Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

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dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by dmra » Tue May 29, 2018 8:33 am

So it's OK for people following divinities to act as divine vigilantes but only if the divinity meets your standard of "good"? As long as they do that then they can cheerfully go around the place threatening small children and cutting the heads off succubi without any kind of legal due process. I know a lot of readers might be glad to see Pandora become several inches shorter but I still think that's a bit much freedom to allow to some unlicensed teenagers.

And on the whole are AA students "good" vigilantes or "bad" vigilantes I'll just put this there and let people decide for themselves quite how heroic the likes of Faith are.

"Heroines don't condone torturing their own, especially not without just cause."

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Spidrift
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by Spidrift » Tue May 29, 2018 11:46 am

Basic problem of settings with a hidden supernatural element; if some supernatural beings are bad enough to merit killing (as is traditional), how do you do that “legitimately”? Was Buffy Summers a mass murderer because she obliterated an average of maybe four or five fully sapient beings an episode?

The fact that this setting is partly an incomplete and ham-fisted parody of the BtVS world with even less thought given to fiddly questions of morality is a separate issue.
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Spidrift
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Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by Gotoh » Tue May 29, 2018 12:21 pm

dmra wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 8:33 am
So it's OK for people following divinities to act as divine vigilantes but only if the divinity meets your standard of "good"?
It has nothing to do with my definition of "good". The distinction is Hecate is established as being a force of evil. The comic has been clear on that. Just as acting on divine authority is inherently perceived to be good.

Case in point: Link in 'Breath of the Wild'. He serves the goddess Hylia as her Chosen Hero and is therefore acknowledged as the hero of Hyrule, despite mowing down entire armies of Calamity Ganon's minions.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by dmra » Tue May 29, 2018 2:25 pm

@Spidrift I've long since stopped looking for any kind of consistency in the treatment of the various groups in the EC/MC/DC world. Mainly because we don't have anything like enough information to do so. There are still very basic questions about the running of the in world universe that haven't been touched by the authors. For instance if there is a school for monster hunters that is happy to send it's students out with the power to kill any random cryptids they come across why do they maintain the kind of links with a school for "monsters" that allows that school to send students to Artemis on an exchange program?

But even if there aren't any answers it can still be fun talking about it.

@Gotoh it's probably better to argue within the terms of the current story rather than referring to alternate worlds. After all I'm sure there are plenty of people who would argue that Hekate has not in reality generally been considered "evil" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecate) so her presentation here as pure evil is grossly unfair,

And as far as it goes that AA has been shown as a force for good I'd suggest that the scene where the witches were complaining about having had to learn the temperature at which they'd burn might show otherwise. In fact I think most people would regard anybody who wanted to burn witches as somewhat suspect rather than conventionally "good".

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by Gotoh » Tue May 29, 2018 5:03 pm

dmra wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:25 pm
After all I'm sure there are plenty of people who would argue that Hekate has not in reality generally been considered "evil" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecate) so her presentation here as pure evil is grossly unfair
...which is why I noted that the *C-verse takes liberties with mythology and folklore earlier. And the *C-verse version of Hecate is evil.
dmra wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 1974 9:31 pm
And as far as it goes that AA has been shown as a force for good I'd suggest that the scene where the witches were complaining about having had to learn the temperature at which they'd burn might show otherwise.
No, it doesn't. They've repeatedly been noted as demon slayers in trainng for a reason: because they're still learning. In order to hunt cryptids, it's necessary for them to learn the most efficient ways to do it. It'd be irresponsible of the faculty to send them out into the field without properly preparing them for what they'll be up against first.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by dmra » Tue May 29, 2018 5:25 pm

So you think it's "good" to burn witches but only if you set the oven to the right temperature. And presumably only after you've tortured them for any useful information they might hold.

The problem with this debate is that (with a few exceptions like the reincarnations of vampire queens) we haven't really seen any of the cryptids being evil. Causing mischief yes but actual downright evil. So what are they being hunted for?

In fact the nearest we've seen to Artemis interacting with real evil was with Cerise. And, despite attempting to murder several people. mind controlling the students and imprisoning the faculty she was let off without so much as a slapped wrist simply because Melissa said she ought to be.

Again I'm not really seeing how this is a school for "heroines" if Chloe can be threatened with decapitation just for existing but Cerise gets a pass for multiple horrible crimes.

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by Gotoh » Tue May 29, 2018 5:58 pm

dmra wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:25 pm
So you think it's "good" to burn witches but only if you set the oven to the right temperature.
It has nothing to do with setting the right temperature, it's teaching them what their target's weaknesses are, and the most efficient ways to implement those weaknesses. I don't see why that's so hard for you to grasp.
dmra wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:25 pm
we haven't really seen any of the cryptids being evil. Causing mischief yes but actual downright evil. So what are they being hunted for?[/i][/color]
Dave01 already explained that: because many of them eat humans. We're food to them.

The ones like Layla and her friends are the exceptions, but the vast majority of cryptids (i.e. the ones the story doesn't focus on) have no such reservations. Like Ana, for example, who once bragged about the bloody revolt she lead against the Lord of Shadows and the death and destruction she and her army rained upon Montreal when they invaded it.

Or how Cerise saw nothing wrong with wanting to kill both her best friends out of misplaced resentment towards Mel, along with 7 other girls who had nothing to do with it - simply because.
dmra wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:25 pm
And, despite attempting to murder several people. mind controlling the students and imprisoning the faculty she was let off without so much as a slapped wrist simply because Melissa said she ought to be.
That was Mel's decision, not Faith's.

Had it been up to her, Cerise would be rotting in a hell dimension right now. But Mel abused her position as new student council president to let Cerise off scot-free and made it so no one could come after Cerise for revenge. And if you look at the dialogue in the first panel, the Hellrunes wiped the student body's memory of what had happened to them. So they covered Cerise's tracks for her.

Faith has shown she'll bend the rules, but she won't break them. She has to abide by Mel's decision, even though she openly disagreed with it.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by dmra » Tue May 29, 2018 6:31 pm

@Gotoh

“It has nothing to do with setting the right temperature, it's teaching them what their target's weaknesses are, and the most efficient ways to implement those weaknesses. I don't see why that's so hard for you to grasp.”

What we're talking about is capturing sentient beings. Tying them to stakes , piling wood around them and setting the wood on fire. And then watching as they slowly burn to death in excruciating pain.

I don't see why that's so hard for you to grasp.

Now you may think that burning witches is the kind of thing that “good heroines” do but I can't help feeling that there must be easier and kinder ways than that to dispose of them.

“That was Mel's decision, not Faith's.”

Which is why I said it was Melissa who said Cerise should be forgiven.

“But Mel abused her position as new student council president to let Cerise off scot-free and made it so no one could come after Cerise for revenge.”

Right so the Academy that trains monster hunters is now completely in the hands of somebody who they should be hunting and who lets off a kidnapper and attempted murderer just because she's her friend.

And none of the faculty or Artemis herself have any problem with that. Remind me again about how this is a school for heroines and what a force for good Artemis is.

“Faith has shown she'll bend the rules, but she won't break them. She has to abide by Mel's decision, even though she openly disagreed with it.“

Again Faith isn't the school or Artemis and doesn't hold any other position in whatever hierarchy looks after monster hunters. She's just a very exceptional student.

So the entire monster hunting community and their goddess are all perfectly happy to go along with what a single student wants and let one of the "monsters" they are supposed to be hunting take a position of control and influence at the school where they train their monster hunters.

I don't know about you but I'm seriously beginning to doubt any credentials the monster hunters may have that justifies them playing Pokemon Go let alone hunting and killing living thinking feeling beings.

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by Gotoh » Tue May 29, 2018 6:56 pm

dmra wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 6:31 pm
you may think that burning witches is the kind of thing that “good heroines” do but I can't help feeling that there must be easier and kinder ways than that to dispose of them.
That depends on whether those kinder, easier ways work. 'cuz there's at least one witch(?) who seemingly can't die. So clearly, kinder conventional methods aren't gonna do it in her case. And even if we ignore that Ana is the exception among her kind, we've also seen that Hecate can intervene on her followers behalf, if she chooses.

So if you were the AA faculty/student council, would you take a chance by going against something like that with kid gloves, knowing the opposition isn't going to be as charitable? Hell no. They'll stick with whatever method has proven to actually work.
dmra wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 6:31 pm
Right so the Academy that trains monster hunters is now completely in the hands of somebody who they should be hunting and who lets off a kidnapper and attempted murderer just because she's her friend.
Mel is only half-witch and she helped saved their school from Cerise's control. So they owe her a debt of gratitude for at least that much, which is why Faith initially said she was willig to grandfather Melissa in and intended to exonerate Jacqui for helping them while they were trapped in the Bermuda Triangle.
dmra wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 6:31 pm
I don't know about you but I'm seriously beginning to doubt any credentials the monster hunters may have that justifies them playing Pokemon Go let alone hunting and killing living thinking feeling beings.
As opposed to the alternative...? (i.e. allow crytids continue to pray on the unsuspecting public unchecked, out of a misplaced sense of morality). Gonna have to agree with Blade on this one (@3:10-3:26).

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by dmra » Tue May 29, 2018 7:14 pm

Well I strongly suspect that Ana is different to most witches because otherwise her nemesis would just invest in a flamethrower and not travel the world in search of magical items to use to kill her.

And you've completely ignored the point that Artemis Academy seems to be run by the student president and not by the faculty or a board of governors. Which is surely a bit much for a place that is training people to go out and kill monsters. You'd think that just maybe experienced monster hunters might believe it would be better if they were in control than giving into the whims of teenage novices. You might also think that Artemis should be recruiting a better standard of follower than she seems happy to settle for.

Because as it stands it seems that good isn't just not nice it's also particularly stupid, incompetent and ineffective.

Look the bottom line is that the creators clearly don't care about gaping plot issues like the faculty taking no interest whatsoever in the school they work at. I mean Dumbledore didn't exactly have the greatest respect for rules, regulations and ethics but I think even he'd draw the line at letting a kidnapper and attempted murderer got off scot free just because the head prefect said so.

So there really isn't much point trying to pretend that there's any kind of coherent thinking around things like whether or not the people at Artemis Academy are noble heroines or sadistic killers and torturers. The real answer is that they're whatever the creators think will advance the plot while getting the biggest laugh.

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by Gotoh » Tue May 29, 2018 7:26 pm

dmra wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 7:14 pm
And you've completely ignored the point that Artemis Academy seems to be run by the student president and not by the faculty or a board of governors.
That's pretty common in anime and manga too: 'Absurdly Powerful Student Council'. The second paragraph basically sums up the trope. I've seen it enough times now that I accept it as the norm in fictional highschool settings.

I read the rest of your post, but this seemed to be the gist of it, so it was easier just to address the main issue.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 24-05-18 Manliest Cocktail in the Universe

Post by dmra » Tue May 29, 2018 10:34 pm

I'm well aware of the trope. The point I was making is that in a comic universe where responsible adults are completely lacking there really isn't much point trying to analyse the finer points of anything in that world which should involve those adults. The entire universe is essentially illogical because elements which should be there are simply missing. So the school can be taken over by a representative of an enemy deity and not one single adult cares in the slightest.

Which makes a mockery of the idea that there is any kind of organised body of monster hunters but makes for an entertaining story so who cares?

The same lack of logic applies elsewhere too. We aren't supposed to care too much that a school for heroines has pupils who are very keen on torture and where burning witches alive is on the curriculum. Or for that matter really mind that the villain gets forgiven for everything even though she hasn't shown a single redeeming feature for ages and shows no sign of regret for her actions.

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