Dangerously Chloe 13-09-18 Let Me In

Discuss EC/MC/DC here!

Moderators: Dave Zero1, Don Alexander, Giz, midgetshrimp, Cassandra

User avatar
Spidrift
Posts: 12581
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:11 pm

Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-09-18 Let Me In

Post by Spidrift » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:41 pm

...Who gets that way by dint of being hideously repressed. Which is probably the point, if there is one (which I doubt); the angels’ idea of “virtue” isn’t actually compatible with their own natures, let alone those of mortals.

And yet, she’s also the being who saved thousands of human lives, when most of the cast were dithering around not knowing their arses from their elbows. If - if - I happened to know that I was one of those thousands, I might be somewhat tempted to say she’s okay with me, and, y’know, fuck your feelings.
---------
Spidrift
"Brevior vita est quam pro futumentibus negotium agendo."
-- Motto of Hogshead Publishing of fond memory, and wise words to set your Foes List by.
Avatar misappropriated from the wonderful XKCD.

User avatar
brasca
Posts: 3341
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:04 am

Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-09-18 Let Me In

Post by brasca » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:55 pm

Gotoh wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:00 am
brasca wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:08 am
Gotoh wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:19 pm
Such as...?
Magick, The Men in Plaid, or whatever explanation there is that the creators didn't have time to include because this webcomic is only posted twice a week so there's no time for exposition.
Say again? 'cuz exposition only takes 1-2 panels, like the 3rd panel here and the first 3 panels here.

Second, in addition to those scenes, we saw Ace and Brooke try to cover up the incident at the theater. And we saw Cerise take care to use Callista's back window so her neighbors wouldn't see Toby. But each of those instances was in the other two comics. Not in DC, where no one seems to care about discretion anymore.
It’s still taking a few panels out of the story when there’s more important action to cover. We’re lucky we got Charity’s explanation of what was happening to Teddi.

User avatar
brasca
Posts: 3341
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:04 am

Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-09-18 Let Me In

Post by brasca » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:57 pm

Spidrift wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:41 pm
...Who gets that way by dint of being hideously repressed. Which is probably the point, if there is one (which I doubt); the angels’ idea of “virtue” isn’t actually compatible with their own natures, let alone those of mortals.

And yet, she’s also the being who saved thousands of human lives, when most of the cast were dithering around not knowing their arses from their elbows. If - if - I happened to know that I was one of those thousands, I might be somewhat tempted to say she’s okay with me, and, y’know, fuck your feelings.
Thank you Spidrift. You’re one of the few people on this message board who understands this.

dmra
Posts: 548
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:21 pm

Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-09-18 Let Me In

Post by dmra » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:19 pm

So exactly how many lives does somebody need to save to get a "Get out of Jail Free" card on sexual assault. 1000's, 100's, 10's, 1? Let's not forget there are doctors who must have saved hundreds if not thousands of lives. Maybe we should allow them to grope patients because they've done so much good?

There really is some tangled morality on display here.

User avatar
Spidrift
Posts: 12581
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:11 pm

Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-09-18 Let Me In

Post by Spidrift » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:38 pm

Yeah. Morality is inherently tangled. Shall we try the Trolley Problem next?

How many lives? Frankly, perhaps, one, if it happens to be mine or someone close to me...

More subtly, if someone does bad stuff but also does heroically good stuff, I’ll tend to assume that they’re reformable, and want to see them helped to reform rather than just locking them up and throwing away the key. Or, I guess, they could be put on a secret government task force with an explosive charge implanted in their neck and a badass marine colonel holding the detonator.

But that’s with regard to real or vaguely realistic people. Characters in this comic’s universe don’t qualify.
---------
Spidrift
"Brevior vita est quam pro futumentibus negotium agendo."
-- Motto of Hogshead Publishing of fond memory, and wise words to set your Foes List by.
Avatar misappropriated from the wonderful XKCD.

dmra
Posts: 548
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:21 pm

Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-09-18 Let Me In

Post by dmra » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:49 pm

Spidrift wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:38 pm
More subtly, if someone does bad stuff but also does heroically good stuff, I’ll tend to assume that they’re reformable, and want to see them helped to reform rather than just locking them up and throwing away the key. Or, I guess, they could be put on a secret government task force with an explosive charge implanted in their neck and a badass marine colonel holding the detonator.
But that’s with regard to real or vaguely realistic people. Characters in this comic’s universe don’t qualify.
Or perhaps they could be treated exactly the same as any other person who thinks they have a right to abuse others but who hasn't managed to save a life.

And yes they may be comic characters but that doesn't mean that what they say or do isn't relevant. Unless you want the shallowest possible story and meaningless characterisation then their morality matters.

Now a good writer can often use that disconnect between somebody's charm or good actions to play against their less acceptable features (or vice versa of course) but all we're getting with Charity is a kind of cartoon letch who thinks it's OK to molest people. Which isn't exactly a compelling or attractive character, or at least not in my book.

User avatar
Spidrift
Posts: 12581
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:11 pm

Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-09-18 Let Me In

Post by Spidrift » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:58 pm

dmra wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:49 pm
And yes they may be comic characters but that doesn't mean that what they say or do isn't relevant. Unless you want the shallowest possible story and meaningless characterisation then their morality matters.
That isn’t what I want. It is what we’ve got.
---------
Spidrift
"Brevior vita est quam pro futumentibus negotium agendo."
-- Motto of Hogshead Publishing of fond memory, and wise words to set your Foes List by.
Avatar misappropriated from the wonderful XKCD.

Gotoh
Posts: 3907
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:18 pm

Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-09-18 Let Me In

Post by Gotoh » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:26 pm

brasca wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:55 pm
It’s still taking a few panels out of the story when there’s more important action to cover. We’re lucky we got Charity’s explanation of what was happening to Teddi.
And yet the creative team has shown characters on both sides working to keep their existence under wraps and explaining why it's necessary, several times - even during crisis situations (like the theater incident).

But in DC, it's as if the characters no longer care if the public sees anything. Also, we can't simply assume "someone's" been covering things up for them because there's no evidence to support it. And the public who, in the other two comics, was shown to be curious and attentive, has seemingly become oblivious. If you don't see why that matters (narratively), it's because it breaks established continuity.

dmra
Posts: 548
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:21 pm

Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-09-18 Let Me In

Post by dmra » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:48 pm

Spidrift wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:58 pm
dmra wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:49 pm
And yes they may be comic characters but that doesn't mean that what they say or do isn't relevant. Unless you want the shallowest possible story and meaningless characterisation then their morality matters.
That isn’t what I want. It is what we’ve got.
Frustratingly that hasn't always been the case in this comic. Chloe especially, but also Pandora on occasion, for example have acted in ways that aren't stereotypical of demons.Chloe has repeatedly tried to do good and usually failed and Pandora went back at some risk to herself to save Chloe from the angels. This shades of grey wasn't something that the audience were bashed over the head with but it was there.

It really shouldn't be that hard for Charity to be similar as an angel with bad intentions but instead we get lowest common denominator stuff played for a cheap laugh like her groping Teddi. There is very rich comic potential in a "moral" hypocrite but we just get the standard dirty old man trope.

And even that has been done better before with Blair. Who while he may have been pretty one-dimensional at least played a role in advancing the plot and had some funny stuff like none of the characters wanting to hear his origin story that wasn't just based around skirt chasing. Even a hint of that with Charity might go a long way to redeem her as a character if not as a person.

User avatar
Spidrift
Posts: 12581
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:11 pm

Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-09-18 Let Me In

Post by Spidrift » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:05 pm

Charity may have a minimalist back story (she's stuck with the traditional functions of an angel while being lumbered with the same rampaging hormones as everyone else in Pixietrix comics), but she's certainly just helped advance the plot. Once Teddy had turned himself into a walking abomination of explosive theology, it needed someone who could plausibly have read enough of the right books to act as Ms. Exposition to clarify the problem, and then to come up with enough bafflegab to provide a temporary solution. For all her faults, Charity comes across as vaguely competent at bits of her job, so she handled that requirement better than anyone else would have.
---------
Spidrift
"Brevior vita est quam pro futumentibus negotium agendo."
-- Motto of Hogshead Publishing of fond memory, and wise words to set your Foes List by.
Avatar misappropriated from the wonderful XKCD.

Gotoh
Posts: 3907
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:18 pm

Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-09-18 Let Me In

Post by Gotoh » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:19 pm

dmra wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:48 pm
even that has been done better before with Blair. Who while he may have been pretty one-dimensional at least played a role in advancing the plot.
Blair's only contribution was being the means to change Ace and Kade back into boys, and even that was happenstance rather than intentional, on his part. Aside from that, his character was pointless.

The so-called "group" he claimed to be a part of was a no-show, which begs the question if they even exist, or was it a lie? And he goofed around in Ace's body while the Layla/Quintessa situation basically resolved itself. In my view, Blair was an unnecessary annoyance, so I was happy to see him finally get the boot from the Delacroix Family.

dmra
Posts: 548
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:21 pm

Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-09-18 Let Me In

Post by dmra » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:49 pm

@Spidrift
I've never quite bought Charity knowing how somebody could become a god. If such a relatively low status angel as her knows about the magic formula for divinity it really can't be that big a secret.

Personally I think although she's shown no particular competence so far they needed to give the job to somebody because Pandora was needed to obtain the angel blood and Alchemy had been used as a source for the reaper blood. Both of them have given advice/exposition in the past but had been needed to advance the blood mixing plot line so were out of the loop on this.

@Gotoh

Blair was an annoying minor character there for regular bouts of wacky hijinks but he also kicked off the whole Tiresias orb arc and was also important in giving exposition on Layla/Quintessa. Not to mention he shared Ace's body for a while and starred in a solo story researching Tia's origins. He was never going to be a hero figure but he was useful on a number of times and featured in multiple strips sometimes just for laughs but sometimes for real narrative purposes.

He may not have been particularly likeable but he was pretty important on a number of occasions.

Fereshte
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:59 am

Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-09-18 Let Me In

Post by Fereshte » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:18 pm

Spidrift wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:41 pm
...Who gets that way by dint of being hideously repressed. Which is probably the point, if there is one (which I doubt); the angels’ idea of “virtue” isn’t actually compatible with their own natures, let alone those of mortals.

And yet, she’s also the being who saved thousands of human lives, when most of the cast were dithering around not knowing their arses from their elbows. If - if - I happened to know that I was one of those thousands, I might be somewhat tempted to say she’s okay with me, and, y’know, fuck your feelings.
If someone saved thousands of lives, but then went on to sexually assault even just one person, I’d be okay with sending that person to jail (in a modern concept of justice IRL) or, at the very least, call them out on their horrific behavior. If I happened to be one of the people saved, I’d be sad to see a hero fall but still hold said hero accountable for their behavior. The idea that once can do whatever with someone else’s body just because they did a heroic deed is a terrible one. And if anyone had an issue with that, I’d have no problems saying fuck your feelings, because no one should have access to another person’s body without their consent, no matter who they are.
Last edited by Fereshte on Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Gotoh
Posts: 3907
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:18 pm

Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-09-18 Let Me In

Post by Gotoh » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:20 pm

dmra wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:49 pm
Blair also kicked off the whole Tiresias orb arc
Actually, it was Mel who started the Tiresisas incident, because she was the one who brought it to the school. Had she not done that and let the orb out of her sight, Blair never would've gotten hold of it.
dmra wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:49 pm
was also important in giving exposition on Layla/Quintessa. Not to mention he shared Ace's body for a while
Tia could just as easily have handled any exposition about Quintessa, just as she did while she and Nina were in Layla's psyche. And Blair contributed nothing while he was in Ace's body. All he did was hit on girls and perv on Brooke while she was getting vampire hickeys from Quintessa.
dmra wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:49 pm
He may not have been particularly likeable but he was pretty important on a number of occasions.
Blair didn't have to be likeable, I would've settled for competent.

User avatar
Spidrift
Posts: 12581
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:11 pm

Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-09-18 Let Me In

Post by Spidrift » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:36 pm

dmra wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:49 pm
I've never quite bought Charity knowing how somebody could become a god. If such a relatively low status angel as her knows about the magic formula for divinity it really can't be that big a secret.
I got the impression that she was working out what was happening from first principles. And while the metaphysics of the setting are wobbly and arbitrary to the point of utter fricking stupidity and way beyond, it's probably reasonable to guess that there isn't a reliable formula; rather, ascension to quasi-divinity (with a side effect of tactical nuke-level explosion, making the idea blatantly stupid to anyone who understood the principles) is just one possible consequence. A very slightly different mix might have led to Teddy's head exploding, or him rapidly switching through different states while his mind turned to mush from the stress, or him forming a psychic link between all of the blood donors, causing all of them to go mad from the moral incompatibility...

Perhaps I should just say "Potion Miscibility Table" for the benefit of the old geeks present.

Plus, even if any well-informed being could work out the logic, it still needs blood from multiple paranormal beings, plus a mortal recipient. Finding the former might not be trivial, and wanting to raise the latter to quasi-godhood might not be that common a goal.
Fereshte wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:18 pm
The idea that once can do whatever with someone else’s body just because they did a heroic deed is a terrible one.
Yeah, it is. And yet, Charity is the one who saved the day. The real problem here is a supreme being (or whatever -- I'd be tempted to say Gnostic demiurge) who created angels with a full set of human inclinations, then imposed an absolutist morality on them, then sent the resulting ludicrously repressed and confused screw-ups out into the universe to prevent stupid theological disasters.

In other words, blame God. As usual.

I am a little bemused, though, at someone saying that Charity is "the worst character" when the setting also features Pandora, who casually uses magical date-rape drugs, and Slash-Stab, who is, you know, part of a long-term project to drag as many humans as possible down to eternal torment... Okay, so there's basically nobody in the comic who rates as even faintly nice by any straight-faced standard, but once we're talking about "worst", we have to start comparing long-term behaviour.
---------
Spidrift
"Brevior vita est quam pro futumentibus negotium agendo."
-- Motto of Hogshead Publishing of fond memory, and wise words to set your Foes List by.
Avatar misappropriated from the wonderful XKCD.

Post Reply