thedoctornw wrote:Ha, I missed page 4--so, FemAce is the /real/ Ace, and MaleAce is repressing. Clearly Ace has some things to work out--and Kade and Dio are off the hook, since it's all Ace's decision in the end. ;)
Really failing to see how you've come to this conclusion.
Acina is a split personality, born from repression. This does not make her the dominant personality, as she didn't exist prior to the gender bending orb's influence. The only thing that needs to be done is to tell Ace what's been happening so he can seek the proper help to rid himself of the other personality who's been making his life Hell.
But, then - that wouldn't be 'funny', would it? Better to leave Ace in the dark and let his other personality, Dio and Kade use his obliviousness to their mutual advantage.
You know, for the LOLZ.
Last edited by Fluffy on Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Please, don't come to me expecting me to fix your problems.
I'm really surprised that anyone is shocked by Dio's actions. He's been a hormone-driven a-hole since his first appearance. He wanted to cheat on Layla with her younger sister just because Nina suddenly grew a figure. He didn't chase after other girls mainly because he's elitest and speciesist.
Kade, while being somewhat less of an a-hole is even more hormone-addled. It's been shown that he will chase after anything in a skirt and has difficulty taking no for an answer. His major redeeming feature is his easy going personality. You can't see him pushing too far, its not his style. He's persistant, but not a rapist.
Which brings up the important question of why the hell would Ace trust these two? That's easily answered. It's because there are only SEVEN named male cast members in this comic, three of them are adults and the seventh is stuck in a doll. EC suffers from the same problem as Archie in its earlier days or well, just about any lower budget sitcom. The comic during its original run focused on the same small cast of characters which was additionally pretty female-centric. Compare the total cast size of EC to MC or DC. MC is almost an exponential leap in cast size, even if the guys are still in single digits.
Now that they wanted to write an arc centering around Ace, the cartoonists have a problem: he has no male friends. It would have been better to create new characters for the arc, but then how do you introduce them in only six strips? Instead, like an episode of Saved By the Bell, you repurpose the characters you have into the roles you need. Its clumsy and I think it points out that the comic, its team and its fans would be better served by longer arcs.
As far as the rest of the complaints, I'm holding my tongue until I've cooled down some. This forum is one comment away from a flame war and I wouldn't be surprised if Don is thinking of locking the topic. I'd rather not have that myself.
The fact that Dio is an elitist vampire and the fact he loathes Ace, is what makes him out of character in this mini-comic. He has no reason to offer Ace any help with his problem (both due to the elitism and the fact that Nina likes Ace), would never hang out with Kade (who is a rival for Layla's affection) and most certainly wouldn't give a female werewolf the time of day - no matter how apparently sexy she is.
Ace is also very much out of character - as he would never seek help from guys he doesn't like (he thinks Kade is a jerk and hates Dio). If Ace wanted someone he could trust to help him out with his predicament, he would have asked Brooke to help him out - as they once dated and still seemed to be on friendly terms.
The only reason this comic came into being is that it was one of the tiers in the Kickstarter (a comic starring Dio, Kade and Ace); it just would have been nice if the writer could have come up with a less controversial plot.
And a thread being locked because the majority of readers hated where the plot went? Let us hope not; because I think it's important that the writer reads and acknowledges the criticism.
Please, don't come to me expecting me to fix your problems.
For the sake of clarity, I'd like to specify that Kade's and Dio's actions are not particularly shocking to me. They're eyebrow-raising, of course, but that would be the case with even the most unrepentant serial rapist. Ace going to two known skeezeballs for help is strange enough, but I suppose their uncharacteristic response can be forgiven, seeing as they start off with altruistic intentions. If I didn't know better, I could possibly believe that these three might even bond a bit by solving Ace's problem. But now comes the actual nature of the problem, and here's where the premise starts to lose me. Ace's incessant gender-bending (and all ensuing baggage), combined with puberty and his natural lycanthropy, has resulted in him randomly swapping gender during the full moon. This alone isn't so horribly problematic, since it's only for one night and could probably be fixed without much fuss.
However. Said gender-swap involves a complete repression of Ace's actual consciousness, to be replaced by a female-identifying version of himself claiming to be the "real" identity. Said female self immediately bags on the actual Ace, followed by a deliberate seduction of the people he trusted to help him. Already, this "real" version of him is actively sabotaging his attempts at figuring out the source of his problem. Is anyone else getting Persona 4 vibes from this? The problem in need of solving is so needlessly complex, I find myself wondering why this, of all things, is the premise of the story. Regardless, Kade and Dio, rather than follow through with the arrangement to which they had agreed, merrily go along with "Acina"'s seduction. So, now, their reason for even being at Ace's house is tossed out the window in favor of taking his body out on a three-person date.
Admittedly, I have to give props to the two scumbags for making incredible use of the single night in which this metamorphosis takes place. They manage to play at least one round of golf, see a movie, go dancing, and then make their way back to Ace's room for the main event. Here's where the premise has lost my faith entirely. I could forgive just about all of this tomfoolery, if the script had simply not included the making out and possible-knocking-on-probable threesome. Sure, it would have been strange for the two to take "Acina" out on a date, but that could be written off as making the best of an awkward situation, and they could still explain what happened in the morning, with Ace possibly being amused by it all and at least knowing the nature of his dilemma. But, no. For whatever reason, things just had to get hot and heavy, and the story is so much worse for it. Having, at the absolute least, made out with their "buddy" while he was in this state, Kade and Dio really weren't left with any option but to lie directly to Ace's face. Oh, and to put the rotten, moldy cherry on top of this sundae of treachery and deceit, these two knuckle-draggers heavily imply, if not outright state, that they will continue to do this each time Ace undergoes the baffling change that set this story in motion, on an indefinite basis, until such time as Ace manages to solve his problem without them.
So, to sum it all up as concisely as possible: Ace has a problem causing him great distress, and so he goes to two of the guys from his social circle, confiding in them and trusting them to help him solve his problem. They agree, and stay the night at his house. The problem makes itself known, and they immediately discard their altruistic intentions to satisfy their own libidos. The next morning, the problem has not been solved, and is actually somehow worse than ever. All of this is, to my understanding, intended to be amusing. Having laid all of this out, I don't see how there could still be any question of why this story has been so poorly received. The creators can do (and have done) much better than this, and I would argue that they've not done worse, at least not for quite some time.
Acina seems so....skeezy. Like she's doing a leer and a smirk at the same time and has been since she showed up. Girl Ace was very cute and..idk....This Girl Ace is... not.
Lokitsu wrote:This forum is one comment away from a flame war and I wouldn't be surprised if Don is thinking of locking the topic. I'd rather not have that myself.
It's hardly a flame war when most users posting here agree.
The only way this horrible story gets fixed is by publishing one page where Ace sees this very same pages in the internet and yells something like "Damn, Blair, stop uploading your ridiculous fanfics about me!", thus turning it non-canon.
Until then, is a creepy story about a teenager suffering from split personality and two douchebags taking advantage of it, even when they know the truth, essentialy turning it into a rape story. And the worst part is that is played for laughs.
Last edited by LarsenSan on Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dorgengoa wrote:Ace going to two known skeezeballs for help is strange enough
Same here.
Dorgengoa wrote:but I suppose their uncharacteristic response can be forgiven, seeing as they start off with altruistic intentions.
Dio's intentions were never altruistic, he's the one that brought the red dress 'cuz he was planning to dress Ace in it for his amusement. But once fem-Ace (not to be confused with girl-Ace) showed up and basically offered to put out for them, all either of them saw was a chance at a piece of ***.
Aside from that, I agree with the overall sentiment. As it stands, Ace and Ash are the only two male characters (among EC/MC's cast) with any redeeming qualities.
@Fluffy: Ash has scruples. The worst that can be said about him is that he might only be using Faith to get information on AA's defenses. Otherwise, he's been a pretty decent sort.
Ash looks out for his fellow students, he was also respectful of girl-Kade's decision (under the misunderstanding that she was post-op) while letting her down gently, he tried to defend Tiff when he thought she was in an abusive relationship with Dio (another misunderstanding, which is why Ash beat the tar out of him), and he even tried to help Brooke vent after her breakup with Ace.
LarsenSan wrote:It's hardly a flame war when most user posting here agree.
I'm the one who seems to be being yelled at for opinions most and even I don't think it's good. I'm more willing to give credence to the idea of two people sharing a single body and the implications thereof and kinda disappointed that those ideas go unexplored. Mostly because if she's NOT a separate intelligence then the implications get a lot, lot worse.
If Grace IS a separate intelligence then they had consensual sex with her...which runs into 'Dealing with the concept of consent when two people share the same body but only one mind is active at a time'. Can the active mind give consent? Do both need to? Where does one person's right to self-determination and bodily autonomy run into another's right to the same when both of those people need to share the same body? It's skeevy and very, VERY questionable but the question of rape is a complex one that could really test the legal and philosophical system as we know it as timesharing a body doesn't have precedent.
If Grace is just Ace but under some unnatural changes to his thought patterns then...no. That's rape due to an inability to give proper consent in his right frame of mind.
'cuz the implication is they not only shagged Ace and lied to cover it up, but they're planning to keep taking advantage of him. How is this supposed to be funny?
Because when you add magic and mythological creatures into this the same rules that we apply to homosapiens doesn't really work.
Grace is her own person and I actually find it sadder that she's stuck inside Ace every other day and can't get out so if she chooses to go all the way with Ace's friends that's her business. When Ace goes through this metamorphosis his body becomes hers. And while you may frown upon Dio and Kade for taking advantage it's better that Grace is among friends instead of strangers who might not react well if they wake up in bed with a young man. They're not being entirely altruistic, but it's really for the best considering the alternatives. Perhaps they should tell Ace what really happens every month, but the means of resolving it might eliminate the Grace personality and I imagine that would have some ethical issues. Besides there may be a payoff for Ace in that the back of his hands appear to have lost its fur. Perhaps transforming into Grace is accelerating his maturity and he'll be back to what he was before Tia reversed the spell.
But, she's not her own person - as she never existed to begin with. As mentioned before by others, Ace was still Ace - even as a girl. The fact that he accepted he may be stuck with a girl's body didn't change who he was as a person.
Well that is your interpretation of magical events and like I previously stated when magic is involved the same rules don't necessarily apply. I look at Grace the same way I look at a duplicate person created by a transporter accident on Star Trek. Grace was a growing part of Ace's personality when he was a girl, but didn't disappear when he changed back to being a boy and after Tia's spell she can use the time of the month Ace turns into a werewolf to become a girl. And who are you to say that she's not a person? Dio and Kade got to actually spend time with her and it looks like they had a lot of fun. They may be horny boys, but it would be cruel of them to call Dr. Twigitt to eliminate this personality the next day after all the time they spent.
Fluffy wrote:And Kade and Dio - Ace's friends? Hardly! Ace barely tolerates Kade and did his best to avoid Kade's advances when he was a girl, and Ace and Dio absolutely hated each other.The whole 'Acina is now her own person, with her own separate personality' and is willing to make out with two men she could barely stand when Ace was a girl is just an excuse to put Ace in a situation that he would never have consented to while magically transitioned.
Ace may find him annoying, but he certainly hangs out with Kade enough times and he's the one he asked for help. I'll admit I find it strange that Dio was with Kade at the time, but Ms. Lagace explained that he's become the Reginald to Kade's Archie and I accept that. Besides someone like Dio needs people like Ace to feel superior over so I don't have a problem with him inviting him over too since he doesn't seem to have that many friends at school. As for Grace she likes cute boys and they fit the bill and she seems quite adept at handling them in a way Ace could not with Brooke and Melissa. I find it amusing that as bigoted as Dio is about werewolves he'll happily lay down with a hot one.
Fluffy wrote:There is no excuse that can validate what is taking place in this 6 page comic.
Once again we see different things. I see these 3 having fun and then Ace wakes up the next day in a dress and the others feigning ignorance over what happened last night and looking to take advantage of the situation when it's that time of the month. I have read so many arguments about consent, but how does anyone even know they had sex? I would think Grace would take off her dress before doing the deed.
I agree with Judanas that so few people are willing to explore the implications of 2 distinct and independent personalities sharing the same body and just compare this whole thing to date rape. If my eyes could roll any harder they'd have spun out of my skull by now.
Let me begin by saying that anyone taking advantage of a human (Male or female) deserves, at least, to have the crap kicked out of them.
Buuuuuut....
You'll notice that I said human.
People are forgetting that we're talking about non-humans here and that their morality is, in many ways, just as non-human.
This is a re-occurring plot point in sci-fi and fantasy. A person will be dealing with an alien/monster/elf/whatever and cannot convey something that's basic to us, but that the other creature simply cannot grasp. As Robert Heinlein once said, "It's like trying to explain a rainbow to an earthworm."
Dio and all the other vamps feed off of people. Sure, they don't kill people and yes, it's played for laughs. But, it's a shocking form of assault nonetheless. In all of these comics, no one's ever pointed that out.
And Kade? His approach to sexuality is, shall we say, rather easy. When he was changed into a girl, there was plenty of hints that he gave it up quite frequently. I don't know if that's typical to "Cat People" or just Kade. But, he probably assumed that Grace would have the same attitude towards shapeshifting and sex that he had.
Finally, who knows how Werewolves would view the situation? Someone who already changes their shape on a regular basis might accept the fact that an alter-ego would assume his body on a regular basis. Ace might be pissed that Grace was sleeping with his male friends. However, he might also acknowledge that she is a part of him and has a right to her own time and her own choices.
The point is that, by our standards, this is sexual assault. But, you can't use real-life standards on a situation that is not even remotely realistic.
brasca wrote:
Once again we see different things. I see these 3 having fun and then Ace wakes up the next day in a dress and the others feigning ignorance over what happened last night and looking to take advantage of the situation when it's that time of the month. I have read so many arguments about consent, but how does anyone even know they had sex? I would think Grace would take off her dress before doing the deed.
Consent isn't just limited to intercourse, you know. We have a term for intercourse that happens without consent (rape), but we also have terms for other interactions that happen without consent (assault and harassment, sexual or otherwise).
