Dangerously Chloe 25-12-17 Clothes Jumping Thingy

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Fluffy
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 25-12-17 Clothes Jumping Thingy

Post by Fluffy » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:31 pm

Name one instance when Chloe cast a glam spell - on anyone - least of all, on herself. Every time she's appeared different to others (when she posed as a waitress, or as Teddy, etc) is was her shapeshifting - something she can only do to herself. Once again, the only time she was able to do that to others was when she had worn the Doompanties. Chloe has never been shown to be capable of performing a shapeshift on anyone without them.

Assuming she can do it to others, simply based on the fact that others (like Tia and Jacqui; a demonic goddess and a witch, respectively - neither being succubus, which is a different cryptid entirely) is just you desperately grasping at straws.

Until it actually happens in the series - kindly stop trying to make it a thing.
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Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 25-12-17 Clothes Jumping Thingy

Post by Gotoh » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:47 pm

Fluffy wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:31 pm
Name one instance when Chloe cast a glam spell - on anyone - least of all, on herself.
Did you read my last post at all? ↓
Gotoh wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:04 pm
Just because she hasn't yet, doesn't mean that she can't. And, even if she can, there's no reason to assume she necessarily would.
Fluffy wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:31 pm
Until it actually happens in the series - kindly stop trying to make it a thing.
I haven't said that it is, only that it might be.

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Fluffy
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 25-12-17 Clothes Jumping Thingy

Post by Fluffy » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:38 pm

Then, to correct myself.

Stop trying to say something might be/might happen when there's been no evidence that even remotely hints that it's even a possibility.

Better?
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tau neutrino
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 25-12-17 Clothes Jumping Thingy

Post by tau neutrino » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:27 pm

Gotoh wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:43 pm
tau neutrino wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:04 pm
There's no logical reason for Chloe to be able to make another succubus's horns disappear just because she can do it to her own.
Logic disagrees with you, because you can't teach someone else without knowing how to do it yourself first. Which is why Tia was able to instruct Nina while they were in Layla's psyche and she took over when she saw Nina was struggling with it.

In much the same way that a driving instructor can take over for a student driver, if it becomes necessary.
Only if there are dual controls. The instructor can't actually control the student's body, which is what you're claiming.
Gotoh wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:43 pm
tau neutrino wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:04 pm
Tia was altering the mental landscape that she and Nina were both in. Totally different situation.
Not unless you read a different comic. Tia did not alter the landscape, she projected clothing for Nina.
As X3N0-Life-Form states, the whole place was a mental landscape in Layla's mind. Which is why Tia can make clothes out of thin air when she can't in the real world.
Gotoh wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:25 pm
@X3N0-Life-Form: I get what tau's saying, I'm simply saying it doesn't make sense.

To use a (hopefully) better analogy: it'd be like a seamstress teaching a student how to make alterations to their clothing. She can give instruction by talking them through it, or, if necessary, she can simply make the alteration for them.

Using tau's logic, he'd say: there's no reason to assume the seamstress can do that for her student, just because the she knows how to do it herself.

Whereas I'm saying: it wouldn't be possible for her to teach them if she couldn't.
(Pot calling the kettle black.) This is a power that affects the user. Ace can't transform someone else into a wolf. Sewing is something that affects an external object. If you want to use an analogy with teaching a skill, it would be one confined to the student's body, like whistling, or doing a vault in gymnastics, or doing a triple axle in ice skating. The teacher can show how she does it, but not do it for the student.

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 25-12-17 Clothes Jumping Thingy

Post by Gotoh » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:22 pm

tau neutrino wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:27 pm
Only if there are dual controls.
You've never heard of the driver and passenger switching seats? :-\
tau neutrino wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:27 pm
The instructor can't actually control the student's body, which is what you're claiming.
I said "take over for them" not "take over their body".
tau neutrino wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:27 pm
the whole place was a mental landscape in Layla's mind. Which is why Tia can make clothes out of thin air when she can't in the real world.
She taught Niege and Sorbet how to draw the spell circle, when she could've done it herself. That was in the real world. Satisfied?
tau neutrino wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:27 pm
If you want to use an analogy with teaching a skill, it would be one confined to the student's body.
No, the analogy depends on the teacher's ability to instruct, or intercede on the student's behalf. I never said, or even implied taking over the student's body. Chloe doesn't have to take control of Abby's limbs to cast a glam on her.

Neither does Jacqui. She can either cast a glam on herself, or her friends, or multiple opponents at once. And you'll notice she didn't assume control of any of their bodies either. If you're going to try to argue a point, at least understand what's being argued.

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Fluffy
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 25-12-17 Clothes Jumping Thingy

Post by Fluffy » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:27 pm

Chloe has never given any indication that she can casts glam spells. She is a succubus, not a witch. She's capable of shapeshifting (i.e. - transforming her own body); and has only been able to transform others when injecting them with her blood (which was an unexpected happenstance that she has no control over) or using the doom panties (which was a magical artifact that belonged to Tia - or were Tia, herself; considering they were specifically needed to bring Tia into the mortal realm).

There is no indication that Chloe can make Abby's appendages disappear if Abby can't accomplish that task, on her own; so, saying that there's a possibility that Chloe 'could' to it, but 'hasn't' for whatever reason, makes it seem like your trying to rewrite the character to fit your idea on what she 'should' be.
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 25-12-17 Clothes Jumping Thingy

Post by Gotoh » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:59 pm

Fluffy wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:27 pm
Chloe has never given any indication that she can casts glam spells.
Actually, I've gone back and re-read most of the Doompanties arc and it so happens that there is a precedence for it. Look at what Adora told Chloe in panels 3-5, here.

Granted, she was wearing the Doompanties at the time, but we've seen her demonstrate the exact same ablitiy Adora mentioned each time Chloe has altered her appearance without them. Which suggests it's an ability she naturally would have learned in due time. We also saw her reduce her own cup size, then she made Cess and Laura's bigger. But most importantly, look at panel 3, she used a glam spell to disguise herself as Layla.

Since the implication is the Doompanties draw out the wearer's natural ability, theoretically, it should be possible for her to do the same thing even without them. So yes, she can use a glam spell.

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 25-12-17 Clothes Jumping Thingy

Post by Fluffy » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:31 pm

Your point?

Chloe is a shapeshifter! This is an established ability that all succubus have at their disposal - as they can become whatever their prey needs them to be, making them easier to ensnare so the succubus can feed. Adora's comment in those panels is simply acknowledging that because of her sudden growth spurt, Chloe can shapeshift into whatever age/ appearance she wants/needs to be (including looking like others - like Layla) . The doompanties only unlocked that ability sooner than expected. In general, Chloe never needed the panties to shapeshift - she would have gotten to that point on her own, eventually.

And, if those panties were either Tia's - or Tia herself (in panty form). If her panties allowed her to work her chaotic mojo through Chloe, it would explain why Chloe could transmute others back then, but not now.
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 25-12-17 Clothes Jumping Thingy

Post by Gotoh » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:55 pm

Fluffy wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:31 pm
Your point?
You said there was no evidence that Chloe ever used a glam spell, yet she's done it at least once in the past.

Rain is also a shapeshifter, yet we don't see the same sparkle effect. Whereas we did see the sparkles whenever Jacqui and Chloe have done it. Since we know for certain that Jacqui specializes glams and the effect was the same as when Chloe disguised herself as Layla, I'd say that suggests she also used a glam.
Fluffy wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:31 pm
And, if those panties were either Tia's - or Tia herself (in panty form).
That wouldn't make sense. Tia is a chaos demoness, whereas the Doompanties were made specifically for succubi. Plus, she contacted Cess, Laura, and Nina before they even broke into Adora's house to get the panties. So I doubt their influence on Chloe's abilities had anything to do with Tia.

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 25-12-17 Clothes Jumping Thingy

Post by Fluffy » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:04 pm

And there isn't - as Chloe using her shapeshifting ability is completely different than casting a glamor spell on herself/others. What do you think a shapeshift would look like in this universe, if not a fluid shift from one thing to another?

And considering those panties were specifically needed to summon Tia - and disappeared/ceased to exist after she was summoned - I'm willing to bet those panties contained her power specifically (which enhanced a succubus' abilities; plus giving them a little extra while wearing them - such as, the ability of transforming others). Something else to keep in mind is that as soon as the panties were re-sealed; any physical alteration Chloe did to Cessily and Laura were immediately reversed and they returned to their normal physical forms - but, Chloe still maintained her aged up figure/improved eyesight - the only thing changing back were her horns.

If Chloe's power was behind Cessily and Laura's physical transformations, there would be no reason for them to revert back to their normal selves. The only explanation is that the Doompanties were behind that ability - and once they were sealed, its power was nullified.

So, again - until Chloe show she can transform others at will on her own merit (i.e. no assist from magical items owned by demonic chaotic goddesses), there's nothing saying that she actually can and is just holding back to accommodate Abby and Teddy's whims.
Last edited by Fluffy on Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 25-12-17 Clothes Jumping Thingy

Post by Gotoh » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:23 pm

Fluffy wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:04 pm
And there isn't - as Chloe using her shapeshifting ability is completely different than casting a glamor spell on herself/others.
So you're choosing to ignore the scene where Chloe disguised herself as Layla? 'cuz she did it before she even walked into Purvis' office (sparkles included, just like Jacqui after she walked out of Mr. Delatorre's office).
Fluffy wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:04 pm
And considering those panties were specifically needed to summon Tia
They didn't need the panties at all. According to Cessily, any demonic artifact would've sufficed so long as it was powerful enough to annihilate a town. They could just as easily have used the Tiresias Orb, given how powerful Mel said it was.

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 25-12-17 Clothes Jumping Thingy

Post by Fluffy » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:41 pm

Yes, I'm choosing to ignore it - as a succubus has no use for a glamor when they can simply shapeshift into whoever/whatever they want or whatever someone else wants them to be (it's in their nature - how are you missing that established key fact?). I see the sparkle effect as just that - an effect to show that a physical transformation was taking place. It just happens to have the same shimmer effect of a magical glamor. Doesn't make them the same thing. Hell, there was sparkles around the doompanties when they were used during the ritual - was that a glamor, too?

And how easily you forget that not only did the ouija board tell the girls what page to turn to in order to find out how to summon demons; but told them to use those panties, specifically. It can't be a coincidence.
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 25-12-17 Clothes Jumping Thingy

Post by Gotoh » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:04 am

Fluffy wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:41 pm
Yes, I'm choosing to ignore it - as a succubus has no use for a glamor when they can simply shapeshift into whoever/whatever they want or whatever someone else wants them to be
Except Chloe had had already transformed before setting foot inside Purvis' office. If she were automatically changing into who he desired, the transformation wouldn't have happened 'til Purvis laid eyes on her.

Besides, Jacqui used a glam on Sandi that had the same effect by showing Sandi what she desired.
Fluffy wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:41 pm
And how easily you forget that not only did the ouija board tell the girls what page to turn to in order to find out how to summon demons; but told them to use those panties, specifically. It can't be a coincidence.
Nina made that assumption before the message was completed (they were only on "T" when she interjected). So we'll probably never know what the actual message would've been. But according to the tome they were using, it could've been any cursed artifact as long as it was powerful enough to meet the criteria.

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 25-12-17 Clothes Jumping Thingy

Post by X3N0-Life-Form » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:07 pm

Oh for fuck's sake, I know you like playing the devil's advocate for the sake of arguing, but this is just annoying right now : nobody said *anything* about automatically shifting into someone's desire. Chloe is the one that decides on some level what she shape-shifts herself into, it has been clearly established multiple times, whether it's shrinking her boobs or into Layla way back in EC, shifting into younger her, Abby, adult Abby, Teddy and probably a few dozen other instances in DC itself. Oh, and , or Pandora shifted into Chloe back when she was introduced. When Pandora lock-shifted Chloe into herself, she had to use some special lipstick thingy, IIRC, she didn't use her own powers.

Glamour has absolutely never, ever been implied to be part of a succubus' power set, and honestly between the pheromones & shapeshifting, they wouldn't need it most of the time. So it seems a bit weird to focus on glamour while force-shifting Abby into someone else seems a much more plausible option.

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Re: Dangerously Chloe 25-12-17 Clothes Jumping Thingy

Post by Gotoh » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:06 pm

X3N0-Life-Form wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:07 pm
Oh for fuck's sake, I know you like playing the devil's advocate for the sake of arguing, but this is just annoying right now : nobody said *anything* about automatically shifting into someone's desire.
My stance has nothing to do with playing devil's advocate, or arguing for the sake of it. I'm saying that I doubt Chloe was only shapeshifting at that point.

If you saw two people do something that looked similar, or near identical, would you think, 'hey, I've seen someone else do that that before'? Or would you honestly think one was somehow "different"?

There's a reason for the saying, 'looks like a duck, quacks like a duck'. It isn't always accurate, but it usually isn't far off either.

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