Eerie Cuties 11-05-16 Siren Brawl pg 12 of 12

[Varanus]

Because lives were saved. For a heroine, that's an accomplishment. She and Tracy can't be everywhere or protect everyone, but their presence was enough to cause Marine to retreat.

Those lives were saved, but assuming a siren's food intake is consistent over time the end result is that simply other people will die in their place and the same number will die as if she had never helped at all. Saving five innocent lives and causing five other innocents to die instead and not caring about that doesn't sound that "heroic," especially given Tiff shows no plans to do anything else about the siren, warn other hunter groups to safeguard beaches, etc.

I didn't get the impression that she was meant to be sympathetic. We were given fair warning that there are cryptids who eat humans and that their sense of morality isn't the same as ours.

We were told there are some that eat humans, but whole species? And as far as I know we have not been told they HAVE to eat humans, more the indications have been its a matter of choice. And if there are any that do have to it would at least be nice to get some explanation as to why as human flesh shouldn't be any different from animal flesh. And if they are after some unique magical/spiritual energy that humans have then there is no known reason they should have to kill to gain it. Vampires and succubi certainly don't have to.

That doesn't necessarily make them evil, just different. From the cryptids' point of view, they're honestly not doing anything wrong. They need to eat and we happen to be their food source. It's simply a fact of their existence.

Again, the trouble is we don't know if this is the case. Unless there is some writer's quote I am not aware of.

And if you're killing and eating something of an equal emotional and intellectual level to yourself, just how can it not be called evil? That only works if their definition of evil is different. In which case you still can't say they are not evil, just that they are not evil by their own standards (which again it would be nice to see explained beyond "I'm hungry").

Its just hard to accept "blue and orange morality" when said morality is not explained and every other cryptid we've seen in the series has a at least somewhat comprehensible morality that actually tends to have more in common with humans than it does differences.

[Tako]

I am not sure about the reboot, but I'll give it a chance. This Siren Brawl story was fun. I especially like the fact that it was in color. As for that last panel; if Dusky is grossed out by his sister hugging him while bare breasted, he can at least take solace in the fact that he was wearing a shirt.

Considering what Dusky walked in on in the bonus strip the hug is preferable.

I've enjoyed this reboot and look forward to more Magic Chicks, but I hope this doesn't mean Sticky Dilly Buns will be set back until this new chapter finishes.

What bonus strip?

[brasca]

The latest Eerie Cuties volume has a short strip where Dusky walks in on Tiffany doing her nude yoga

[Gotoh]

Those lives were saved, but assuming a siren's food intake is consistent over time the end result is that simply other people will die in their place and the same number will die as if she had never helped at all.

We don't know how many victims there were, 'cuz Tiff never specfied. We don't even know how many Marine was personally responsible for and which ones were just unfortunate accidents. So anything here, is speculative at best.

Saving five innocent lives and causing five other innocents to die instead and not caring about that doesn't sound that "heroic," especially given Tiff shows no plans to do anything else about the siren, warn other hunter groups to safeguard beaches, etc.

First, look back at the 10th strip, that was more than five people. It was a crowd. Second, we have no way of knowing what action Tiff will take afterward. You're simply assuming she's satisfied and won't take any.

She and Tracy are a pair of ditzes, but there's no denying that their actions were heroic.

We were told there are some that eat humans, but whole species?

Dave01 said it was "a lot of them" (link) and even specified how cryptids see it.

And as far as I know we have not been told they HAVE to eat humans, more the indications have been its a matter of choice. And if there are any that do have to it would at least be nice to get some explanation as to why as human flesh shouldn't be any different from animal flesh.

Because we're what they eat? Do we need an explanation for why iions eat gazelle, or do we simply accept that they do 'cuz it's in their nature as predators?

Admittedly, they've never explicitly said it's necessary for them to feed on humans, but the implication is there. I don't see why that's so hard to accept. It's a common element in most monster fiction.

And if you're killing and eating something of an equal emotional and intellectual level to yourself, just how can it not be called evil? That only works if their definition of evil is different.

That only works if you're loking at it from our sense of right and wrong.

Its just hard to accept "blue and orange morality" when said morality is not explained and every other cryptid we've seen in the series has a at least somewhat comprehensible morality that actually tends to have more in common with humans than it does differences.

Come again? 'cuz we've seen plenty that says otherwise.

• 1. Ana attempted to banish her classmates to the Shadow Realm, where they might've been killed had she not botched the spell and stranded herself there, over a petty grudge. Was completely blasé about the thousands who died in her name, during the revolt she lead against the Lord of Shadows. And bragged about the death and destruction she and her army caused when they invaded Montreal.

• 2. Mel saw nothing wrong with Brooke eating someone, so long as they weren't cute. Sound familiar?

• 3. Hecate gave Ø f*cks about one of her own followers dying right in front of her and even joked about it as it was happening. And later set Cerise up to be killed by her own friend, even though Cerise was jumping through hoops to try to please her.

• 4. And speaking of Cerise, do I need to bring up how she tried to murder her two best friends, over a grudge she had against Mel. Plus, seven other girls who had nothing to do with it? Then proceeded to mindf*ck the student body at Artemis into being her adoring slaves?

...and those are just of the top of my head. Point being, EC/MC has repeatedly established the exact point Dave01 made. Their sense of morality isn't the same as ours, and those like Ana are outright evil - even by cryptid standards.

[Varanus]

First, look back at the 10th strip, that was more than five people. It was a crowd.

Just a random number I came up with as an example.

Because we're what they eat? Do we need an explanation for why iions eat gazelle, or do we simply accept that they do 'cuz it's in their nature as predators?

Lions eat all kinds of animals and they themselves are not sapient so that's not the best example. Your implications regarding human-eating cryptids is that they are so specialized that human flesh is somehow all they can eat.

Admittedly, they've never explicitly said it's necessary for them to feed on humans, but the implication is there. I don't see why that's so hard to accept. It's a common element in most monster fiction.

Is it? Normally in monster fiction if a monster kills and eats humans it is out of malice, a choice based on humans being extra "tasty" or simply not caring about things like sapience. So they largely choose to rather than have to. Its pretty rare for there to be a depiction of a monster that simply can't survive on anything except human flesh.

• 1. Ana attempted to banish her classmates to the Shadow Realm, where they might've been killed had she not botched the spell and stranded herself there, over a petty grudge. Was completely blasé about the thousands who died in her name, during the revolt she lead against the Lord of Shadows. And bragged about the death and destruction she and her army caused when they invaded Montreal.

And she is far from a typical witch, nor did she have to do any of that. She is (or at least was) a typical megalomaniac villain, pretty understandable as far as characters go.

• 2. Mel saw nothing wrong with Brooke eating someone, so long as they weren't cute. Sound familiar?

Hardly. Mel is a very sarcastic person and given how easily she got guilted into helping Tiffany when the wand implied she might die otherwise (and how she refused to use the sword the wand turned into on anyone in the scene you linked) I find it hard to believe she is really all that okay with people dying.

• 3. Hecate gave Ø f*cks about one of her own followers dying right in front of her and even joked about it as it was happening. And later set Cerise up to be killed by her own friend, even though Cerise was jumping through hoops to try to please her.

Again, comprehensible in the sense that she sees things from a more eternal perspective. To her dying is simply moving on to another existence and is even something a soul can learn from.

• 4. And speaking of Cerise, do I need to bring up how she tried to murder her two best friends, over a grudge she had against Mel. Plus, seven other girls who had nothing to do with it? Then proceeded to mindf*ck the student body at Artemis into being her adoring slaves?

And her behavior was pretty well established to have gone off the deep end by witch standards, not to mention how much her mind had been twisted by taking in power that was not meant for her.

...and those are just of the top of my head. Point being, EC/MC has repeatedly established the exact point Dave01 made. Their sense of morality isn't the same as ours, and those like Ana are outright evil - even by cryptid standards.

But do you see my point? We don't know anything about Marine's sense of morality. We just have an apathetic "gotta eat humans except when she doesn't" attitude. It's not a horrible sin for the comic, I was just hoping for/expected more given without any more depth to her I can't see her as even a character.

And by your very argument it could mean that Marine could be considered evil by siren standards, if most of them subsist on non sapient prey.

[Gotoh]

Lions eat all kinds of animals and they themselves are not sapient so that's not the best example. Your implications regarding human-eating cryptids is that they are so specialized that human flesh is somehow all they can eat.

Which ignores the point that the writer said cryptids think of eating humans the same way humans think of eating chicken. All both sides see, is food. So a lion eating a gazelle is a perfectly valid analogy.

Is it? Normally in monster fiction if a monster kills and eats humans it is out of malice, a choice based on humans being extra "tasty" or simply not caring about things like sapience.

And I've seen just as many where it honestly can't be helped. 'Phantom Quest Corp.' being a prime example. Bosco explained that, despite all he had done to try to go without it, he had to have blood. There was no way around it for him and, by starving himself, his health had declined to the point that he had become anemic.

Layla is another example, because we saw her suffer from blood starvation earlier in EC. But once her thirst was sated, she was fine.

And she is far from a typical witch, nor did she have to do any of that. She is (or at least was) a typical megalomaniac villain, pretty understandable as far as characters go.

It's assumed she's a witch because Mel is ½ witch, but we actually don't know what Ana is (or was prior to ending up in the Shadow Realm).

Think about it: Dakota said she was a human girl, who became a magical girl thanks to Mow and the wand. Who's to say the same wasn't true of Ana, until she wound up in the Shadow Realm and was mentored by the Lord of Shadows? After all, human magic users exist in the *C-verse, 'cuz there's an entire faction of them at Artemis.

Hardly. Mel is a very sarcastic person and given how easily she got guilted into helping Tiffany when the wand implied she might die otherwise (and how she refused to use the sword the wand turned into on anyone in the scene you linked) I find it hard to believe she is really all that okay with people dying.

Mel isn't going to do it herself, but has no issue with someone else doing it. She told Brooke to go eat a hobo. Just as she didn't care about Ash and Brooke's fight and griped that the wand had ruined her date for nothing. Just like she didn't care about the fight at the restaurant and said she hoped they killed each other - except for Ash, since he was cute (there it is again).

And her behavior was pretty well established to have gone off the deep end by witch standards, not to mention how much her mind had been twisted by taking in power that was not meant for her.

Fair point about Cerise, since I argued the same point. I forgot about that part.

But do you see my point? We don't know anything about Marine's sense of morality. We just have an apathetic "gotta eat humans except when she doesn't" attitude.

Because we've been told and shown that cryptids are generally apathetic towards human casualties. The only exceptions we've seen are Layla and her family, Brooke, Ace, and likely Kade as well.

[Varanus]

And I've seen just as many where it honestly can't be helped. 'Phantom Quest Corp.' being a prime example. Bosco explained that, despite all he had done to try to go without it, he had to have blood. There was no way around it for him and, by starving himself, his health had declined to the point that he had become anemic.

Layla is another example, because we saw her suffer from blood starvation earlier in EC. But once her thirst was sated, she was fine.

Then how did Nina survive for most of her life without any blood?

Regardless I was talking about having to kill and eat humans (and I am curious of examples of that, obviously sapient beings that need to non-fatally take human blood or energy are fairly common). Vampires don't need to feed on human blood, any blood seems to do (we've seen vampires feed on werewolf and succubus blood for instance), so they are not "that" specialized, and more importantly they don't need to kill to feed on blood, indeed they make t a rule not to in modern times.

Think about it: Dakota said she was a human girl, who became a magical girl thanks to Mow and the wand. Who's to say the same wasn't true of Ana, until she wound up in the Shadow Realm and was mentored by the Lord of Shadows? After all, human magic users exist in the *C-verse, 'cuz there's an entire faction of them at Artemis.

If she was human then why does she even factor into non-human moralities? Her morals certainly didn't change when she became more than human (given what she tried to do when she was presumed human), she just got the power to do things she couldn't before.

Mel isn't going to do it herself, but has no issue with someone else doing it. She told Brooke to go eat a hobo. Just as she didn't care about Ash and Brooke's fight and griped that the wand had ruined her date for nothing. Just like she didn't care about the fight at the restaurant and said she hoped they killed each other - except for Ash, since he was cute (there it is again).

And again, I don't see how you can take those words seriously when her behavior contradicts them. Mel's character is of a selfish person who doesn't often enjoy doing the right thing but usually chooses to do it anyway, not of someone who is forced by instincts to not care about the lives of others.

Because we've been told and shown that cryptids are generally apathetic towards human casualties. The only exceptions we've seen are Layla and her family, Brooke, Ace, and likely Kade as well.

And Mel when she showed she didn't want Tiffany to get killed. Cryptids shown in the series to be apathetic toward human casualties seem to be in the minority, or at least they have almost never received any focus whereas those that don't want humans killed are never treated as odd or counter to their culture (befriending or romancing a human on the other hand is another matter).

[Gotoh]

Then how did Nina survive for most of her life without any blood?

Because she's an exception, not the norm. The series made it a point to address that issue when Nina questioned it, herself. It's also implied that it was stunting Nina's growth, which is why she only looked half her age for most of the comic.

Regardless I was talking about having to kill and eat humans (and I am curious of examples of that

Zombies? The vampires from 'Blade', who literally farmed humans like cattle - complete with private nightclubs and slaughterhouses, where their human victims were being lead to their deaths. Also movies like 'Critters' and 'Tremors'.

Vampires don't need to feed on human blood, any blood seems to do (we've seen vampires feed on werewolf and succubus blood for instance), so they are not "that" specialized, and more importantly they don't need to kill to feed on blood, indeed they make it a rule not to in modern times.

We've only seen that with the Delacroix Family. The rest of vampirekind remains in question.

If she was human then why does she even factor into non-human moralities?

For the reason you said: because she's no longer human (assuming she ever was). The power she gained allowed her to act on impulses she couldn't have before, and she sees nothing wrong with any of the atrocities she committed.

Mel's character is of a selfish person who doesn't often enjoy doing the right thing but usually chooses to do it anyway,

No she doesn't. Mel was repeatedly forced/guilt-tripped into dong the right thing.

The wand had to guilt-trip her into helping Tiffany, it made her go back to stop the fight at the restaurant, it brought her to where Ash and Brooke were fighting, when she tried to ignore Mow, and Tandy had to smack Mel and tell her about how selfishly she was behaving to get her help save Artemis.

The only time Mel has ever chosen to do the right thing on her own, was when she decided to help Tiffany and Faith at the spa. And even that instance was with reluctance.

[RedMattis]

If you were hanging out with some friends and a sexy demon approached you and said "I'm hungry and need to eat your flesh and the marrow of your bones..", would you be fine with your friends just letting it eat you? Or the police/army ignoring the case if it ate all of you, because "it need to eat humans to survive"?

It may not be philosophically moral, but it is reasonable for the sexy demon to eat humans, if it needs to eat and kill specifically humans so to survive. Many of them would not see it as amoral to eat humans since a sense of morals is something you get largely from society around you.

On the other than it is not reasonable or morally justified for human society to ignore the sexy demons eating their eating their family either, and the expected retaliation would be to try exterminate the sexy demons to ensure the survival of their own members. We have no obligation to ensure the survival of our enemies, no matter how intelligent. Likely other sapient (non-sapient eating- and human-friendly) species would, if able, help the humans exterminate the sexy demons, since they would be seen as (perhaps tragic) monsters, even if the demons are not killing out of malice.

Basically it just means that both species are doomed to be in conflict. If the sexy demons and humans have similar personalities and empathy that doesn't make anyone more or less justified, that just makes it a bit of a crapsack world. Especially sad if you have someone like Dusky deciding to elope with a creature which may well later end up feasting on Dusky's friends or family if they happen to turn up on her beach a stormy night unexpectedly.

[Varanus]

Zombies? The vampires from 'Blade', who literally farmed humans like cattle - complete with private nightclubs and slaughterhouses, where their human victims were being lead to their deaths. Also movies like 'Critters' and 'Tremors'.

Zombies: Generally non sapient.
Blade Vampires: In the movies at least (not familiar with the comics), they kill as much out of malice as need. I don't recall it ever being said they had to kill humans.
Tremors: Not familiar with Critters but from what I know of Tremors the worms had no actual need to kill humans, humans were just the main large food available to them. And regardless, they aren't sapient either.

We've only seen that with the Delacroix Family. The rest of vampirekind remains in question.

The way they speak of their habits makes it clear it is the norm for vampires and we have nothing that indicates otherwise. Layla's father even talks about how different things are for vampires in modern times (vampires in general, not just his family) and how he worries over Quintessa being able (or willing) to adapt and we immediately switch to the very issue he was referring to, with the queen reminding herself that "we" (vampires in general) don't kill humans anymore.

For the reason you said: because she's no longer human (assuming she ever was). The power she gained allowed her to act on impulses she couldn't have before, and she sees nothing wrong with any of the atrocities she committed.

But those were human or at least human-like impulses and pretty in character with what she was before she gained such power. They have nothing to do with this theorized "need" to kill that you are advocating.

No she doesn't. Mel was repeatedly forced/guilt-tripped into dong the right thing.

The wand had to guilt-trip her into helping Tiffany, it made her go back to stop the fight at the restaurant, it brought her to where Ash and Brooke were fighting, when she tried to ignore Mow, and Tandy had to smack Mel and tell her about how selfishly she was behaving to get her help save Artemis.

The only time Mel has ever chosen to do the right thing on her own, was when she decided to help Tiffany and Faith at the spa. And even that instance was with reluctance.

And? That she can be guilted into these things at all is evidence of her true character. We even see when she is being really truthful (like under the massage that made her tell the truth) that the persona she shows people is not her real one (her real one being more concerned with caring about her friends and such than popularity). And none of those instances you mentioned involve her being "forced" to help anyone. Mel could have chosen not to help but didn't, and I say results matter a lot more than words.

[Gotoh]

And regardless, they aren't sapient either.

Sapience has nothing to do with it, that's the part you're not getting. The writer himself practically said as much when he made the comparison between how we as humans view chicken, and how cryptids see us: we're food. Period. Layla has referred to Tiffany as such. Twice.

Layla's father even talks about how different things are for vampires in modern times (vampires in general, not just his family) and how he worries over Quintessa being able (or willing) to adapt and we immediately switch to the very issue he was referring to, with the queen reminding herself that "we" (vampires in general) don't kill humans anymore.

As far as he knows, but I doubt every single vampire abides by that.

But those were human or at least human-like impulses and pretty in character with what she was before she gained such power. They have nothing to do with this theorized "need" to kill that you are advocating.

That wasn't what was being argued.

You said, most of the cryptids we've seen have a sense of morality that's closer to ours. So I provided examples showing most of the ones we've seen really don't. They're apathetic as far as human casualties are concerned.

The feeding argument was about Marine and whether it's necessary for her survival. That's two separate issues.

And? That she can be guilted into these things at all is evidence of her true character. We even see when she is being really truthful (like under the massage that made her tell the truth) that the persona she shows people is not her real one (her real one being more concerned with caring about her friends and such than popularity).

Which was after she had started to mature, which is why it came as a surprise to her. But as we saw, Mel was still petty and self-absorbed afterward, because we've been told by the editor that Mel fears being changed and prefers to be the wicked witch.

And none of those instances you mentioned involve her being "forced" to help anyone.

Did you look at any of those links? Straight from Mel's own mouth:

Mel: "Just because this stupid magick stick thinks I should follow your insane workouts, doesn't mean I care whether you live or die. I... stop that wand--! I don't... *sigh* Fine."

Or the fact that it literally whisked her away to where Ash and Brooke were fighting, when she tried to pretend she had never seen Mow before. Or how the wand made her transform to go back to stop and Ash and Dio from fighting, right as Mel said nothing could make her do it.

[Varanus]

Sapience has nothing to do with it, that's the part you're not getting. The writer himself practically said as much when he made the comparison between how we as humans view chicken, and how cryptids see us: we're food. Period. Layla has referred to Tiffany as such. Twice.

A comparison which loses its impact when vampires don't kill their food and Layla sees said "food" as her best friend.

Again, actions speak louder than words. Generally when the cryptids in EC interact with humans they do not treat them the way a human would treat a chicken.

As far as he knows, but I doubt every single vampire abides by that.

Never meant to imply they did, but there is a big difference between the above and what you said before (that only Delacroix are known to behave mercifully).

You said, most of the cryptids we've seen have a sense of morality that's closer to ours. So I provided examples showing most of the ones we've seen really don't. They're apathetic as far as human casualties are concerned.

And I'm not seeing how that is true, especially when many of the things you mentioned are things Melissa has said. Melissa, who is basically a regular selfish and very sarcastic human teenager but with a lot of power, not some alien being with blue and orange morality.

And as long as we are talking about Melissa, she not only doesn't want to personally kill humans, she doesn't want deaths on her conscience either. Being guilted into helping Tiff when the wand told her it would be her fault if she died is far from apathy toward human casualties.

Did you look at any of those links? Straight from Mel's own mouth:

Mel: "Just because this stupid magick stick thinks I should follow your insane workouts, doesn't mean I care whether you live or die. I... stop that wand--! I don't... *sigh* Fine."

Or the fact that it literally whisked her away to where Ash and Brooke were fighting, when she tried to pretend she had never seen Mow before. Or how the wand made her transform to go back to stop and Ash and Dio from fighting, right as Mel said nothing could make her do it.

Then you seem to have a rather different definition of "forced" than I do as Mel was not forced to do anything in those links. Forced to transform yes, but all her actions were of her own choosing.

[Gotoh]

A comparison which loses its impact when vampires don't kill their food and Layla sees said "food" as her best friend.

Despite one of the bonus strips in vol.4 showing she's regularly snacking on her?

And I'm not seeing how that is true, especially when many of the things you mentioned are things Melissa has said.

Melissa isn't the only one I mentioned. What about Ana and Hecate? One didn't care that thousands died in her name and betrayed her mentor by publicly beheading him. The other didn't care that one of her devotees was dying right in frot of her. That's apathy.

As for Mel, she didn't care that her friend tried to kill 7 of her classmates and enslaved an entire school. All she cared about were her own problems until Tandy set her straight. And in the end, Mel let Cerise off scot-free and made it so no one can come after Cerise for revenge. What do you call that?

Being guilted into helping Tiff when the wand told her it would be her fault if she died is far from apathy toward human casualties.

*redirect to previous section*

Then you seem to have a rather different definition of "forced" than I do as Mel was not forced to do anything in those links.

Or you purposely glossing over the part where the wand took over her body to drag her to where Ash and Brooke were fighting? She couldn't even finish saying goodbye to Ace, before it whisked her away.

It's repeatedly been shown that the wand can take over Mel's body whenever it wants; including in her sleep. A fact which she complained about more than once.

[Varanus]

What about Ana and Hecate? One didn't care that thousands died in her name and betrayed her mentor by publicly beheading him. The other didn't care that one of her devotees was dying right in frot of her. That's apathy.

I answered those in detail earlier.

As for Mel, she didn't care that her friend tried to kill 7 of her classmates and enslaved an entire school. All she cared about were her own problems until Tandy set her straight. And in the end, Mel let Cerise off scot-free and made it so no one can come after Cerise for revenge. What do you call that?

A disappointing ending that left a ton unexplained and contradicted a great deal that Melissa had said and done in the past.

That said it was also only possible because Cerise ended up not killing anyone and Mel saw the whole situation as partly her own fault.

Or you purposely glossing over the part where the wand took over her body to drag her to where Ash and Brooke were fighting? She couldn't even finish saying goodbye to Ace, before it whisked her away.

It's repeatedly been shown that the wand can take over Mel's body whenever it wants; including in her sleep. A fact which she complained about more than once.

And yet it did none of those things when it came to her actually doing good deeds, helping people, etc. Dragging her to a location is not forcing her to do something, just forcing her to be somewhere. And training her in her sleep is not forcing her to do good deeds either.

Or are you saying Mel only did good things because she believed the wand would force her to if she didn't choose to? That's possible, but its never said or indicated by anyone as far as I know.

[Error of Logic]

She's fine with killing whole groups of men (and she couldn't possibly eat them all before they rotted)

Some predators don't immediately eat their prey. Crocodiles store their kills somewhere and come back when rot has softened the meat and made it easier to tear and chew.

Besides that, a mass killing would improve Marine's chances of squirrelling away prey for consumption. Unlike many other creatures, humans try to recover their dead and would find an immediate disappearance of corpses suspicious. If there are numerous deaths, it is not unreasonable for humans to assume one corpse out of the lot was washed away by the current or nabbed by a shark or something.