Dangerously Chloe 13-03-14 Unlock the front door

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TJgalon
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-03-14 Unlock the front door

Post by TJgalon »

vampire hunter D wrote:
Clara Oswald wrote: There's three or you and none of you thought to try the door?
I loved that one, the plan was to vibrate the door. "It should have been locked"
"Somebody just stake me now"

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The Nick
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-03-14 Unlock the front door

Post by The Nick »

Geeno wrote: That explains why urban people think Stand Your Ground laws are so freaking bizarre. If you're willing to let people get close enough to do damage before you try to stop them, extraordinary measures may be required when you DO finally make that decision.

I'm pretty sure peoples problem with Stand Your Ground is the fact that it's mainly been used by old white men to get away with killing young black men.
The real problem people have with those laws is ignorance of them and a lack of understanding of the law (combined with a fear of guns and self responsibility, which makes people paranoid).
"Sometimes [Layla] is a bit discourteous."-David Johnston
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"Somebody just stake me now" -TJgalon
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Geeno
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-03-14 Unlock the front door

Post by Geeno »

I don't think it's "self-responsibility" as much as it is having to trust that other person to be semi-intelligent and reasonable. You'd be surprised how many of them aren't.
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TBeholder
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-03-14 Unlock the front door

Post by TBeholder »

The Nick wrote:The real problem people have with those laws is ignorance of them and a lack of understanding of the law (combined with a fear of guns and self responsibility, which makes people paranoid).
Fear of self responsibility, while known to be a factor, does not make anyone paranoid. Merely pathetic and easy to manipulate.
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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The Nick
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-03-14 Unlock the front door

Post by The Nick »

What I'm implying is that the sort of person who views objects as inherently dangerous also tend towards being the sort of people who view their own safety and well-being not as being subjects they have any interest (vested or responsibility wise) in, but as being responsibilities of the state.
"Sometimes [Layla] is a bit discourteous."-David Johnston
"The usual incentive for peace is to not be at war."-Thor
"that's actually one of thor's lines you've got in your signature there, not one of mine." -J (usually more invisible)
"Somebody just stake me now" -TJgalon
"I can masturbate without guilt now." -Panchocheesecake
"More Nick-sarcasm is always appreciated. Hail Beret Cat!" -Don Alexander
"...get that girl's panties off of her as soon as possible, and then see what effect that has on her personality." -kitsune9tails (out of context)
"special flowers" -Thor
"Doggy style." -Milnoc
"Wanted: ...berets on cats..." -The Nick

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Geeno
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-03-14 Unlock the front door

Post by Geeno »

None of which is germane to SYG laws. All they do is lower the bar for a self defense claim. I believe they lower that bar too far.
How can I know if my mere presence causes someone else "fear"? Am I scary just because I'm black and in a hoody? When the standard is someone else's completely subjective judgment, how can one be responsible for one's own safety? People can't read minds.
What was wrong with the previous 200+ years of self-defense law?

Anyone who didn't foresee SYG laws being used to essentially legalize gang warfare (it has been used successfully multiple times - after all a gang banger is in fear for his life if he sees a rival gang banger) or declare open season on minorities in more racist jurisdictions simply has an incredibly limited understanding of human nature.
Perhaps we urban dwellers are little to used to seeing the "angles", but Stand-Your-Ground really devolves to Leave-No-Witnesses - that way no one can contest your scary, scary story.

BTW - I've walked through the shittiest of neighborhoods in my city in the wee hours of the morning* with nothing more than my fists to defend me. I haven't had a problem in 50+ years of living here.

* Back when I worked 3rd shift we got paid for the whole 8 hours even if we finished early. I often walked home at 3 or 4 AM.

Quote removed. The DAMNed
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The Nick
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 13-03-14 Unlock the front door

Post by The Nick »

Geeno wrote:None of which is germane to SYG laws. All they do is lower the bar for a self defense claim. I believe they lower that bar too far.
How can I know if my mere presence causes someone else "fear"? Am I scary just because I'm black and in a hoody? When the standard is someone else's completely subjective judgment, how can one be responsible for one's own safety? People can't read minds.
What was wrong with the previous 200+ years of self-defense law?

Anyone who didn't foresee SYG laws being used to essentially legalize gang warfare (it has been used successfully multiple times - after all a gang banger is in fear for his life if he sees a rival gang banger) or declare open season on minorities in more racist jurisdictions simply has an incredibly limited understanding of human nature.
Perhaps we urban dwellers are little to used to seeing the "angles", but Stand-Your-Ground really devolves to Leave-No-Witnesses - that way no one can contest your scary, scary story.

BTW - I've walked through the shittiest of neighborhoods in my city in the wee hours of the morning* with nothing more than my fists to defend me. I haven't had a problem in 50+ years of living here.

* Back when I worked 3rd shift we got paid for the whole 8 hours even if we finished early. I often walked home at 3 or 4 AM.

Quote removed. The DAMNed
Stand Your Ground doesn't actually have ANYTHING to do with standard self-defense laws.

It just removes the necessity for fleeing a scene first and being forced to use self-defense. To note: this is the standard example if I'm in my house or my car or my job. I don't have to flee further since the presumption is somebody attacking you in your house is always in the wrong and 'a man's house is his castle'.

Furthermore, the standard is not 'was I fearing for my life', but actually 'would a reasonable man, with the knowledge he had at the time, be reasonably expected to fear for his life'?

It turns out the big tragedy in the Zimmerman trial is that there is NO criminal here; just because somebody 'could have done something different' doesn't mean they're criminally responsible. Technically, either one of them could have committed suicide the day before and prevented anything bad from happening, but that's an unreasonable standard to hold people to. No, the REAL tragedy here is that there WAS no criminal. Neither of them went out to beat up minorities (they were both minorities) or to murder people.

The real tragedy is that, sometimes, 'bad' things happen in real life and nobody is responsible for them. This scares people because it suggests that you might be minding your own business and a car hits you or a meteorite hits you or a blood clot hits you and you either have to believe that "You were a bad person who deserved it" or "Somebody did something bad and you were a victim" but all of these explanations fail to remember that sometimes, in life, bad stuff happens.


Either way, you can't JUST claim that you thought your life was in danger (unless you're a cop, in which case you get a free vacation).

If I murder your puppy, or your four year old, or your sleeping grandmother, I can't claim self-defense. You NEVER claim 'Stand Your Ground' because that's not a defense; that's a modification of a self-defense plea wherein you say that in addition to having the right to utilize potentially fatal self-defense because you were legitimately in fear of your life in such a way that a reasonable man would also be in fear of their life and you had actual evidence that the person was capable of, willing to, and about to commit a hostile act, then the SYG plea just means that you don't have to demonstrate that you explored any and all potential options of escape before utilizing that self defense.

That is, without SYG, if somebody comes up, shoots my mother in the face and I respond by shouting and screaming and shooting and the murderer dies, the police can legitimately try to charge me because I didn't take a single step back.

SYG is not 'murder black dudes because it's fun and we're all racists', SYG just removes the onus from LAW ABIDING CITIZENS who shoot criminals, who then get to go to hospitals and prisons and get free care while I have to prove I'm not a racist because the prosecutor found "evidence" that I shot him 9 times after he murdered my family before he fell down, and that might be indicative of 'racist tendencies'.

"Did you turn around and run away, even though they were shooting bullets at you and standing in front of the only door to leave the restaurant?"

If you say no, without SYG laws, you might be liable for murder just as much as the psycho who came in to murder a field trip of children.

That's ALL SYG does.


You can't 'stand your ground' if you aren't ALSO in a situation where self-defense is legal. If I come across a nun and the pope, I can't claim I was "Standing My Ground" on the street if the nun and the pope were just... standing there praying while drinking coffee. Because there's not a self-defense claim, there can't be SYG.
"Sometimes [Layla] is a bit discourteous."-David Johnston
"The usual incentive for peace is to not be at war."-Thor
"that's actually one of thor's lines you've got in your signature there, not one of mine." -J (usually more invisible)
"Somebody just stake me now" -TJgalon
"I can masturbate without guilt now." -Panchocheesecake
"More Nick-sarcasm is always appreciated. Hail Beret Cat!" -Don Alexander
"...get that girl's panties off of her as soon as possible, and then see what effect that has on her personality." -kitsune9tails (out of context)
"special flowers" -Thor
"Doggy style." -Milnoc
"Wanted: ...berets on cats..." -The Nick

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