Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Gotoh »

dex drako wrote:The reason I believe Cerise is telling the truth is because her lying adds nothing to her plans nor, more importantly, the plot as a whole.
Which hasn't stopped her from lying several times in the past, which has been used for plot purposes before.
dex drako wrote:Cerise gave us this information through a villainess monologue where Cerise explaining she's going to knowingly use the same plot device to gain power. Addressed to people she was planning to get rid of with whatever this magic circle does so she has no reason to lie to them and more importantly the author has no reason to lie to us. The same is true for Tiff's observation, at that point she wasn't just some real person with a wild theory she was a mouth piece of the author foreshadowing what's to come.
Monologuing is hardly proof that she's telling the truth.

Ever read Bleach? 'cuz Souske Aizen loves to monologuek, and you know what he ends up saying more than half the time, 'x' number of chapters later? "I lied." Even when he doesn't say the words, 3 out of 5 times, he's lying through his teeth. At the end of chapter 177 the guy gave a 'how Idid it' speech, where he told Ichigo all about his evil plans, and how he put it together (just like Cerise). Come chapter 393, you know what he said about that monologue he gave back at the end of 177? "I lied."

Cerise track record may not be as extensive as Aizen's, but it's long been established that she lies like a rug; especially if she stands to gain from it. Look at what she did to Dusky, after she promised Tiffany she'd look after him for her. The moment Tiff's back was turned, Cerise fried Dusky and sold him up the river. Then lied about how she captured him. The same way she lied to Callista by pretending to take an interest in her, when she was just using Callista's popularity to elevate her own standing at the school. Then manipulated her by using Skye to make her jealous.

But, hey, let's ignore all that, 'cuz ain't no way she could possibly be lying now. This is about Faith, so she's gotta be telling the truth... this time.
dex drako wrote:At this point it turning out to be a lie would raise real problems for the plot (like cerise being no threat) and the only advantage it would have is to make faith look better.
How would lying again, not make her a threat? :-\
dex drako wrote:Also your main point to criticism seems to come from this belief that no one can know faith better then herself in anyway. I mean it's not like Tiff and Cerise are saying they know everything about faith just that they can see one thing Faith couldn't. But even the thought that they could see something Faith herself knew on some level even if she couldn't admit it to herself repulses you.
Two things here:

1. I said it'd mean they somehow had a better understanding of her powers than Faith did. I wasn't talking about them knowing Faith, herself, better than she did.

2. The idea doesn't repulse me. I just find it difficult to believe.
dex drako wrote:
Gotoh wrote:There's no way to really answer that either, since 'fade-out' girl intervened before Melissa could answer the question.
Well let’s look at setup for the scene to try and make it a little more clear.

This was an attack on Mel by faith in a combat test, the rules of which where the fight stopped with a knockout. it's just simple logic that an attack would be useless if it didn't give the attacker an advantage over the attacked and this is clearly shown by Faith own statements and control she had. In fact faith told us the scales were tilted so far in her favor that random little girls with cats shouldn’t have been enough to break Mel out of her daze. We can also rule out any shared "dream" because the whole event had to happen in the time it took them to drop to the ground otherwise the fight would have ended in a double knockout.
Except you forgot the part where Faith told Mel that time flows differently in dreams, by pointing out how her body hadn't even hit the ground yet. Then said they had all the time in the world.
dex drako wrote:From the set up or Faith own words I don’t understand how anyone could believe to Mel had any control over what was happening. On top of this that at this point Mel had only known Faith for a few hours at most ( it was their first time in this class) in which Faith had publicly humiliated, assaulted and sexually harassed her leaves me unable to believe Mel could have any feelings of interest in Faith at all.
And if you back over my post, you'll see that I already said that. I said her contempt towards Faith likely stems from envy but, at the same time, there is something about Faith that appeals to her. Even if it's just Faith's status.

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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by TBeholder »

dex drako wrote:The reason I believe Cerise is telling the truth is because her lying adds nothing to her plans nor, more importantly, the plot as a whole.
In other words: you presume to know her plans and the plot as a whole, and this hypothesis doesn't fit your concept of either.
dex drako wrote: Cerise gave us this information through a villainess monologue where Cerise explaining she's going to knowingly use the same plot device to gain power. [...] and more importantly the author has no reason to lie to us.
...more specifically, you expect it to be a straightforward Disney/DC/Hasbro cud "chewed by trained proffesionals for our differently sentient viewers", only with more pantyshots. 8-|
dex drako wrote: The same is true for Tiff's observation, at that point she wasn't just some real person with a wild theory she was a mouth piece of the author foreshadowing what's to come.
When she expressed her intent to stake Layla and predicted that any possible witches will be exterminated?
dex drako wrote: From the set up or Faith own words I don’t understand how anyone could believe to Mel had any control over what was happening.
She was so happy about it, she was inspired to let Tiffany regularly run her through parkour-from-hell course that changed her figure in the way she didn't like! :D
dex drako wrote:On top of this that at this point Mel had only known Faith for a few hours at most ( it was their first time in this class) in which Faith had publicly humiliated, assaulted and sexually harassed her leaves me unable to believe Mel could have any feelings of interest in Faith at all.
I guess, at the point where knocking upside the head and groping was compared to valentines from a shy young princess, everything goes. =))
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Crystafent82 »

Considering that we are slinging the same arguments back and forth since 2 weeks and no one seems to change the others opinion, how about we let things cool down and wait for the next pages?
We can debate Cerise credibility for 10 more pages, but the result about her lying or telling the truth will come out by itself in the next pages.
And unlike Bleach the writing of the Pixie Tricks Comics has been far more consistend.
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by The Nick »

TBeholder wrote:If "12 year-old giving a Valentine's Day heart" being used as an analogy for trapping and locking someone away, stunning, stripping naked and groping is still not enough to make you drop the arguing about this as hopeless, nothing will. =))
Is this trolling or just vaguely inappropriate pedophilia humor? It definitely makes me uncomfortable.

Either way, I'll choose to respond to this in a serious way:

The comparison I was making was not (as you seem to imply or accuse me of) approving of taking advantage of 12 year-olds.

Let me repeat that again, TBeholder: my statement does not imply approval for taking advantage of 12 year-olds.


Rather, in case it isn't crystal-clear, I was instead arguing about the dubious usage of the term 'sexual'. Specifically, it was being used to imply that anything with a hint of sexual overtones automatically implies 100% full-on non-consensual penetration; my counter-argument is that even relatively innocent actions or claims have a shade of sexuality (say, young children proclaiming they want to marry their Valentine and have babies when they're all grown up) but suggesting that a youth's understanding of relationships and how their parents make storks bring babies is synonymous with rape is a controversial and non-productive claim and only serves to muddy the argument due to the usage and introduction of imprecise terms with excess baggage - a.k.a. "loaded language."

Does you understand now?
Varanus wrote:
The Nick wrote:Check out the third and fourth panel. And the strip in the water. Those are NOT the positions of somebody who is not cognizant of their position. Check out that finger-nibbling. That is NOT the action of a girl who despises somebody and wants to actively commit an act of murder against Faith. Look at them from one panel to the next - they're far from the pool and then they go to the pool.

In general, while I might be willing to bathe with some people who I wouldn't be willing to smooch, all of these actions taken together suggest something about Melissa. Now, being willing to bathe with Faith and being willing to marry her are two entirely different ballparks; being willing to kill Faith for even breaching the air within 20 feet of her and being willing to hang out with Faith in vaguely-naughty-but-never-consummated ways are equally distant ballparks.

It's entirely legitimate that Melissa doesn't want to make a decision but doesn't want to punch Faith in the face with a knife. Everybody seems to be insisting that either Melissa wants to do the sexorz with Faith or Melissa is about to be raped. What I'm suggesting is something much more rationale and reasonable and in the middle (as most things in life are) - maybe she's willing to do SOME things with Faith and probably doesn't want to actually commit an act of murder against her, but neither of the girls are willing to do any of the extreme bold-faced actions to each other
Just to be clear, as your frustration implies to me you may think this, I am not one of the people calling Faith an evil rapist slut or any equivalent. I simply am arguing that especially with the lack of information on just what really happened and what was going through Melissa's mind it is pretty easy for me to read a darker interpretation of the above scene. Obviously other people had very different reactions to the scene, and understanding both reactions is something I am interested in doing, though naturally I have tried hard to explain all the reasons for my interpretation.
Hey, no frustration here. I'm just trying to be clear with italics and bolds. While I might disagree with people, I appreciate the ones who make well-thought arguments or bring up interesting points.
David Johnston wrote:
jaimehlers wrote:How did Faith get Mel into the water? Probably by suggesting that they could take a dip together.

I mean, really. Comics and such have to leave out details that aren't particularly relevant or important (unless they're doing fillers, which this wasn't, and even then the details have to be important to the filler plot), meaning that if a scene (like two girls getting undressed) is left out, then it didn't have any real relevance to the plot, unless it's retroactively given importance later on within the comic. Which this hasn't been.

So posing questions like, "isn't it highly uncharacteristic of Mel to undress herself in the dream" and "would it make what Faith did worse if she mentally undressed Melissa and got her in the water", are only speculative. The fact of the matter is that if the 'undressing' scene had been important, it would have been part of the comic. Since it wasn't part of the comic, it's not reasonable to give it any real importance.
That may be true but at the same it is important that Melissa never acted before or since in the way she acted in the hallucination up until her magical girl destiny intervened and let her break free. If that isn't coercion using psychic powers, then I think it's open to question whether anyone at the school has any psychic powers.
That's a loaded phrase: coercion using psychic powers. It's like saying kids going to the prom are attempting to sexually assault their dates via coercion using renting-a-limo powers. If Faith had done the same stuff behind a closed door and Melissa said, 'Sure, ok, I know the door is closed so I can't get out (unless I open it, which, since this is a shared room, I can do), so let's do what you want,' that would not be rape. That's implicitly given consent. While you might argue that Faith had a hand in making the view "extra-pretty", that does not automatically imply rape.

Simply put, every attempt at sex isn't rape, especially when the attempt in question respects the person's personhood and respects the person's ability to say yes or no.

When I take girls out for dates, I take them to fun locations (like movies) or pretty places (like scenic overlooks on mountains and beaches). This does not imply rape any more than the converse (taking girls to terrible events like dogfights or to dirty places like the town dump) imply a respectful and healthy relationship with said dating girl.
Crystafent82 wrote:And unlike Bleach the writing of the Pixie Tricks Comics has been far more consistend.
Ooh, BLEACHBURN! +1
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by TBeholder »

The Nick wrote:-It wasn't necessarily sexual in the way some people are using it, i.e. full penetration or whatever hard-core imaginings people want to imagine. I mean, there's an element of 'sexual' to it, but you can say the same thing about a 12 year-old giving a Valentine's Day heart to a girl; there's an 'element' of sexual but we're hardly expecting the children of to be fornicating between recess and fifth period snack time.
-It wasn't necessarily 'touching' for metaphysical mind-spaced reasons. But this is a silly argument and irrelevant. More specifically, it was probably touching (for our purposes of the term), but that's not really so bad.
The Nick wrote:
TBeholder wrote:If "12 year-old giving a Valentine's Day heart" being used as an analogy for trapping and locking someone away, stunning, stripping naked and groping is still not enough to make you drop the arguing about this as hopeless, nothing will. =))
Is this trolling or just vaguely inappropriate pedophilia humor? It definitely makes me uncomfortable.
Either way, I'll choose to respond to this in a serious way:
The comparison I was making was not (as you seem to imply or accuse me of) approving of taking advantage of 12 year-olds.
Let me repeat that again, TBeholder: my statement does not imply approval for taking advantage of 12 year-olds. [...] Does you understand now?
Haah-ha... :)) Wait... :-s are you still trolling or "protesting too much" now? It's hard to tell apart sometimes. /:)
The Nick wrote:Simply put, every attempt at sex isn't rape, especially when the attempt in question respects the person's personhood and respects the person's ability to say yes or no.
So, uh, while depriving someone of said ability certainly acknowledges it, does this constitue respect to it?
Please go on, now that this dropped past absurd, there's no reason to stop. =))
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by David Johnston »

The Nick wrote:
That may be true but at the same it is important that Melissa never acted before or since in the way she acted in the hallucination up until her magical girl destiny intervened and let her break free. If that isn't coercion using psychic powers, then I think it's open to question whether anyone at the school has any psychic powers.
That's a loaded phrase: coercion using psychic powers. It's like saying kids going to the prom are attempting to sexually assault their dates via coercion using renting-a-limo powers. If Faith had done the same stuff behind a closed door and Melissa said, 'Sure, ok, I know the door is closed so I can't get out (unless I open it, which, since this is a shared room, I can do),
Except you know...she can't. Not without possessing powers Faith didn't expect to "break the window". Had Melissa not have been an apparently divinely chosen champion of right, she would have been locked in that dream world for as much subjective time as Faith desired. That's why Faith was so surprised that Melissa did in fact break free of the attack.

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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Fluffy »

The Nick wrote:Rather, in case it isn't crystal-clear, I was instead arguing about the dubious usage of the term 'sexual'. Specifically, it was being used to imply that anything with a hint of sexual overtones automatically implies 100% full-on non-consensual penetration; my counter-argument is that even relatively innocent actions or claims have a shade of sexuality (say, young children proclaiming they want to marry their Valentine and have babies when they're all grown up) but suggesting that a youth's understanding of relationships and how their parents make storks bring babies is synonymous with rape is a controversial and non-productive claim and only serves to muddy the argument due to the usage and introduction of imprecise terms with excess baggage - a.k.a. "loaded language."
Are you saying that kids only give Valentine's Day cards to kids they want to marry/have children with? Because, from what I can recall of those days, we exchanged cards out of politeness/friendship - not because we crushed/loved on one another (at that age, kids have no idea what love is).

Simply put - there is a tremendous difference between children exchanging Valentine's Day cards and the behavior of a psychic esper locking a young woman in a dream and clearly attempting to seduce her. There is just no comparison - as one is innocent and the other is not (and it's damned near impossible not to tell which is which).
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by The Nick »

You misunderstand the point. Please re-read my previous post.

The analogy I'm pointing at is not to suggest kids rape each other on Valentine's Day. This is putting words into my mouth. The point of the analogy is to say that a sexy touch on the lip and shoulders, while an act inherently tinged with an overt aura of sexuality, is not sex or rape. To put it another way, a teasing touch on the shoulders that is reciprocated or accepted is not taking advantage of a girl, especially one who allows it, accepts it, and doesn't do anything to stop it while in fact encouraging it with her words and actions. This is totally different from a person who is handcuffed down while kicking and screaming.

The problem with what you're saying is that you're implying that anything sexual, from a kid giving a Valentine's Day heart to a girl asking another girl if they 'might possibly maybe in certain circumstances MAYBE like me please circle yet or not' are ALL BAD ACTIONS, because sex automatically equates to sinful. i.e slut-shaming. What is particularly ridiculous about this brand of slut-shaming is that there isn't even any actual "slutting." So far, all she's done is ask if Melissa likes her, answer yes or no (the kindergarten equivalent would be the 'do you like me circle YES or NO' scrap note).


Unfortunately, any further ideas on your part are just that - ideas. Fanon, at best. The suggestion that Faith was definitely locking Melissa into a dream to seduce her whether or not she agrees with it is impossible to prove without explicitly denying aspects of the narration that seem fairly reliable. Specifically, Faith tells us the choice is Melissa's. Faith tells us the dream was Melissa's. Faith tells us that she'd rather consensually make alternate arrangements with Melissa rather than fight her. Yeah, it's possible that she's lying, but you'd be denying the narrative. Remember, the errant brain-girl distraction in the analogy of Melissa and Faith in a different room would not be Melissa's little sister picking the lock to her door so that Melissa could escape from a felonious sexual act on Faith's part, but rather Oh crap, my little sister ran into the room halfway between snuggles and kisses. That sure ruins the mood and now we have to get out of this room and go back to the other room, which has COMBAT TO THE DEATH (or whatever) in it. Oh well, maybe next time.

Alternatively, I could equally say Faith was going to murder Melissa in her brain-space where nobody could prove she did it, then drag her body away to be analyzed by Sandy. Simply because it's within the realm of possible doesn't mean it's guaranteed.

And finally, to reiterate: you entirely miss the point of my original response and in doing so, you've attached a strawman argument here. Simply put, just because Faith is interested in kissing Melissa doesn't mean she's going to sexually assault Melissa and that's a terrible way of thinking about women who sometimes make overtures on other women (i.e. lesbians).

David Johnston wrote:
The Nick wrote:
That may be true but at the same it is important that Melissa never acted before or since in the way she acted in the hallucination up until her magical girl destiny intervened and let her break free. If that isn't coercion using psychic powers, then I think it's open to question whether anyone at the school has any psychic powers.
That's a loaded phrase: coercion using psychic powers. It's like saying kids going to the prom are attempting to sexually assault their dates via coercion using renting-a-limo powers. If Faith had done the same stuff behind a closed door and Melissa said, 'Sure, ok, I know the door is closed so I can't get out (unless I open it, which, since this is a shared room, I can do),
Except you know...she can't. Not without possessing powers Faith didn't expect to "break the window". Had Melissa not have been an apparently divinely chosen champion of right, she would have been locked in that dream world for as much subjective time as Faith desired. That's why Faith was so surprised that Melissa did in fact break free of the attack.
So just to clarify, you're saying that Faith's intention was undeniably and 100% definitively to sexually assault Melissa in a method designed to be traumatic and hurtful and the only reason Melissa escaped was because she had a secret trick up her sleeve in the form of dream-memory girl?

That's a subjective statement on your part that is not backed up by the narrative. While it's not outside the realm of possibility (even if it's only 0.00001% likely), there are many more likely possibilities that have evidence that you can specifically point at. Specifically, I'll point at everything Faith said about how the dream works and everything Faith said about her goal. Faith specifically said her goal was to win without violence, that the dream was a shared plane, and that Melissa had choice; she concluded by asking Melissa a question and giving Melissa the option of what to say and do (a rather gentlemanly act, ha ha).

Simply put, if you have the option to leave, the option to say no, and the person is asking you questions about if you like them or not (not even if you like them, but if you could possibly like them for 'reasons'), this is not a sexual assault. You'll see more offensive actions out of fourth graders on a playground than what Faith is doing.

Again, like I said above, Faith could just be lying - perhaps she's planning to do something TEN TIMES more terrible than anything suggested above and steal all of Melissa's memories and kill her. That COULD BE TRUE. However, so far, Faith hasn't done anything to suggest she's a murderous schoolgirl bent on using mind-tricks to maximize the pain and suffering of her victims after setting them up to think they're in for a relaxing soak in some hot springs (because it makes them cry harder, assumably). Instead, we have evidence that Faith might be a little misguided but that she fundamentally respects people on some level. While we may disagree on that particular level, I hope I've made clear why "rapist" is not the term we should converge on to describe her actions. Because, frankly, to think otherwise means that you're accepting a reality wherein any dude who asks a girl if they like him is actually planning a terrible crime.

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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Don Alexander »

Considering the fact that someone has reported someone else's post, and I at the moment have way, WAY more important things to do than reading through this entire monstrum of a thread, I'm locking it until I find the time to peruse what the hell you are so angrily discussing here.

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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Don Alexander »

~X(

Well, I've now finally finished this... unspeakable thing of a thread, and it's actually even worse than I thought. Not just is most of the thread an eternal navel-gaze at things from the past (just as the "Obsessed with Hellrune" thread which deals with exactly the same topics), but in the last few pages, it's become more and more uncivilized.

TBeholder: It was actually one of your posts which was reported. Now, of course a lot of what you write ads to the discussion, and there's quite a few things I even agree with you with...

... a lot of your posts also look like this:

Forumite wrote:Stuff
*Here I make fun of your statement* *add smiley*
[Repeat five times]

It's abrasive and comes across as trollish. You've already been warned once. Stop it.

Absinthe Green: I already wrote you a long PM in January which, unless my records are way off, you did not respond to. This is not your forum and you have no right to "push back" in the way you do (which, believe me, comes across as really petty childish...). S-FM saying "...wow. That first paragraph has got to be the most glaring projection I've ever seen." is rather provocative but does not give you the right to fly off the handle and rant about "Whiny Little Hothouse Flower Dickwolves Who Engage In Disingenuous Ad Hominems" - I don't even recognize an ad hominem there - quite in contrast to what you write later.

Therefore, warning issued.

The Nick: See the other thread. You are really quick to accuse people of ad hominems and "hate", while you yourself twist people's words (case in point above: Nowhere did Fluffy make the statement that you were suggesting that "kids rape each other on Valentine's Day" - you are putting words in her mouth.). Not to mention - this goes to Absinthe Green too - I in no way see how holding a certain anti-Faith position and being of the opinion that she was doing creepy things to Mel in the dream sequence automatically makes these forumites "slut-shamers". (As others have pointed out as well.)

Originally, up to the last few pages, I had been thinking of writing a long list of (non-green) commentary on what has been discussed here, even if it adds several whacks to the dead horse, but by now I'm entirely fed up with this thread. Therefore it stays locked. (Not to mention I'm not keeping anyone from dragging the horse carcass out of the barn and flogging it some more in upcoming threads... ;) )

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