife/surrogate mother but nothing sustained or substantial. So, for instance, apart from the "the talk" episode we never really saw anything about her relationship with Abby.

As a result lots of chances to show Chloe sympathetically and not getting things wrong were missed in favour of the never ending sequences of Teddi getting her rocks off with different people. And no matter how much the writer may have thought they were saying "he really cares for Chloe", "he's doing it for Chloe" that was hardly the impression it was giving.

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lordoffiling
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 18-03-19 A Mindless Slave

Post by lordoffiling » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:33 am

BioYuGi wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:16 am
So, just some of the many options she could have at least attempted:
"Teddy, I order you to give up your godhood."
"I order you to act like Teddy did before I entered his life."
"I order you to use your god powers to undo the last X weeks."
"I order you to use your omnipotence to tell me the best solution to this problem."
"I order you to promise not to kill Ilsa if I remove your collar."
"I order you to turn me into a human, not a succubus."
"I order you to turn Abby back into a human."
There's many more, I'm sure.
You can’t just throw out orders willy-nilly with this collar. A careless order is what broke Ted’s brain in the first place, and it has already been established that giving someone an order they can’t follow could result in their gruesome death. (Chloe was really surprised when Lucretia’s head didn’t explode, if you’ll recall.)

So, doing trial-and-error with this collar is a non-starter. There’s a god in this thing. She orders him to transform Abby back into a human, for example, he’s going to do exactly that. Even if it kills her.
"Rather than simply enjoying these comics, we log in to these forums to argue about them. [...] We are some strange people, and I guess we have nothing better to do." - lordoffiling

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FuzzyFace
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 18-03-19 A Mindless Slave

Post by FuzzyFace » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:12 pm

joe england wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:56 am
This reminds me of a storyline in The Avengers way back in 1980 that had Carol Danvers, Ms. Marvel (now Captain Marvel) mysteriously impregnated. The baby grew rapidly and revealed itself to be an otherworldly being who had abducted Ms. Marvel and brainwashed her into making love to him so she could give birth to his reincarnated form. They declared their love for one another and traipsed into his home dimension hand in hand.

People were justifiably outraged. The whole affair was disgusting on a variety of levels. Chris Claremont later addressed the issue by having Carol return and scold the Avengers for just standing by and letting her go when she CLEARLY wasn't in her right mind at the time. The Avengers hung their heads in shame that day, and folks pretty much gave up on Marcus.
Who is Marcus?

BioYuGi
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 18-03-19 A Mindless Slave

Post by BioYuGi » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:23 pm

The guy who brainwashed and raped Captain Marvel.

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brasca
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 18-03-19 A Mindless Slave

Post by brasca » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:57 pm

Gotoh wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:24 pm
joe england wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:04 am
Teddy's pulled some crap, but they're still a teenager. I'm willing to be a little forgiving. At the end of the day, they've still proven themselves to be admirably loyal to the folks they care about. Helping people is more important to them than hurting people. So you can say they're no hero, but they're not actively malicious.
Acting maliciously isn't the issue, he's still commited illegal (breaking and entering, attempted theft, using a fake ID, underaged stripping) and immoral acts (willfully taking advantage of girls whom he knows are under supernatural influence, and leading those jocks on without telling them what he was really setting them up for, and attempted murder).

Objectively speaking, he's become more of a villain than Cerise at this point, and that's saying something when someone can make her seem 'not-so-bad' by comparison. Ana and Hecate are the only ones who can top him, in terms of heinous acts commited.
Here we go again. 8-|
Let's review those charges:
1. Breaking and entering. Yes, but that's certainly not the worst thing a teenager could do.
2. Attempted theft. What did he steal? He only broke into the museum to get a closer look at an antique clock. He never took a thing.
3. Using a fake ID. Again. Not the worst thing a teenager could be doing.
4. Underage stripping. That's a liability for the club yes, but beyond that what Teddy does with their body is their choice.
5. Taking advantage of girls whom he knows are under supernatural influence. I will continue to argue that Teddy was not in their right mind at the time seeing as how they were altered with succubi blood and reaper ectoplasm. Human Teddy's reaction to Naomi joining him in the shower is much different than Daisy which happened after the transformation. In fact charges 3 and 4 were post transformation so the old Teddy might not have done things the same way. As is the 6th charge.
6. Leading those jocks on. Unlike Pandora Teddy wanted to avoid killing people and tried to find someone who could actually do the deed and survive. While it's still reckless I doubt the winner of the contest would feel that way later.

Yes this journey has certainly skewed Teddy's moral compass, but you seriously think they are worse than Cerise? She tried to kill two of her childhood friends, her girlfriend, and 6 others just so she could be the most popular girl in school. You might argue that being was under the influence of essence of Hekate is no different than Teddy's demonic infusion, but at least they had the restraint to avoid killing people while on the misguided mission to save Chloe. Even torturing Ilsa wasn't about getting revenge for everything she was responsbile for. It was never about getting their jollies torturing a demon. Ilsa could've avoided potential molecular dismemberment if she just tore up the contract, but she refused.

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 18-03-19 A Mindless Slave

Post by Gotoh » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:11 pm

brasca wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:57 pm
Let's review those charges:
1. Breaking and entering. Yes, but that's certainly not the worst thing a teenager could do.
That's no excuse. It's still a crime that's punishable by law even if it's done by a minor, or a first-time offender.
brasca wrote:2. Attempted theft. What did he steal? He only broke into the museum to get a closer look at an antique clock. He never took a thing.
If that was all he wanted, he could've done that during regular viewing hours. But he chose to break in after hours, which implies attempted theft.
brasca wrote:3. Using a fake ID. Again. Not the worst thing a teenager could be doing.
Still not an excuse and still punishable by law.
grasca wrote:4. Underage stripping. That's a liability for the club yes, but beyond that what Teddy does with their body is their choice.
Teddy is a minor which makes it illegal for him to work there, which he's aware of, which is why he resorted to a fake ID, which is also illegal. In a realistic setting, Teddy and the club owner would both be facing charges if local PD found out.
brasca wrote:5. Taking advantage of girls whom he knows are under supernatural influence. I will continue to argue that Teddy was not in their right mind at the time seeing as how they were altered with succubi blood and reaper ectoplasm.
There's no evidence of Teddy's mind being altered, especially since we saw him clearly testing the limits of his control over Daisy before he realized she was under compulsion. We also saw the minds of those jocks being altered when Teddy walked by them.
brasca wrote:6. Leading those jocks on. Unlike Pandora Teddy wanted to avoid killing people and tried to find someone who could actually do the deed and survive.
Chloe and Pandora both warned Teddy that it wouldn't work. Which he should've known since he nearly died from a simple kiss. Teddy continued with the auditions anyway.
brasca wrote:this journey has certainly skewed Teddy's moral compass, but you seriously think they are worse than Cerise?
Cerise tried to murder 9 girls (including her two best friends) for the sake of a popularity grab.

Teddy has willfully broken the law several times, including taking advantage of girls whom he knows wouldn't sleep with him under normal circumstances and setting someone up to be killed in his place by getting them to punch Chloe's v-card for him. He also tried to kill Ilsa because he was angry. Anger doesn't justify murder.

So, given what we've seen of both characters, yes. He's objectively worse than Cerise.

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 18-03-19 A Mindless Slave

Post by BlairFan » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:25 pm

Naomi looks so much better than she used to. Hmm, I wonder why... Wait! I know why! She wears less clothing than she used to!
:) ;)

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 18-03-19 A Mindless Slave

Post by vampire hunter D » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:15 am

We've seen her naked plenty though
Pointless arguing is one of the three pillars upon which the Internet is built. The other two are of course cat pictures and porn.

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brasca
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 18-03-19 A Mindless Slave

Post by brasca » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:38 am

Gotoh wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:11 pm
brasca wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:57 pm
Let's review those charges:
1. Breaking and entering. Yes, but that's certainly not the worst thing a teenager could do.
That's no excuse. It's still a crime that's punishable by law even if it's done by a minor, or a first-time offender.
Yes, it's illegal so is underage drinking, but it's hardly a moral transgression that would lower my opinion of him.
Gotoh wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:11 pm
brasca wrote:2. Attempted theft. What did he steal? He only broke into the museum to get a closer look at an antique clock. He never took a thing.
If that was all he wanted, he could've done that during regular viewing hours. But he chose to break in after hours, which implies attempted theft.
To you maybe, but you seem to believe what you want to believe without a lot of evidence.
Gotoh wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:11 pm
brasca wrote:3. Using a fake ID. Again. Not the worst thing a teenager could be doing.
Still not an excuse and still punishable by law.
And again it's not a serious moral transgression just like breaking and entering and plenty of teenagers have done it.
Gotoh wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:11 pm
grasca wrote:4. Underage stripping. That's a liability for the club yes, but beyond that what Teddy does with their body is their choice.
Teddy is a minor which makes it illegal for him to work there, which he's aware of, which is why he resorted to a fake ID, which is also illegal. In a realistic setting, Teddy and the club owner would both be facing charges if local PD found out.
And again I'm not arguing about the legality of it. Teddi's coworkers would be out of their jobs if the club got shut down so Teddi was putting her interests ahead of others, but the rules that prohibit hiring underage people is a moral dilmena itself. Such laws are designed to protect people under a set age from being exploited and yet Teddi, the underaged, is defying this law for the sake of having an income. How can Teddi be morally or legally responsible for breaking a law designed to protect people like her because they are deemed to young to think for themselves?
Gotoh wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:11 pm
brasca wrote:5. Taking advantage of girls whom he knows are under supernatural influence. I will continue to argue that Teddy was not in their right mind at the time seeing as how they were altered with succubi blood and reaper ectoplasm.
There's no evidence of Teddy's mind being altered, especially since we saw him clearly testing the limits of his control over Daisy before he realized she was under compulsion. We also saw the minds of those jocks being altered when Teddy walked by them.
You think Teddy was there to steal something from the museum based on no evidence yet you question mine. Teddi knew something was up because Teddy's analytical mind is still there, however, I think the physiological change skewed her thinking because her conclusion was to let all those girls have their way with her whereas before Teddy tried to run away from Naomi when she was under the influence of Golden Wings. It's not conclusive, but you can't prove otherwise so this is going to be something everyone will be squabbling over until Dave Lumsdon tells us otherwise and even then half the people here will probably claim he's making that up just so his protagonist looks good.
Gotoh wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:11 pm
brasca wrote:6. Leading those jocks on. Unlike Pandora Teddy wanted to avoid killing people and tried to find someone who could actually do the deed and survive.
Chloe and Pandora both warned Teddy that it wouldn't work. Which he should've known since he nearly died from a simple kiss. Teddy continued with the auditions anyway.
It's been established that Teddy is not a jock so he knew he and boys like him wouldn't have what it takes to survive a tumble with Chloe, but stronger boys could. And throughout that arc Chloe never said anything about what Teddi was doing and Pandora wanted to manipulate her to date the hottest guys because she found it all very amusing and gratifying. At no time did Pandora ever try to get Teddi to see out some cryptids or espers who could do the deed like Dio or Ash respectively. And this again brings up my hypothesis about how being a hybrid skewed her thinking to find a solution that has the most potential for sexual gratification.
Gotoh wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:11 pm
brasca wrote:this journey has certainly skewed Teddy's moral compass, but you seriously think they are worse than Cerise?
Cerise tried to murder 9 girls (including her two best friends) for the sake of a popularity grab.

Teddy has willfully broken the law several times, including taking advantage of girls whom he knows wouldn't sleep with him under normal circumstances and setting someone up to be killed in his place by getting them to punch Chloe's v-card for him. He also tried to kill Ilsa because he was angry. Anger doesn't justify murder.

So, given what we've seen of both characters, yes. He's objectively worse than Cerise.
After all that I don't understand how you could come to that conclusion. Cerise tried to kill 9 people and enthrall her school all for the sake of popularity. Teddy on this misguided journey has made some mistakes largerly because of supernatural alteration, but all the while with a heart in the right place. Teddy wanted to save Chloe and then nullify the contract that turned Abby into the succubus and the only person that was almost killed was Ilsa, a succubus who has no redeeming qualities and responsible for so much of what transpired. Even death has no finality since Teddy could have resurrected her.

Based on your flimsy evidence that ranges from mischievous teenage activities to supernatural altered states Teddy is not objectively worse than Cerise. Although I find it strange that you would take her side since she tried to murder your favorite character Faith who you have bent over backwards to justify.

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 18-03-19 A Mindless Slave

Post by Gotoh » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:07 pm

@brasca: i find it funny that you call my evidence "flimsy" despite linking to several examples fom the comic that shows everything I'd said. Whereas all you've done is continue to try to downplay and handwave everything Teddy's done without any evidence at all.

Second: I'm not taking Cerise or Teddy's side. I'm saying they're both wrong for the things they've done.

So why is Teddy objectively worse? Because Cerise is a 1-time felon, Teddy is a repeat offender. Under the law, who do you think would get the harsher sentence? It isn't that hard to figure out.

Lastly, Teddy didn't have to be a jock to understand why his plan was doomed to fail. Pandora said it would take someone with legendary resilience to survive punching a succubus' v-card. Common sense should've told him that a highschool jock wasn't gonna cut it. The closest you'd get would be Faith and Ash, except Teddy doesn't know about either of them. Chloe, on the other hand, met one of them... then seemingly forgot all about it.

So regardless of what he thought, whoever he chose was going to die. Chloe and Pandora told him twice.

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