Dangerously Chloe 2-04-18 Your Big Secret

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Rosa
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 2-04-18 Your Big Secret

Post by Rosa » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:27 pm

BioYuGi wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:50 pm
Yeah it seems simple to me. Trolling is something you do to get a rise out of people, criticism is something you do with a hope people will improve.
And how would anyone know what's going on in your head? Telepathy?
This is the same error of logic Error of Logic made before. If you're an admin at a forum, you have no business trying to read the thoughts of your forum members or trying to sort out the truths and lies in their half-assed excuses. Your job is evaluating facts. All you have to do is observe the hard data in front of you and judge based on that. As I've been saying from the beginning: trolling is about the things people write, where they write them, and how other people react; you just have to use your eyes and common sense, no mind-reading is needed.
"I assume that the creative team does read the boards and that, through
the troll swill, they can find a decent thought-provoking post from time
to time. Other than money (of course), praise and intelligent discussion
concerning an artist's work has to be their life blood."

(by @worldshaking00)

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 2-04-18 Your Big Secret

Post by Error of Logic » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:34 pm

I have to disagree.

By the definition I provided - and which appears to be acceptable to the majority so far - intent does matter.
A specific example from my own experience: on one occasion I managed to offend the moderator of a forum with what I personally considered to be a harmless joke. The mod apprised me of his feelings, and I apologized immediately.

So: I provoked a negative emotional response without meaning to. The hard data: I offended the moderator with a remark he considered to be offensive. But the modifier is that this was never my intent. I mentioned this, but also offered my apologies because I regretted offending another person's sensibilities. The moderator was kind enough to accept my apologies, and we managed to get along reasonably well afterward, and as we had done before. I just needed to keep in mind the lesson I had learned.

Mind-reading is, indeed, not required. But judging the intent behind 'hard data' is always necessary when communicating with humans, and enquiring further into another individual's intentions when a misunderstanding threatens to arise. Human language is not a mathematical formula; there are constant emotional and situational modifiers, especially as we must consider that one individual's definition of common sense is likely to differ from another's.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 2-04-18 Your Big Secret

Post by dmra » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:43 pm

Rosa wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:27 pm
BioYuGi wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:50 pm
Yeah it seems simple to me. Trolling is something you do to get a rise out of people, criticism is something you do with a hope people will improve.
And how would anyone know what's going on in your head? Telepathy?
This is the same error of logic Error of Logic made before. If you're an admin at a forum, you have no business trying to read the thoughts of your forum members or trying to sort out the truths and lies in their half-assed excuses. Your job is evaluating facts. All you have to do is observe the hard data in front of you and judge based on that. As I've been saying from the beginning: trolling is about the things people write, where they write them, and how other people react; you just have to use your eyes and common sense, no mind-reading is needed.
I have seen several people complaining about the posts put up by you, FGF and Vitocap and the negative effects they are having on the forum. By your own logic then you are clearly a troll because you are posting things that people don't like and which are upsetting them.

So perhaps you could tell us why you don't think you fall foul of your own definition?

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 2-04-18 Your Big Secret

Post by Vitocap » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:48 pm

Error of Logic wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:11 pm
Too kind, too kind.

But will you go for a second, and agree with the definitions of constructive criticism and trolling I provided?
I'm with Rosa on this one, my boy. Read my other post.
We, the old ghosts of Pizen Bluff, who still roam about this dead forum screaming imprecations at the characters and whatnot.

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 2-04-18 Your Big Secret

Post by Error of Logic » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:54 pm

So then your only definition of trolling is to be "going to a forum, or any community group, and annoying people who like something, whatever it is, with negative comments and remarks they don't take well" - ?

I would put it to you that this definition is insufficient. Motivation matters in everything that we do, sir or madam, and as you can see from my own example in my post previous to this one, unfortunate mistakes can be made without ill intent.

And note you have not responded at all to the definition of constructive criticism - an oversight, I fancy, given it has become one of the sticking points of the arguments of these past few weeks.

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 2-04-18 Your Big Secret

Post by Rosa » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:55 pm

Vitocap wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:02 pm
Rosa wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:30 pm
If you need examples, I can tell you what happened to me in a forum of white supremacists when I explained that white people were cool but black people were cool too, or in a forum of Tolkien fans when I said the dude was a swell writer but his Nazi sympathies (well-documented, and also obvious from his books) were kinda icky.
:)) =))

My educated guess is that it was more or less the same that happened to this individual here:

Image


It is my understanding that you have a soft spot for Donald Duck comics authored by Carl Barks, so I'm confident that you will appreciate the reference. :p
Haha.
Much appreciated. :ymparty:
From the final page in Secret of Hondorica, right?
"I assume that the creative team does read the boards and that, through
the troll swill, they can find a decent thought-provoking post from time
to time. Other than money (of course), praise and intelligent discussion
concerning an artist's work has to be their life blood."

(by @worldshaking00)

─────────────────────────────────────────
http://image.ibb.co/jtqXqx/output.gif

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 2-04-18 Your Big Secret

Post by dmra » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:03 pm

@Error of Logic I also think that definition isn't particularly satisfactory especially the "remarks they don't take well" part. How the hell is anybody supposed to know before hand how somebody will take what they are going to say? It's not as though humans are telepathic or able to predict the future. The only way to avoid the possibility of offending somebody is to post something so anodyne and dull that it wouldn't be worth saying in the first place.

Not only that but if two or three people don't like something I say but seven do am I 30% of a troll? Given that somebody is bound not to like what somebody else says where is the sensible troll percentage threshold? 1%, 10%, 50%?

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 2-04-18 Your Big Secret

Post by Error of Logic » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:10 pm

Rosa wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:55 pm
If you need examples, I can tell you what happened to me in a forum of ... etc
In the interest of fair and open debate of the issues currently gripping this forum, might I request that you respond to the question posed to you at the end of this post? While the tone may strike you as confrontational, I would nevertheless ask that you respond.
While Don Alexander is still absent, only measured discussion of our motivations and lines of reasoning can resolve the tensions on this forum, after all. As you yourself have said, we can not simply read one another's minds and know one another's truth, we must yield it up and discuss it to achieve understanding.

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 2-04-18 Your Big Secret

Post by Vitocap » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:55 pm

Rosa wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:55 pm
Vitocap wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:02 pm
My educated guess is that it was more or less the same that happened to this individual here:

Image


It is my understanding that you have a soft spot for Donald Duck comics authored by Carl Barks, so I'm confident that you will appreciate the reference. :p
Haha.
Much appreciated. :ymparty:
From the final page in Secret of Hondorica, right?
B-)
Close.
Very close.
But no cigar. [-X

Care to try again? :p

Rosa wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:27 pm
And how would anyone know what's going on in your head? Telepathy?
This is the same error of logic Error of Logic made before. If you're an admin at a forum, you have no business trying to read the thoughts of your forum members or trying to sort out the truths and lies in their half-assed excuses. Your job is evaluating facts. All you have to do is observe the hard data in front of you and judge based on that. As I've been saying from the beginning: trolling is about the things people write, where they write them, and how other people react; you just have to use your eyes and common sense, no mind-reading is needed.
This. ^

This is what we need. EOL is so proud of the definition of trolling he found... but the net is brimming full of websites and dictionaries with definitions of trolling, and anyone who can google can find twenty different definitions in a minute, easy. We need what you gave us: a simple description. The lawman who goes to arrest a dangerous baddie doesn't need a definition of badness, or an elucidation of the nature of evil in the heart of man. All he needs is a description of the criminal -- to recognize him when he sees him. That's just like us: what we need is a description to help us call a troll a troll. And, with that in mind, your description is perfect.

There are people in this forum who love the comic and come to share their enjoyment with other fans. Milnoc, rogermart, DarkAsh, renmei, TJgalon, lordoffiling, BlairFan, otaku247, VHD, christopheftw, you, me, a score more I can't remember right now, we all come to the forum mostly to talk about the many things we like in the comic. And then, there are people who don't like the comic and come here only to explain to the fans how terrible and godawful the story is. And these fellas are extraordinarily noisy and verbose, and they will directly tell to every single person who expresses a positive opinion how wrong they are, and they will fill pages and pages with words like "stupid," "gross," "appalling," "racism," "child abuse," "sexual abuse," and so on and so forth. This guy, the latest one in their tribe, is more crude, more blunt, less hypocritical, less sanctimonious, not afraid to use profanity... but, when we go by your description of a troll, when we compare him with the specimens we already had around here, what's the big diff? It's same old, same old.

A community dedicated to a certain comic series, those who gather because they are fans and write positive messages about everything they like in the series, those who claim to be fans but obviously are not because they only write extremely aggressive negative comments against both the series and the fans who love it... yep, all the pieces in your description are here all right. :-bd
We, the old ghosts of Pizen Bluff, who still roam about this dead forum screaming imprecations at the characters and whatnot.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 2-04-18 Your Big Secret

Post by dmra » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:10 pm

Vitocap wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:55 pm
A community dedicated to a certain comic series, those who gather because they are fans and write positive messages about everything they like in the series, those who claim to be fans but obviously are not because they only write extremely aggressive negative comments against both the series and the fans who love it... yep, all the pieces in your description are here all right. :-bd
Well I wasn't going to do this again because you don't seem to be very responsive to questions but do you think just maybe. pretty please you could provide a single shred of evidence for any of the allegations you made in your last attack on me.

Because I have asked several times now and I'm sure you wouldn't want people to think you're making unjustified complaints against other posters on the forum.

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 2-04-18 Your Big Secret

Post by Error of Logic » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:25 pm

@ Vitocap:
The problem with a simple description is that it is too simple.
And being simple, it is easily used for any number of interpretations and uses, including the wrong ones.
I prefer a definition which is precise, exhaustive, yet also comprehensible to the layman.

On a personal note, I would prefer you not ascribe to me 'pride' in finding this definition. I was content to have found it, as it matched the criteria I looked for in a definition. Assigning me motives and feelings of your own choosing only hampers discussion. You could have asked me, 'Are you proud to have found this? Will you not accept a different interpretation?' and we could have discussed the matter.
Instead, you appear to be trying to make me look silly. Or was this not your intention?

I would add that you appear to be demonstrating a desire for simplification even in your accusations towards those of us who are on the opposite side in the recent series of arguments -- and I would ask you show us the courtesy to realise we are not one-dimensional caricatures to be dismissed, but people just as you are people. I do not share your view of recent events in the comic. This has not lead me to accuse you of being some kind of mindless thrall to everything the creative team has put forward -- and I am not doing so now.
There are indeed differences between those of us who have voiced discomfort with many of the recent events in the comics, and the individual who has outright accused Dave01 of a shameful mindset, then followed up with a distasteful slur towards your compatriot, Rosa. In spite of your simplification, we differ in manners, we differ in method, we differ in conviction, and we differ in our appreciation of the comic. We were here, enjoying the story well before you and your coterie became our most vocal denouncers for criticising the recent twists of the tale. We are still here, invested with the characters to the point that we wonder about future twists and hope for a good ending for the characters we came to love.

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 2-04-18 Your Big Secret

Post by DarkAsh » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:35 pm

@VitoCap, I think it’s a fitting picture as it’s from the “Terrible Tourist”. And what is a troll but a tourist, to a forum in this. case, who’s acting terribly, like Donald does in Poco Pausa, Hondorica.

Hmm, one of Carl Barks’ lesser known stories, that doesn’t get reprinted often. A grand total of three times in the USA, not including compilations, with the last time being in 1995. Does this mean you're a fan of his too?

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 2-04-18 Your Big Secret

Post by Vitocap » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:11 am

YES!!!
Good answer! Or, as the saying goes, give this man a cigar! :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

Rosa wasn't too far off the mark with "Secret of Hondorica" -- as that one also was a Hondorica story. It wasn't that often that Donald and the kids visited Hondorica: one time was in "Secret of Hondorica," another in "Terrible Tourist," and... well, I actually can't remember if there was a third time. Tee hee. :p

In any case, that scene is, as you guessed, the last panel of the final page of "Terrible Tourist," where we find that Donald, after making a real-life troll of himself for ten pages, finally received a punishment fitting for a troll (in other words, the boot). ;))

I am indeed a Carl Barks fan, the third one in the forum who bravely steps forward and comes out, right after you and Rosa! :YMPEACE: If there are more of us lurking around, I hope they will be inspired by our example and come out too! :ymhug:

And, as promised, your reward:

Image

A virtual cigar isn't as fragrant as a real cigar... but it's milder on your lungs, which is definitely a good thing. :-bd
We, the old ghosts of Pizen Bluff, who still roam about this dead forum screaming imprecations at the characters and whatnot.

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 2-04-18 Your Big Secret

Post by DarkAsh » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:56 am

Vitocap wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:11 am
YES!!!
Good answer! Or, as the saying goes, give this man a cigar! :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

Rosa wasn't too far off the mark with "Secret of Hondorica" -- as that one also was a Hondorica story. It wasn't that often that Donald and the kids visited Hondorica: one time was in "Secret of Hondorica," another in "Terrible Tourist," and... well, I actually can't remember if there was a third time. Tee hee. :p

In any case, that scene is, as you guessed, the last panel of the final page of "Terrible Tourist," where we find that Donald, after making a real-life troll of himself for ten pages, finally received a punishment fitting for a troll (in other words, the boot). ;))

I am indeed a Carl Barks fan, the third one in the forum who bravely steps forward and comes out, right after you and Rosa! :YMPEACE: If there are more of us lurking around, I hope they will be inspired by our example and come out too! :ymhug:

And, as promised, your reward:

Image

A virtual cigar isn't as fragrant as a real cigar... but it's milder on your lungs, which is definitely a good thing. :-bd
Yeah, thanks. I'll stick it in my virtual humidor. I can't recall if Hondorica was used outside of those two stories, but I'd be amazed if we would have used that fictitious country a third time. It's kind of surprising he used it twice.

And welcome to the growing sub-fan group within the EC/MC/DC forums. :ymparty: If there are more CB fans out there, maybe it will help bring peace to these troubled times.

Also, now that I think about it, is Rosa's screen name based on the heir apparent to Barks, Don Rosa. Nah, probably just a coincidence.

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 2-04-18 Your Big Secret

Post by Rosa » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:28 pm

Aw, that's the one I meant: Terrible Tourist!!
I was thinking about that story, but when I tried to recall the name somehow it came out as 'Secret of Hondorica' which is a totally different story... I guess it's 'cause I remembered Terrible Tourist was set in Hondorica, and there was Hondorica in the title of the other one, and so I got tragically mixed up. Damn, and it was a good cigar too, real Cuban habano. :(

@Vitocap, I had never realized it before but you're right: Donald in this story can be compared to a real life troll. He keeps barging into the house and the property of the D. C. (hah, spoiler avoided!) even tho he doesn't like the guy and he is not wanted there, and all for what? To fill the place with discordant noises and annoy the residents! Haha, he totally deserves that boot to the butt.

@DarkAsh, my username 'Rosa' is the name of my mother. *smile* But it's nice that it's also the surname of Don Rosa, who idolized Carl Barks and tried very hard to follow in CB's footsteps. So anyway, in the end, yeah: just a cool coincidence.
"I assume that the creative team does read the boards and that, through
the troll swill, they can find a decent thought-provoking post from time
to time. Other than money (of course), praise and intelligent discussion
concerning an artist's work has to be their life blood."

(by @worldshaking00)

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http://image.ibb.co/jtqXqx/output.gif

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