Dangerously Chloe 1-10-18 Craving for Men

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Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 1-10-18 Craving for Men

Post by Gotoh » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:07 pm

dmra wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:41 pm
Yes but then look at Layla's condition later when she was alone with Brooke. She's talking calmly and is showing no signs at all of distress. So again where was the urgency and where was the emergency. It looks to me like there was plenty of time to get proper help so nothing Brooke did was necessary.
This part of your argument makes absolutely no sense.

Back in highschool there was a time I became dehydrated to the point of passing out on the sidewalk, but I remained cognizant the entire time. It took about 10 min. for EMS to arrive and another 15 to get to the hospital, due to traffic. During that time, I was able to answer questions from the ambulance team about what'd happened, my medical history, and who my emergency contacts were. Based on your logic, my condition wasn't that serious since I was able to do that for 15 min., so I guess EMS should've figured 'he's fine' and left me on the side of the road, even though I was lightheaded, nauseous, and too weak to move on my own (all symptoms of extreme dehydration).

So we're clear: That isn't sarcasm. It's meant to show why your argument doesn't hold water. People in worse condition than I was, or Layla's, have been able to move (with assistance) and explain what's happened to them, before getting treatment.
dmra wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:41 pm
You said that Brooke's actions didn't effect her character in your eyes because nothing came from them.
Yes. A relatively minor infraction does not suddenly make her a horrible person. Plus, she got her comeuppance immediately after Layla regained control of her psyche. Layla called her out for going along with Quintessa's intentions and she didn't get the vampire nookie Quintessa had tempted her with. So the matter's already been settled.
dmra wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:41 pm
Yet you think Chloe is a big sinner while as far as you're concerned Brooke gets a free pass because the ritual was interrupted.
No (see: previous section).

Chloe's case is different. Regardless of her intentions, she has ruined several peoplels lives, including tearing a family apart. That's long-term consequences. It's the reason Slash-Stab decided to let her stay where she is.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 1-10-18 Craving for Men

Post by dmra » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:19 pm

For Pete's sake. Layla attends a school for monsters. They presumably have some kind of medical aid program which not only caters for the normal school type accidents but also for species specific emergencies. How unlikely it is that Layla was the first vampire at the school who needed blood quickly? How likely is it that the school infirmary has a fridge and in that fridge it contains blood?

And we didn't need to see Layla moving only with assistance. We saw her looking faint and feverish in one set of panels and then appearing perfectly healthy with no sign of any significant impairment in the next. Plenty of time to get her to a proper person to help her.

And to show that your argument doesn't hold water (pun unintended) for your story about dehydration to match the Lalya/Brooke scenario you'd have been happy if instead of calling for the EMS and taking you to hospital a fellow student had taken it upon themselves to diagnose you and give you a glass of water because you'd said you were thirsty.

Right and you think that it's sufficient punishment for somebody who failed to do something horrible to get one snarky comment and not get the nookie she was promised. In which case I hope you never become a judge because you'll be letting off people who plans to rob a abnk were foiled with a stern telling off. Because after all they were foiled so what harm did they do and not getting the money they hoped to is surely more than punishment enough.

And the free pass I was referring to wasn't Brooke's lack of proper punishment for agreeing to do something bloody horrible it was your argument that what she did is more than made up for by all the good things she's done. Because you said you didn't think that offence was enough to change your view that Brooke is a decent honourable character. Rather than mine that she is a much more nuanced character than your white washing of the "let's replace Kade's soul and in return I'll have sex with you incident" would ever allow.

And on the final bit. Do you only ever judge people by the consequences of their actions and not their intentions? Chloe means no harm but still screws things up accidentally and you think she's an awful person. Brooke meant actual harm but you think that's unimportant when judging her character because nothing bad ultimately happened despite Brooke wanting it to.

And if you really can't see the difference between those two situations then there really is no point continuing this conversation.

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 1-10-18 Craving for Men

Post by Gotoh » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:12 pm

@dmra: Layla didn't need a nurse, all she needed was a the vampiric equivalent of a pick-me-up. Brooke volunteered to be the donor, so the issue was resolved. They went to a private spot, to avoid trouble with the teachers, since that's exactly what happened the one time Layla got caught feeding on another student. Just as she took care not to get blood on Brooke's uniform for the same reason.

Nor did Brooke want anything to happen to Kade, it was Quintessa's idea, not hers. Going along with something doesn't necessarily mean you're okay with it. A lot of times they're not, but my feel thety don't have a choice, or they may stand to gain something from it if they do.

Case in point: Tiff didn't trust Faith with the wand, but Faith was still able to change Tiff's mind with a compelling argument (2nd to last panel ). Tiff still didn't trust her at that time, but she chose to go along with what Faith had in mind, because she believed it would benefit all parties involved.

Brooke did it for selfish reasons, but she wasn't standing there gleefully plotting to harm Kade. She did it because she saw an opportunity to be with her crush, and she took it. Like I said, she isn't perfect, much less a paragon. I never said she was.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 1-10-18 Craving for Men

Post by dmra » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:35 pm

Gotoh wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:12 pm
@dmra: Layla didn't need a nurse, all she needed was a the vampiric equivalent of a pick-me-up.

Nor did Brooke want anything to happen to Kade, it was Quintessa's idea, not hers. Going along with something doesn't necessarily mean you're okay with it. A lot of times they're not, but my feel thety don't have a choice, or they may stand to gain something from it if they do.

Brooke did it for selfish reasons, but she wasn't standing there gleefully plotting to harm Kade. She did it because she saw an opportunity to be with her crush, and she took it. Like I said, she isn't perfect, much less a paragon. I never said she was.
If all Layla needed was a vampiric "pick me up" then what the hell was the emergency? You can't have it both ways. You compared Layla's plight to yours when you needed professional help to get you to hospital but suddenly Layla doesn't even need the school nurse.

If Brooke didn't want anything to happen to Kade she would have tried to stop Quintessa not help her. Ace/Blair was there to assist but instead she chose to tie him up to stop him interfering in the ritual. For somebody who didn't want to help she sure did a lot to make herself useful.

And nobody has ever claimed Brooke actively plotted to harm Kade. All that Fluffy and I have said is that she willingly went along with Quintessa's plan when she was promised sexual favours in return. Which you may think is a fairly minor thing to do but to me it's a pretty big stain on her character.

And finally this whole conversation started when you contrasted Brooke to Chloe saying that one had done only mischief while the other had done only good. When it was pointed out to you that Brooke had in fact done something pretty damn horrible you excused her. First because nothing bad happened and then because she'd been "punished" by being told off and not getting to sleep with her crush.

I get it. You like Brooke. That's understandable I like Brooke too. But the Brooke I like isn't a one dimensional do-gooder she's somebody with some very serious faults who makes horrible mistakes.

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 1-10-18 Craving for Men

Post by Gotoh » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:39 am

dmra wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:35 pm
If all Layla needed was a vampiric "pick me up" then what the hell was the emergency? You can't have it both ways. You compared Layla's plight to yours when you needed professional help to get you to hospital but suddenly Layla doesn't even need the school nurse.

Is your thinking really that binary? There is such as thing as "middle-ground".

It was an emergency situation that only required a simple solution. The same way I was told to keep more fluids in my system and to avoid going out in extreme temperatures.
dmra wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:35 pm
All that Fluffy and I have said is that she willingly went along with Quintessa's plan when she was promised sexual favours in return. Which you may think is a fairly minor thing to do but to me it's a pretty big stain on her character.
Considering all the acts we've seen committed, from attempted mass murder, to wholesale slaughter, or toying with someone's emotions, or anything else that might be traumatizing, or have long-term consequences? Yes.

None of her friends thought any less of her, besides Layla, and even she didn't seem to hold it against her for long. They were all still friends with Brooke once it was over. So, all things considered, it really wasn't that big a deal. It was only another blemish on an otherwise mostly good track record.
dmra wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:35 pm
And finally this whole conversation started when you contrasted Brooke to Chloe saying that one had done only mischief while the other had done only good.
No I did not.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 1-10-18 Craving for Men

Post by dmra » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:42 am

And where is your middle ground on Chloe? She offered to feed a hungry vampire and that counts for nothing. Brooke does the same thing and she's a noble hero. Does Chloe get no credit for offering to help? Of course not because she's Chloe. Does it matter than there wasn't even that much of an emergency or that other people were in fact better placed than Brooke to help and she could just have gone to them? No because she's Brooke.

Or far that matter your middle ground on Brooke. Here's what you said earlier on this page "A relatively minor infraction does not suddenly make her a horrible person."

So you clearly don't think Brooke is in any way a horrible person even though she was willing to knowingly and deliberately put one of her friends in harm's way because she was promised sex. And promised sex mind by the reincarnation of a Vampire Queen who was so vicious a figure that Blair was put into the Delacroix household to kill Nina if she showed the first sign of craving blood. Not the kind of person most decent people would trust their worst enemy with let alone a friend.

Chloe on the other hand you think is irredeemable because a) you won't accept that anything good she has done counts and b) because she has unintentionally harmed people while trying to do good.

So you've claimed that somebody who messes up is a worse person than somebody who sells out their friends to a known psychopath so she can resurrect her killer pet in their bodies just to get laid.

Speaking of the middle ground I think they're about equal morally as characters. Both have done good and bad things. You think that one is far better than the other. I think we're just going to have to disagree about their relative merits.

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 1-10-18 Craving for Men

Post by Gotoh » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:17 pm

dmra wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:42 am
And where is your middle ground on Chloe? She offered to feed a hungry vampire and that counts for nothing.

Or far that matter your middle ground on Brooke. Here's what you said earlier on this page "A relatively minor infraction does not suddenly make her a horrible person."
  • Brooke usually has good intentions and does well by her friends. In the end, she'd done little (if any) harm to them, or anyone else.
  • Chloe: Also has good intentions, but she's ruined the lives of the people she's tried to help, because she's a perpetual screw up.
Therein lies the difference and the problem. In Brooke's case, it was a one-off incident that affected no one, but herself. In Chloe's case, it's the story of her life. The more she tries to help, the worse the situation becomes for everyone else. It's the reason she's Ilsa's best asset in the field.

It has nothing to do with favoritism towards Brooke, it's evaluating them based on their intent and what they've done. I've linked to multiple examples from both comics, including Chloe's own admission of the mess she's made. Yet, you keep trying to handwave it with, 'but she didn't mean too'. If anyone's trying to give someone a free pass, it isn't me.

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Cortez
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 1-10-18 Craving for Men

Post by Cortez » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:56 am

No, Brooke's case affected more than just herself and her intent was to sacrifice someone so she could get laid.

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 1-10-18 Craving for Men

Post by Gotoh » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:11 am

@Cortez: What're you on about? :-\

No one was being sacrificed and any concern Kade might've had was quickly forgotten, as soon as he was back in Layla's good graces. So no harm done there. Brooke was the one who got called out and was left empty-handed. So yeah, she was the only one affected.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 1-10-18 Craving for Men

Post by dmra » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:46 am

Gotoh wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:11 am
@Cortez: What're you on about? :-\

No one was being sacrificed and any concern Kade might've had was quickly forgotten, as soon as he was back in Layla's good graces. So no harm done there. Brooke was the one who got called out and was left empty-handed. So yeah, she was the only one affected.
Again you're ignoring intentions when you judge people. Chloe doesn't mean to do harm but Brooke did. One set out knowingly to hurt somebody the other didn't.

And if you're still arguing that Kade suffered no long term effects so Brooke didn't do anything too bad what about Chloe and Teddy and Abby's parents? Teddy and Abby were perfectly happy to forgive and forget and let Chloe live with them and got on very well with her. We've seen Lance since and he didn't seem to be too upset by what happened and as for the mother Teddy himself said his parents were happier apart.

So by your own logic Chloe didn't do anything wrong when she split them up.

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Fluffy
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 1-10-18 Craving for Men

Post by Fluffy » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:32 pm

Gotoh wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:11 am
@Cortez: What're you on about? :-\
They're 'going on about' what happened in the comic. How are you the only one not seeing it for what it was?
No one was being sacrificed
Kade was literally tied to a table; with Quintessa intending to use his body as a vessel to bring back her murderous cat - Mr. Boodles. That is the very definition of a sacrifice.

Whether Kade had died/ceased to exist as a result, be forced to not only share his body with said murderous cat and witness the endless slaughter that cat would have done using his body (a horrible fate for someone as carefree as Kade) and regardless of the fact that the whole situation was avoided thanks to Nina and Tia helping Layla regain control of her body - none of that changes the fact that Kade was going to be sacrificed.

Again, how are you missing something so blatantly obvious?
and any concern Kade might've had was quickly forgotten, as soon as he was back in Layla's good graces.
When Layla got control of her faculties, again - you mean. Kade wasn't excited about his predicament when Quintessa was in charge.
Please, don't come to me expecting me to fix your problems.

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Error of Logic
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 1-10-18 Craving for Men

Post by Error of Logic » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:08 pm

It's been years now, and whenever I read about the vampire queen's cat, I still tend to internally reshuffle its name into "Mr. Bloodless"...

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 1-10-18 Craving for Men

Post by Gotoh » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:13 pm

dmra wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:46 am
if you're still arguing that Kade suffered no long term effects so Brooke didn't do anything too bad what about Chloe and Teddy and Abby's parents? Teddy and Abby were perfectly happy to forgive and forget and let Chloe live with them and got on very well with her.

Because you're still ignoring the context of that scene in an attempt to support your argument. The comic made it clear that Teddy said that so Chloe wouldn't "help" any more than she already had, which is the exact same reason Ilsa's allowing her to stay.
dmra wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:46 am
We've seen Lance since and he didn't seem to be too upset by what happened.
...because Lance doesn't know who was actually responsible for the affair that lead to their divorce. Just like he doesn't know who his new "wife" is either, or that he's under her control. That's why context matters.
dmra wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:46 am
So by your own logic Chloe didn't do anything wrong when she split them up.
No, 'cuz my logic says we should always look at each situation as a whole, in their canonical context.

As things currently stand, we only saw their mom's reaction to hearing Lance cheated on her. Did she look happy to you ( 3rd panel)? Do we know how Lance would feel if he ever found out the truth, assuming he wasn't still Pandora's love slave? Does his ex know what really happened? No, just as we don't how she'd feel if she ever found out that the strange girl she saw was the one that did it. All we have is Teddy's say-so, during a moment when he was panicking and trying to stop Chloe from making things worse.
Fluffy wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:32 pm
When Layla got control of her faculties, again - you mean.
Yes, which is exactly the moment I'm referring to because it's when the situation had been resolved. Kade wasn't harmed and he didn't care that Brooke had gone along with Quintessa's plan. All that mattered to him was, he and Layla were back together.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 1-10-18 Craving for Men

Post by dmra » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:33 pm

Gotoh wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:13 pm
dmra wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:46 am
if you're still arguing that Kade suffered no long term effects so Brooke didn't do anything too bad what about Chloe and Teddy and Abby's parents? Teddy and Abby were perfectly happy to forgive and forget and let Chloe live with them and got on very well with her.

Because you're still ignoring the context of that scene in an attempt to support your argument. The comic made it clear that Teddy said that so Chloe wouldn't "help" any more than she already had, which is the exact same reason Ilsa's allowing her to stay.
dmra wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:46 am
We've seen Lance since and he didn't seem to be too upset by what happened.
...because Lance doesn't know who was actually responsible for the affair that lead to their divorce. Just like he doesn't know who his new "wife" is either, or that he's under her control. That's why context matters.
dmra wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:46 am
So by your own logic Chloe didn't do anything wrong when she split them up.
No, 'cuz my logic says we should always look at each situation as a whole, in their canonical context.

As things currently stand, we only saw their mom's reaction to hearing Lance cheated on her. Did she look happy to you ( 3rd panel)? Do we know how Lance would feel if he ever found out the truth, assuming he wasn't still Pandora's love slave? Does his ex know what really happened? No, just as we don't how she'd feel if she ever found out that the strange girl she saw was the one that did it. All we have is Teddy's say-so, during a moment when he was panicking and trying to stop Chloe from making things worse.
Fluffy wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:32 pm
When Layla got control of her faculties, again - you mean.
Yes, which is exactly the moment I'm referring to because it's when the situation had been resolved. Kade wasn't harmed and he didn't care that Brooke had gone along with Quintessa's plan. All that mattered to him was, he and Layla were back together.
And did you see Ace/Blair's and Kade's faces when Brooke was helping Quintessa replace Kade's soul? Oh but that doesn't count because Brooke whereas any facial expression that shows anger or sadness definitely counts when it involves Chloe.

And even if we accept your interpretation that Teddy was panicking rather than speaking the truth you do realise that Teddy was so upset with Chloe for splitting up his folks that he allowed her to live with him and his sister. That he regularly left Chloe looking after said sister and liked Chloe so much that he was willing to make endless sacrifices for her. None of which suggests that he had any kind of lasting grudge.

So why are you so keen on disagreeing with him? Oh that's right because it's Chloe.

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 1-10-18 Craving for Men

Post by Gotoh » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:35 pm

dmra wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:33 pm
And did you see Ace/Blair's and Kade's faces when Brooke was helping Quintessa replace Kade's soul?
Yes, and the only one concerned was Blair, because he thought Quintessa was out to get him, 'til she said she had no interest in him. She wanted him out of Ace's body, which Ace was willing to accept. So...
dmra wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:33 pm
if we accept your interpretation that Teddy was panicking rather than speaking the truth you do realise that Teddy was so upset with Chloe for splitting up his folks that he allowed her to live with him and his sister. That he regularly left Chloe looking after said sister

If you're trying to keep someone from causing trouble, the safest way would be to keep an eye on them. I'm not saying it's his only reason for letting her stay with them, but it's definitely a factor. Also, Teddy's no stranger to shortsightedness and bad decisions. Remember page 1?

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