Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

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Gotoh
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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by Gotoh »

@vampire hunter D: I've never said that, or even implied it, so I'm not sure where that came from. I've admitted to being wrong more than once, in the past.

What I'm saying is, If everyone's gonna argue "there's no teleportation magic in the real world" to try to downplay what Cerise tried to do, the same would have to apply to Anastasia and Dakota's case, since there's no such thing as gene-splicing via temporal rifts in the real world either.

Then when I point out the hypocrisy of the argument, I get called obtuse for it. They can't have it both ways.

If they're gonna gloss over the fact that there was magic involved in both instances, to only focus on the end result of this update - which we know went nowhere, since Dakota and Anastasia are both still alive - how is is it darker than what Cerise said she tried to do, when we don't know what's become of those six girls?

In my book, that's a fair question.

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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by Cranium »

Hugs Gotoh. I applaud your efforts, I really do.
As for Cerise, someone will need to create Mass Amnesia or some heads will roll. I for one hope for cheerful end after all the darkness (I know other jeer at my hopefulness and wanting for cheerful ending).

Well with this thread I listed one person as friend and one person as foe. Not sure how that impacts the forum (if anything at all).
after edit... I see that person as foe has post not seen, can live with that.
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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by Storm-forge mystique »

I hope we're well past "happy ending." Cerise is the magical equivalent of a school shooter, and I don't want to see her forgiven - maybe tolerated, but not excused. Hecate's corruption she welcomed, and her behavior since is only a more extreme version of her behavior before. Skye, maybe - there are a lot of ways her arc could go. But in any case, it seems clear to be that, if this isn't going to be reset, we're in a definite transitional period, with no real analogue in this weird little empire since the much more dynamic Fans!

I still think - and I'm sure I'm not alone here - Jacqui saved the girls. With Mel... who/whatever she is, and their lives owed to Jacqui, yet the audience having seen how evil Hecate - their species personified - can be, and a witch couple out there doing their thing, we've got a truly lovely setup.

Then again, I've seen this kind of arc end in a reset button too many times before...

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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by Cranium »

I have told my fair share of stories (being a Game Master/Dungeon Master one has to tell stories or it just monster bashing ... ugh ... no fun in the long run). The reset button is the last resort I have used as it not very satisfying to neither the players or storyteller. I for one will hope for the return of Jacqui and crew with Jacqui being the one that saves the other girls (and gain their respect), Melissa gaining respect and saving AA, and Cerise running for the hills (or dead or next queen of shadows, or what have you).
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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by TBeholder »

Jacqui must have had a lot of respect, given her start. Melissa - far more so, she became a potential rival to Faith and made it rather clear. So what? What is this supposed to change?
Gabrielle, for one, is equally happy to torture anyone including other students, the only difference is whether she is allowed to or not. It's that simple. Much the same with others. With obvious exceptions - e.g. Faith calls shots and doesn't get more than a slap on the wrist for anything, so she feels free to enslave other students - the only difference is that she doesn't get to break these toys after.
Last edited by TBeholder on Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by the_Bear »

Gotoh wrote:@vampire hunter D: I've never said that, or even implied it, so I'm not sure where that came from. I've admitted to being wrong more than once, in the past.

What I'm saying is, If everyone's gonna argue "there's no teleportation magic in the real world" to try to downplay what Cerise tried to do, the same would have to apply to Anastasia and Dakota's case, since there's no such thing as gene-splicing via temporal rifts in the real world either.

Then when I point out the hypocrisy of the argument, I get called obtuse for it. They can't have it both ways.

If they're gonna gloss over the fact that there was magic involved in both instances, to only focus on the end result of this update - which we know went nowhere, since Dakota and Anastasia are both still alive - how is is it darker than what Cerise said she tried to do, when we don't know what's become of those six girls?

In my book, that's a fair question.
You overlook the cartoonish aspect of her plan. There are different medias, and Loony Tunes style violence is very different from realistic depiction of violence. Cerise turns into cartoonish villain, teleports half the cast to the volcano, laughs madly - that's obvious signal to the reader that it's not real tragedy, because it will be consequence-less and without consequences bad act aren't that terrifying. Ana and Dakota becoming one person and going crazy is relatable in the way that many people can understand and just contemplating death is sign of suffering, so we can see Ana/Dakota suffering while we never see Faith and co suffering.

We are watching a story, not real life, which is why story conventions and mood matter. Anvil to the head is technicaly the same thing but turns out to be very different in comedy and in thriller.

EDIT: Also if we were to learn that they really fall and burned in the volcano, then the story would turn even darker. Not at the moment Cerise tossed them, because at that point it was standard villain moment that heroes are expected to overcome and make jokes of it later. Darkness comes at the moment we can see real,tragical consequences.

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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by Artemisia »

These strips have always flirted with the edge of darkness. . .enthrallment, Nina nearly killing someone while feeding, Queen Obscura's likely slaughtering of thousands before being thwarted, even Cerise's actions against the girls of Art. A. The thing Gotoh is missing is that there's Dark and then there's DARK...this is a very personal, private darkness that many people can understand a lot more than trying to kill people or committing mass murder. How many of us have ever been so hurt and felt so much pain that we've grabbed a gun and contemplated walking into a store or a school and opening fire? My bet is probably none of us.

On the other hand, we've all- whether we want to admit it or not- faced the personal kind of darkness that would easily lead to the lonely climb to a rope or taking a knife and opening arteries. Well, maybe not Chloe C., but just about every out there has hit that point at some time in their life.

Sorry for being blunt about this, but this is a personal darkness that is just horrifying to us all, and either Gotoh is missing it, or he's deliberately being a contrarian to rile up a discussion.
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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by Gotoh »

the_Bear wrote:You overlook the cartoonish aspect of her plan. There are different medias, and Loony Tunes style violence is very different from realistic depiction of violence Cerise turns into cartoonish villain, teleports half the cast to the volcano, laughs madly.
No, she didn't. She told them they wouldn't be coming back and activated the spell circle.
the_Bear wrote:that's obvious signal to the reader that it's not real tragedy, because it will be consequence-less and without consequences bad act aren't that terrifying.
Which is making a fairly big assumption about a situation we know little about. 'Magick Chicks' may be PG-13, but characters have been killed off in PG-13 works, like 'Robotech'.

Back when it originally aired in'84-85, Roy Fokker was such a central character, that many viewers actually believed he was the protagonist and thought Rick was his sidekick/surrogate little brother figure. If you had told anyone at that time that the writers would ever kill Roy, they would've said, "bullsh*t." Yet, that's exactly what happened.

'Avatar: The Last Airbender' was Y-7, but we saw Princess Yue, Zhao, and Jett die (in that order) on that show - to name a few. And that was a cartoon, but there was nothing cartoonish about how any of them died even though magic was involved in each of their deaths.
the_Bear wrote:Ana and Dakota becoming one person and going crazy is relatable in the way that many people can understand and just contemplating death is sign of suffering, so we can see Ana/Dakota suffering while we never see Faith and co suffering.
This is what I mean by trying to gloss things over to try to make their case seem darker.

How is becoming one person relateable, since that's physically and medically impossible, in our world? Moreso, since that was due to them having been pulled into a temporal rift and having their bodies and consciousness spliced together? Didn't you say that sort of thing was "cartoony"? :-\

On top of which, we know they didn't do it, 'cuz they're recounting what happened. We also know Dakota went on to become an archeologist, which we know she enjoys and Anastasia became a stay-at-home mom. So definitely no tragedy there either.

So where's the darkness in this, exactly...? :-??
the_Bear wrote:We are watching a story, not real life.
Double standard.

If you're gonna apply that to one, it has to apply to both. Yet, you and the others are treating Ana and Dakota's situation as though it were real, while trying to disregard what's become of Tiff, Jacqui, and the student council, 'cuz "we're watching a story, not real life". So which is it?
the_Bear wrote:Also if we were to learn that they really fall and burned in the volcano, then the story would turn even darker. Not at the moment Cerise tossed them, because at that point it was standard villain moment that heroes are expected to overcome and make jokes of it later. Darkness comes at the moment we can see real,tragical consequences.
  • 1. I've never seen anyone joke about almost being killed, or about someone trying to kill them - unless it's a comedy. While MC has comical moments, that wasn't one of them.
  • 2. The moment one character decides to take anotner character's life, it's already become dark - regardless whether the attempt is successful, or not.
To illustrate the second point - if Cerise had cornered Mel at the school, with a knife and stabbed her with the intent to kill her - when does it become dark? Would it be during the moments Mel's clutching at the wound, trying stop herself from bleeding out? The moment she's begging Cerise to let her go? Or does she actually have to die first?

You're basically saying the attempted murder of six students isn't dark, 'cuz they're not dead yet and you don't expect them to be. Yet two people contemplating suicide, which they didn't go through with is.

That's another double standard, 'cuz they're not dead either. You see why that argument doesn't work?

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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by Don Alexander »

Gotoh wrote:@vampire hunter D: I've never said that [my "word is absolute and infallible"], or even implied it, so I'm not sure where that came from. I've admitted to being wrong more than once, in the past.
Hm, let me try to explain how I see it, and likely a lot of other people following this argument. And note right from the offset that I am not trying to be snarky or mean here. I hope you will not be offended.

- Thread starts
- Several people make statement that this is not only very dark, but the darkest the comic has become so far
- You (and several others) make counter-statement
- More people (soon the clear majority of posters) make "most dark" statement
- Several forumites counter your counter-statement with their own explanations
- You start answering further "most dark" statements and counter-counter-statements, countering each explanation with more elaborate logic
- Pretty soon the thread becomes (yes, I indeed use they stylistic element of hyperbole here) "Gotoh, A, Gotoh, B, Gotoh, C, D, Gotoh, A, E, Gotoh..."

Furthermore, you do not accept the counter-explanations. As stated, you come up with more and more reasons why this comic and Cerise dumping 9 girls in a volcano is exactly equivalent in "dark counts". Additionally, as especially CFT has pointed out, you are using cold (and usually good, too) logic here where it can not be applied. And insisting on everyone analyzing the situation in cold, logical terms. And not just accepting that other people will feel differently about it.

@Artemisia: Can't say I've ever contemplated suicide in any serious manner. I've had some dark times (and actual reasons for those), but it seems my brain has a high serotonin level. I'm often rather grumpy, or neutral, but almost never truly down (and definitely not clinically depressed).
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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by Artemisia »

Well, Don, that's pretty much why I worded things the way I did. I won't get into specifics, though.

And yeah, I may have been a tad over dramatic in some ways.
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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by CFT »

Don Alexander wrote:...why this comic and Cerise dumping 9 girls in a volcano is exactly equivalent in "dark counts".
Damn you Don, I now feel compelled to advocate that all webcomics should be forced to display their "dark count points" on every page! :p
Think of it as being forced to display the calories for the food one sells. Too much darkness can lead to indigestion of course! B-)
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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by TBeholder »

[offtopic]
I don't know about Dark Side, er, "OMGdark count points" other than for flamebait (as demonstrated ;) ), but once had an idea that if my arthropodean self ran a webcomic, it would be cool to have some script parse a few (fixed number of) random lines from phobialist.com and stick the found words in "This comic may include content people suffering %s, %s, %s or %s could find disturbing." disclaimer. After all, you never exactly know what plot will pop into the artist's head tomorrow, and playing favourites is uncool. ;)
Don Alexander wrote:- Pretty soon the thread becomes (yes, I indeed use they stylistic element of hyperbole here) "Gotoh, A, Gotoh, B, Gotoh, C, D, Gotoh, A, E, Gotoh..."
Furthermore, you do not accept the counter-explanations.
Well, yeah. And since Gotoh both tend to ignore inconvenient arguments and never tires of spawning walls of the same theological blather, this cannot end until the other side either gets bored or realizes that the opponent isn't truly interactive, so the "discussion" is pointless. Unfortunately, there's almost always enough of obsessive people incapable to move on, so the threads run in circles until everything more meaningful is drowned - and ignoring him reduces it only by 2/3 or so. This produces interesting observations, but they very quickly get redundant.
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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by Cloud Chaser »

I want a new spin-off of what Supermom went through.

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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by Wispeln »

Schmorgluck wrote:So, no, the noose is no darker than, say, Faith coming to the full realization that what she thought was her popularity was a trick of the mind just to take a random example,
Was that panel not supposed to be deeply satisfying? That information made me rather happy. Might be a bit of schadenfreude though. It wasn't a *funny* panel, but it wasn't dark either.

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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by TBeholder »

Yup. Seeing a cheater being plainly told "now you really lost the game" is always satisfying.
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