Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by Storm-forge mystique »

I can't be too moved by something that almost certainly isn't part of the story. Even if it were - even if soon we see a splash page of their charred skeletons - that will be pretty damn dark for the strip, but I'd still say not as dark as this. Why? Two reasons.

1. Proximity. You dismiss this again and again, but you must know that right now, people are dying all over the world, and I'll bet you don't care. You might say you do, but think about how many people I'm talking about - do you treat their deaths with the same gravity? You'd be insane. So yes, watching them actually burn to death from afar wouldn't match watching these two almost kill themselves up close and personal.
2. The nature of the deaths. The girls, if they die, die terrified, betrayed, despairing - so do these two. But for them, the betrayal runs so much deeper. And what's more, if the girls were saved, the nature of that terror is tempered by a kind of immediate relief that isn't coming for these two no matter what happens.

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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by Gotoh »

@Storm-forge mystique: I'd still disagree, so I'll leave it at that.

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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by vampire hunter D »

Cass needs to hurry up with teh next strips so we can get off this.....
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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by The Nick »

I think the difference is people are having two different arguments here (ignoring the stuff that is borderline-harassment or picking on other forum posters. That is most definitely not cool).

While one incident is factually and mathematically "more bad" than the other incident, the way it is presented is different. The murder of multiple people might have a 9x modifier on it, but it was essentially played lightly and put in your face in such a way that we can be 99% sure nobody is actually going to be removed from the cast page.

In contrast, the way most people respond to the 'suicide' thing and the reason people go, "Ohhh man, that's so dark" is because of how it is presented.

Imagine a somewhat different comic, where instead of a flashback, Ana-kota instead just meander around a field and then have a crazy monologue with themself(selves?) while a girl at a register watches in confusion.

"Well, dag 'nam it, this just won't do. Let's commit suicide. Yes let's. Ok, we agree? Yeah, we do. Good. I'll get the vegetable oil... what!? Yeah, you know, oil? No, just crash your car. I don't have a car. Oh. Uh, how about hanging? I hear that's popular with the kids these days. It's not. It isn't? No. Well, I got some rope. I got the chair. Let's do it!"

The primary difference isn't the original, actual comic has suicide in it. That's not necessarily dark. You can approach is seriously or ridiculously.

The reason why it resonates is because it never says at any point anybody is committing suicide or even contemplating it. Consider that last panel and instead of a crazy dialogue, imagine if it was just Ana-kota eating a burger and saying, "So it's agreed? We commit suicide." That would have just been plot exposition at that point.

No. The trick is that nothing is said or even implied with dialogue. Rather, it's the combined juxtaposition of plot, text, layout, the comic equivalent of cinematography, and suggestive images that produces the thought unbidden in your head. A thought coming seemingly originally and unbidden is perceived and experienced more powerfully than being told how to feel.

"Show, don't tell."

Consider the volcano murder scene.

It's almost a laugh. Villains throw people into volcanoes without repercussions all the time. But the way the story is expressed is essentially through dialogue and revelation. That's boring.
  • Cerise: "Enjoy burning in a volcano!" *pooph*

    Consider the alternative:
    • Cerise casts a magic spell.
    • A dark panel.

      Then any of these conclusions.
    • A graveyard with the names of a few of the girls on it, perhaps with a family member in mourning or a hunter in the background surreptitiously leaving a memento on a long-forgotten grave
    • Cops knocking on a door, comforting grieving parents.
    • Only these words: "..and they were never seen again."
Done that way, you remove any uncertainty in the minds' eye of the readers and essentially 'trick' them into deducing in their own head the facts themselves. 'Self-inflicted facts' will always be believed more strongly and resonate more earnestly than facts that you tell. I do this all the time when I speak to people; I use a fact or suggestive language to plant an idea in a person's head and let them come to the conclusion on their own. As a result, the feeling that I wish for them to experience is experienced stronger than if I just told them how to feel.

In contrast, a person who is well aware of the sneakiness going on 'behind the scenes' generally doesn't fall for these sorts of emotional ploys and can instead view a scene with detachment and make the rationally correct choice. Most people would choose to act emotionally or save poor Ana-kota because of the way they respond to the art of storytelling, but rationally speaking, when you can pull yourself away from your instinctual emotions, the math is easy; more lives lost are worse.

I believe what most people are missing in this discussion is the method of storytelling imparting a certain feeling that generates a greater emotional impact (i.e. it's why Renaissance painters will probably inflict greater feelings on you than me saying, "Boy, flowers sure are pretty!")
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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by Gotoh »

I can go along with a good bit of what you're saying, but there's a couple of parts I gotta disagree with:
The Nick wrote:INo. The trick is that nothing is said or even implied with dialogue. Rather, it's the combined juxtaposition of plot, text, layout, the comic equivalent of cinematography, and suggestive images that produces the thought unbidden in your head. A thought coming seemingly originally and unbidden is perceived and experienced more powerfully than being told how to feel.

"Show, don't tell."
Except we're still being told via narrative text. Everything between panels 2-3 builds up the final scene in the 4th panel. We know they were conflicted, we know they thought about possibly being killed by Dakota's friends, or simply allowing it to happen, 'til they found a solution (suicide) both of them could agree on.

All of that is telling us what their thoughts were and what they'd gone through emotionally, 'til they both looked at that noose and thought to themselves: 'let's do it'.

The 'show don't tell' approach would be more like a montage of images depicting the mental/emotional stress of trying to cope being stuck with each other as single entity, then becoming increasingly despondent, 'til they finally happen across that noose and step up on the chair.

But that isn't what we saw. More importantly, we know they didn't go through with it, which immediately lessens the impact. Whereas if that scene was taking place in the present, rather than in retrospect, I might have agreed with the rest of you then.
The Nick wrote:Consider the volcano murder scene. It's almost a laugh. Villains throw people into volcanoes without repercussions all the time. But the way the story is expressed is essentially through dialogue and revelation. That's boring.
  • Cerise: "Enjoy burning in a volcano!" *pooph*
But that isn't what she said, which was: "You're not coming back. So yeah... Bye."

That was ominous to begin with because, at that time, we had no idea what Cerise meant by that, 'cuz it could've meant anything. The discussion of those two strips had us speculating on where she was sending them, 'til Giiz and Dave dropped this one on us - which changed things from a magical kidnapping to a mass murder attempt.

I don't see anything laughable about that, regardless how it was done. I'm pretty sure if I flew my next-door neighbor out to a volcano and tossed him in, that the judge and jury aren't gonna find that funny because of how I did it. Instead, they'd charge me with premeditated murder.
The Nick wrote:Consider the alternative:
  • Cerise casts a magic spell.
  • A dark panel.

    Then any of these conclusions.
  • A graveyard with the names of a few of the girls on it, perhaps with a family member in mourning or a hunter in the background surreptitiously leaving a memento on a long-forgotten grave
  • Cops knocking on a door, comforting grieving parents.
  • Only these words: "..and they were never seen again."
[/list]

Done that way, you remove any uncertainty in the minds' eye of the readers and essentially 'trick' them into deducing in their own head the facts themselves. 'Self-inflicted facts' will always be believed more strongly and resonate more earnestly than facts that you tell.
Again, this is a good point, but I get to use to the same argument: had they shown a silhouette of Ana-kota's feet dangling from the ceiling with a close-up of that chair on it's side, it would have had the same effect you're describing here. Or if the story was being recounted by a third party, who knew them - implying they had actually done it.

On the other hand, we still have six missing students, who's status and whereabouts remain unknown. We assume they'll be fine because three of them are main characters, but main characters get killed off too. I've seen it happen more than a few times, even in PG-13 stories. It's one of the easiest ways for the writers to effectively sucker-punch the audience, 'cuz no one ever expects main characters to die.

That's what made Nancy's death so effective in 'Nightmare on Elmstreet 3'. She wasn't just a main character, she was the protagonist who had survived the first two movies. Nobody saw that one coming.

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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by David Johnston »

Gotoh wrote:
Murder is murder, death is death no matter how prettily, or elaborately, you try to dress it up. But, since we're playing the "it's in the presentation" card:

We know Anastasia and Dakota didn't kill themselves, 'cuz they're still alive and telling Melissa and her friends about what they went through. That alone aliviates any suspense in that last scene.

Tiff, Jacqui, and the student council, on the other hand, haven't been seen, or heard from since the teleportation incident, and are believed to be dead in-series. Their whereabouts and what's become of them remains in question, even though the readership assumes they're all alive.

You tell me, which one of those seems darker in context?
Still the suicide attempt. Suspenseful isn't the same thing as dark. It is suspenseful that there's a remote chance that Cerise managed to kill those girls but it would only be dark if it was actually revealed that she succeeded which seems quite unlikely given what Cerise is. The darkness here doesn't come from the possibility that the ladies managed to hang themself. We know they didn't. The darkness comes from the suffering that drove them to that point, suffering that definitely happened.

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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by mikbuster »

There's also the prospect that they did hang themselves, and that's the moment they separated.
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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by David Johnston »

<shrug> Honestly that's not any darker. If they hang themself and live, correcting their problem that's not so bad. The darkness is still the suffering that drives them to the attempt.

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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by Gotoh »

David Johnston wrote:Still the suicide attempt. (1)Suspenseful isn't the same thing as dark. It is suspenseful that there's a remote chance that Cerise managed to kill those girls but (2)it would only be dark if it was actually revealed that she succeeded which seems quite unlikely given what Cerise is. The darkness here doesn't come from the possibility that the ladies managed to hang themself. We know they didn't. The darkness comes from the suffering that drove them to that point, suffering that definitely happened.
I agree on the first part, since that's a fair point - suspense isn't necessarily the same as being dark, though they can overlap. But I'd disagree on the second part, 'cuz that's saying attempted murder isn't dark, unless the victim actually dies.

Granted, that hinges entirely on whether Cerise meant what she said, or if she was making that up to try to convince Hecate that Melissa was permanently out of the picture. If it turns out she was bullsh*tting (again), then I'd agree that it isn't dark. But, if she was telling the truth, tht's different - 'cuz regardless whether she succeeds, or not, the bottom line is: she tried to burn 9 girls to death for the sake of popularity.

Anybody who's willing to commit murder over something that trivial is deeply disturbed. That's every bit as dark as someone contemplating suicide.

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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by The Nick »

What I'm suggesting is 'yah, you're dead now, b'bye' lacks any real sense of finality. While there is the remotest of chances that they're all actually dead...

..they're not. I'd peg the odds at 99 to 1 in my favor.

That's why it lacks 'darkness'. It could be dark under the right circumstances. A murder most foul is pretty nasty, true, but here it's essentially being played for laughs or light exposition. In contrast, the suicide scene is intentionally trying to pull on the heart strings.

I'd say the difference is the focus. One is more about exposition and the other is intended to trying to inflict emotions on you.


I'd say it's the difference between a 15 dudes being stabbed in the face and ME being stabbed in the face. 15 people are stabbed and die every day, but I'll have a stronger emotional reaction to being personally stabbed in the face because it's (unfairly) inflicting emotions on me in a way that wouldn't be inflicted by a nebulous, 'unreal', but entirely truthful fact that is far away and not affecting me.
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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by the_Bear »

Gotoh wrote:
David Johnston wrote:Still the suicide attempt. (1)Suspenseful isn't the same thing as dark. It is suspenseful that there's a remote chance that Cerise managed to kill those girls but (2)it would only be dark if it was actually revealed that she succeeded which seems quite unlikely given what Cerise is. The darkness here doesn't come from the possibility that the ladies managed to hang themself. We know they didn't. The darkness comes from the suffering that drove them to that point, suffering that definitely happened.
I agree on the first part, since that's a fair point - suspense isn't necessarily the same as being dark, though they can overlap. But I'd disagree on the second part, 'cuz that's saying attempted murder isn't dark, unless the victim actually dies.
It may not be, depending on the story and genre. I am somewhat exagerating with comparisions to Looney Toons, but certainly Elmer Fudd trying constantly to kill Bugs Bunny is not dark despite being attempted murder. If you can accept that, then you can understand that in different stories similar act can be dark or not (or slughtly dark) depending on genre conventions and storytelling.
Gotoh wrote:
the_Bear wrote:You overlook the cartoonish aspect of her plan. There are different medias, and Loony Tunes style violence is very different from realistic depiction of violence Cerise turns into cartoonish villain, teleports half the cast to the volcano, laughs madly.
No, she didn't. She told them they wouldn't be coming back and activated the spell circle.
the_Bear wrote:that's obvious signal to the reader that it's not real tragedy, because it will be consequence-less and without consequences bad act aren't that terrifying.
Which is making a fairly big assumption about a situation we know little about. 'Magick Chicks' may be PG-13, but characters have been killed off in PG-13 works, like 'Robotech'.

Back when it originally aired in'84-85, Roy Fokker was such a central character, that many viewers actually believed he was the protagonist and thought Rick was his sidekick/surrogate little brother figure. If you had told anyone at that time that the writers would ever kill Roy, they would've said, "bullsh*t." Yet, that's exactly what happened.

'Avatar: The Last Airbender' was Y-7, but we saw Princess Yue, Zhao, and Jett die (in that order) on that show - to name a few. And that was a cartoon, but there was nothing cartoonish about how any of them died even though magic was involved in each of their deaths.
It's not just PG-13, it's also the fact that it is way too many cast members, some still critical to the story like Tiffany. If it was just Faith sacrificing herself I could believe in her death, but the rest of them being killed along her would be a waste of well developed characters with plots to finish for no additional emotional impact. It would be simply shitty storytelling. In Avatar Yue's and Jett's death was meaningful and was used fully to add tragedy and nobleness to their characters while also developing other cast members. And even George RR Martin doesn't kill too many named characters at once.
Gotoh wrote:
the_Bear wrote:Ana and Dakota becoming one person and going crazy is relatable in the way that many people can understand and just contemplating death is sign of suffering, so we can see Ana/Dakota suffering while we never see Faith and co suffering.
This is what I mean by trying to gloss things over to try to make their case seem darker.

How is becoming one person relateable, since that's physically and medically impossible, in our world? Moreso, since that was due to them having been pulled into a temporal rift and having their bodies and consciousness spliced together? Didn't you say that sort of thing was "cartoony"? :-\

On top of which, we know they didn't do it, 'cuz they're recounting what happened. We also know Dakota went on to become an archeologist, which we know she enjoys and Anastasia became a stay-at-home mom. So definitely no tragedy there either.

So where's the darkness in this, exactly...? :-??
Psychical illness is never, or at least very rarely "cartoony". It's simply too scary for people. Violence is simple - even if someone didn't fight for toys in the playground as kid, then everyone can understand stubbed toe for example. Not being fully in control of yourself is many people's worst nightmare. I would say that examples of mind control shown so far in the story are already quite disturbing, even though they seem to be played for laughs, IIRC there was already part where authors had to remove a scene with Nina that readers found disturbing and wrong.

Also while we know Ana and Dakota will be alright in the end, they are clearly suffering in the shown scene if they contemplate suicide.
Gotoh wrote:
the_Bear wrote:We are watching a story, not real life.
Double standard.

If you're gonna apply that to one, it has to apply to both. Yet, you and the others are treating Ana and Dakota's situation as though it were real, while trying to disregard what's become of Tiff, Jacqui, and the student council, 'cuz "we're watching a story, not real life". So which is it?
Two stories. It's just that "two characters forced to live in one mind" is different, darker story then "monster-hunters and witch thrown into dangerous situation, will they be able to see past they differences to work together?" which is what I roughly expect from their story.
Gotoh wrote:
the_Bear wrote:Also if we were to learn that they really fall and burned in the volcano, then the story would turn even darker. Not at the moment Cerise tossed them, because at that point it was standard villain moment that heroes are expected to overcome and make jokes of it later. Darkness comes at the moment we can see real,tragical consequences.
  • 1. I've never seen anyone joke about almost being killed, or about someone trying to kill them - unless it's a comedy. While MC has comical moments, that wasn't one of them.
  • 2. The moment one character decides to take anotner character's life, it's already become dark - regardless whether the attempt is successful, or not.
To illustrate the second point - if Cerise had cornered Mel at the school, with a knife and stabbed her with the intent to kill her - when does it become dark? Would it be during the moments Mel's clutching at the wound, trying stop herself from bleeding out? The moment she's begging Cerise to let her go? Or does she actually have to die first?

You're basically saying the attempted murder of six students isn't dark, 'cuz they're not dead yet and you don't expect them to be. Yet two people contemplating suicide, which they didn't go through with is.

That's another double standard, 'cuz they're not dead either. You see why that argument doesn't work?
If we can see Mel's clutching at her wound, then we are being shown the consequences of stabbing, which makes it darker than if she would just punch Cerise and slapped a band-aid on the wound like Last Action Hero. By the way the last scenes of Last Action Hero also show why the genre of the story can drastically change the implication of a situation - Slater being wounded is tragical in the "real world", but not in the "movie world". When you can see characters being scared, being in pain and suffering, having died, those thing make story darker. So far we have only seen Faith, Tiff and co scared , so that was PG-13 darkness, just enough for their goodbyes to the remaining trio being impactfuly emotional for reader.

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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by David Johnston »

Gotoh wrote: I agree on the first part, since that's a fair point - suspense isn't necessarily the same as being dark, though they can overlap. But I'd disagree on the second part, 'cuz that's saying attempted murder isn't dark, unless the victim actually dies.
Please. It was a slow deathtrap set by a bungler too squeamish to want to see what she was doing and make sure of the outcome. Darker than the Batman TV series cliffhangers...sure. I'm not saying it wasn't dark. But the disintegration of two strong minds into insanity driving them toward suicide is good deal darker than that in my book.

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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

Post by Crystafent82 »

Well, i am not impartial on that matter.
I work for a social services institution in my country that deals with quite a lot, retirement homes, meals on wheels and other services at home, homeless, debt consultation, handicapped people, refugees and once every few months even with a person contemplating suicide. Sadly i am no stranger to talking with someone for 10-15 minutes while your superior tries to reach the police/ambulance and direct them to your caller.
Or talking with old people who no longer want to live since they can no longer move without someone helping them that they seriously consider hanging themselves.
So while i clenched my teeth and said 'Damn!' when i saw the last panel, it does not impact me as heavy as it would have done years ago.

The 'I teleported them into an active volcano' in that situation was just too over-the-top-comic-supervillain-like to be taken serious for me. Especially when their was no sign of it happening. A simple poof without furhter ado leaves too many openings.
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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

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*om nom nom* (where is popcorn emoticon when you need it ?)
No more reading the thread, just looking how long it can get. As entertaining as anything else. :D
*om nom nom*

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Re: Magick Chicks 14-03-14 Your own worst enemy

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