Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

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dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by dmra » Mon May 28, 2018 3:10 pm

Gotoh wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 2:44 pm

Notice what Tandy said in the same panel you're referring to: "I thought we were only going to scare the kid outta town." But they changed their minds from trying to scare Abby off, to offering to find her help.
Tandy said that while pointing out that she hadn't come with the right tools for beheading somebody. And the proceeded to put a knife to Chloe's throat while warning her that "this is gonna be messy".

I'm pretty sure that that's the kind of behaviour that would put anybody off entrusting a 12 year old to somebody.

Although for what it's worth reading about Abby's adventures at AA could have been really entertaining so possibly a lost opportunity.

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by Gotoh » Mon May 28, 2018 3:42 pm

@dmra: I look at two things concerning that scene: 1.) Tandy didn't go through with it, 2.) they didn't threaten to harm Abby.

Chloe was right there and heard everything they said, after they heard Abby's side of it. Tandy plainly said they were letting both of them off the hook, since she felt the whole thing was Teddy's fault for making the pact in the first place and Gabrielle agreed with her.

If they were still gonna kill Chloe or Abby at that point, the reaction would've been: "sorry, kid" and both of them would've been left bleeding out in the park. Since that didn't happen, that tells me their lives were no longer in danger.
Fluffy wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 2:56 pm
@Gotoh - Artemis Academy is a school meant to train its students to hunt demons/monsters - something that the general population has no idea even exist. If the monster school is unknown to the general public, I can't see why it wouldn't be the same for AA.
The public is aware of the existence of both schools and they know where both schools are (panel 3 here and here). What they don't know is one school is for cryptids, though Layla noted that there are rumors to that effect about CH, and the public isn't aware of what's being taught at AA, or that espers, magic users, etc. exist.

So Teddy should be able to find AA's number and address with a quick online search.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by dmra » Mon May 28, 2018 3:55 pm

"Their lives were no longer in danger" - which rather suggests that their lives had indeed been in danger.

If somebody pulls a gun on me, says I'm going to shoot you and takes the safety catch off before being persuaded not to fire by a young girl's tears I'm pretty confident I'd want to put as much distance between me and everyone I care about and them as possible as quickly as possible. I certainly wouldn't be happy to see the young girl going off with them - even if she was saying she wanted to because "guns are cool"

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by Gotoh » Mon May 28, 2018 4:24 pm

@dmra: It'd be more like local law enforcement (the AA duo) letting you off with a misdemeanor warning, then offering to bring one suspect back to the station to find assistance for them.

Except the other suspect decides, "screw that," then grabs the other one and runs off to a terrorist hideout thinking that would be better. Then when things get worse, the second suspect wonders why. Which is basically what Chloe did.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by dmra » Mon May 28, 2018 4:46 pm

@Gotoh

I don't know about local law enforcement where you are but execution without a trial is a pretty high level of punishment for them to be authorised to carry out. Especially when the person they're planning on executing is tied up and helpless. And I'm sure there must be easier ways to kill succubi than beheading them slowly with a dagger.

So I''m not sure that example works especially when we don't even know if monster hunters in the DC world are legally authorised to kill monsters or are just vigilantes.

.

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by Gotoh » Mon May 28, 2018 6:46 pm

@dmra: That's because a trial isn't deemed necessary since they've been taught that cryptids pray on humanity and that they're irredeemably evil. It's no different than the students at Beacon Academy hunting Grimm, or Link when he mows down Ganon's minions. They do it to protect others, just as the AA students are being taught to do.

We were told directly by two members of the creative team: Dave01 and TCampbell. Dave once commented that most cryptids in the *C-verse eat humans and that they see it as being no different than how we (as humans) regard eating chicken. Point being, we're food to them. A fact which Layla has repeatedly stated; including where her friends are concerned.

And T once stated that AA is a school for heroines, which he said was all the validation Faith felt she needed to consider herself heroic. Tiff begrudgingly made the same point when she first told the Hellrunes about her.

(quote): "She's a monster hunter in training, so she's technically on the side of good."

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by dmra » Mon May 28, 2018 7:32 pm

@Gotoh

None of which answers the question by what right do AA trained monster hunters kill? Are they authorised by the state or by themselves? Because people who murder other people without some sort of legal authority to do so aren't generally regarded as heroic or fighters for justice but murderers.

And you do realise that people don't tend to think of themselves as evil even when they do evil things. As an example Gabby's own friends admit that she likes torturing people a bit too much but don't seem overly bothered about it. Which doesn't sound to me exactly heroic of her or them. "Oh yes my friend enjoys inflicting pain on and torturing people but only the ones who really really deserve it so that's OK"

So AA is a school for heroines some of whom are trained to torture people and the rest don't mind that one of their number is an obvious sadist. In fact rather than expelling her they put her on the student council.

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by Gotoh » Mon May 28, 2018 8:09 pm

dmra wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:32 pm
None of which answers the question by what right do AA trained monster hunters kill? Are they authorised by the state or by themselves?
The implication is they serve Artemis, who's been referenced at least twice in the series. Which makes sense given her distinction as "the goddess of the hunt".
dmra wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:32 pm
And you do realise that people don't tend to think of themselves as evil even when they do evil things. As an example Gabby's own friends admit that she likes torturing people a bit too much but don't seem overly bothered about it.
Wolverine has no qualms about killing anyone who comes at him, or if they happen to piss him off. That doesn't automatically make the X-Men villainous. Point being, you can't write off an entire group because of the actions of only one of its members.

Gabby has a meanstreak, yes, but that doesn't make her evil. We were even told she's admired at AA, which apparently includes Tandy given she's best friends with Gabby, despite griping about the things she does. So there has to be some good in her.

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by Dragon Paladin » Mon May 28, 2018 8:58 pm

What Chloe SHOULD have done is teleport her and Abbey to Hell to get away from the hunters, then immediately teleport back to Abbey's home.
I am Suleviir, Paladin of Iomede, Goddess of Valor. Those who do evil shall fear my blade.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by dmra » Mon May 28, 2018 9:07 pm

So the monster hunters operate according to divine authority. Again I'm not entirely sure what role Artemis plays in the Government or the legal system and let's be honest people who justify illegal killing by saying that God told them to do it don't normally get a free pass do they? And she's also a goddess who once had a man turned into a stag and torn apart by his own hunting dogs because he accidentally stumbled across her taking a bath. So not exactly the most liberal or moderate dealers of justice.

And on Gabby I'm pretty sure that wanting to pull out somebody's finger nails is closer to torture than it is to a mean streak. http://www.magickchicks.com/strips-mc/P ... eats_roche ,

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by Gotoh » Mon May 28, 2018 10:23 pm

dmra wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 9:07 pm
So the monster hunters operate according to divine authority. Again I'm not entirely sure what role Artemis plays in the Government or the legal system
If Artemis' attitude is anything like her sister's, I doubt she concerns herself with our legal systems.
dmra wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 9:07 pm
And she's also a goddess who once had a man turned into a stag and torn apart by his own hunting dogs because he accidentally stumbled across her taking a bath. So not exactly the most liberal or moderate dealers of justice.
The *C-verse plays fast and loose with mythology and folklore, such as vampires that can breed and one who managed to survive on chocolate, 'til recently. So I wouldn't be surprised if their version of Artemis isn't quite the same as the one from classic Greek mythology.
dmra wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 9:07 pm
And on Gabby I'm pretty sure that wanting to pull out somebody's finger nails is closer to torture than it is to a mean streak.
...except she never actually does it. Each time she tries it, she's either denied the opportunity and sulks, or she doesn't follow through with it.

There was a KAOS agent from 'Get Smart!' that used the same schtick: always eager to torture, always denied the opportunity, or foiled before he could do it. It was one of the funniest gags in the series.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by dmra » Tue May 29, 2018 12:45 am

Artemis might not concern herself with out legal systems but that would just make her hunters criminal vigilantes. I somehow can't see many judges accepting "but Artemis told me to cut that young lady's head off" as a valid defence for homicide.

So it's OK that Gabby is a sadistic torturer because she's incompetent at it. That's a bit like saying attempted murder shouldn't be a crime because the person trying to kill somebody screwed up. But that still doesn't invalidate the point that the "heroines" of Artemis Academy are perfectly happy to have some of their schoolmates - including one obvious sadist - routinely trained in torture techniques.

And bringing this back to the DC world let's not forget that Gabby's reaction to discovering an angel was to panic that her bad deeds might have caught up with her. Not exactly how you'd expect a heroine to react is it?

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by Gotoh » Tue May 29, 2018 2:22 am

dmra wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:45 am
Artemis might not concern herself with out legal systems but that would just make her hunters criminal vigilantes.
No it doesn't. If they're acting under divine authority ("divine" being the operative word), that'd mean they're servants of good. Therefore, heroines.
dmra wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:45 am
I somehow can't see many judges accepting "but Artemis told me to cut that young lady's head off" as a valid defence for homicide.
Given both sides seem intent on keeping their existences secret from the public, I doubt it'll ever come to that.
dmra wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:45 am
So it's OK that Gabby is a sadistic torturer because she's incompetent at it.
When and where did I say that? :-\

Being denied the opportunity means only that. If Faith tells Gabby "no," she's free to gripe about it, but still has to abide by Faith's decision. And if Gabby sees there isn't a need to carry out a threat, that shows restraint and good judgement on her part.
dmra wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:45 am
let's not forget that Gabby's reaction to discovering an angel was to panic that her bad deeds might have caught up with her. Not exactly how you'd expect a heroine to react is it?
Because good isn't always nice.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by dmra » Tue May 29, 2018 3:36 am

Hekate is also a divinity so on your logic her followers are also acting on divine authority and therefore are above the law. Or do you think that followers of "evil" divinities should obey the law but followers of "good" ones are allowed to break it?

"When and where did I say that? "

OK incompetent may have been the wrong word but you said that it was OK that Gabby had a love for torturing people because she'd not had a chance to do it.

Speaking of which lets take a closer look at another of the shining examples of the heroines who go to AA. And it's in that very example you linked to. Faith tells Gabby she can't torture any of the witches. Why? Is it because Faith thinks torture is wrong? Is it because Faith thinks the girl are innocent or haven't done anything worthy of punishment. No it's because she's hoping to have sex with Melissa and thinks that seeing her friends be tortured might put Mel off the idea of sexy fun times.

So nothing to do with right or wrong but everything to do with Faith wanting to get laid. So a bit more of a villain type thing really than something a heroine might do. Good may not always be nice but it shouldn't be deciding who the good and bad guys are by how much it's sexually attracted to them.

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by Gotoh » Tue May 29, 2018 4:33 am

dmra wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 3:36 am
Hekate is also a divinity so on your logic her followers are also acting on divine authority and therefore are above the law.
Hecate is evil (she's the goddess of witchcraft) and doesn't pretend to be otherwise. Which is why she despises the wand and its influence on Mel. So definitely not the same as being one of Artemis' followers.
dmra wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 3:36 am
OK incompetent may have been the wrong word but you said that it was OK that Gabby had a love for torturing people because she'd not had a chance to do it.
I'd file that under "no harm, no foul" and because it's treated as a running gag.
dmra wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 3:36 am
Is it because Faith thinks torture is wrong? Is it because Faith thinks the girl are innocent or haven't done anything worthy of punishment. No it's because she's hoping to have sex with Melissa and thinks that seeing her friends be tortured might put Mel off the idea of sexy fun times.
Two corrections here: 1.) Faith was referring to Tiff, not Mel. 2.) she only said she was romancing her, since she had promised Tiff that she'd wait, 'til Tiff felt ready.

Aside from that, yes, her decision was motivated by self-interest, but that doesn't mean that's all it was. Despite their differences, Mel and Jacqui were still her classmates, which made them allies. Heroines don't condone torturing their own, especially not without just cause.

That's why she opts for subtly and tact instead. Remember why she held the pool party, or how she said she learned Tiff's patrol route? Or how she had Sandi secretly looking for a connection between Mel and the wand? Espionage is Faith's M.O., not torture.

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