Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

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Gotoh
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Gotoh »

dex drako wrote:@Gotoh
just stop trying to make Mel some happy participant in faith's little fantasy she was not, it was an unwanted sexual advance that took an outside force to stop it. at best what faith did was a form of sexual harassment at worst it was violation of Mel far greater then any physical rape could be. but either way you look at it it's a clear case of Faith abusing her power to get her own way. you asked why people thing she's more evil then good I say it's because they've read the comic.
Apparently not, since we haven't seen her do anything evil. Morally grey, sure. But outright evil? Hardly.

If that's what you honestly think, then you're basically ignoring everything I've shown you; including multiple instances of her coming to the aid of others.
dex drako wrote:Faith is a arrogant self centered jerk that treats people like playthings, (1)forsakes her responsibilities and acts she's gods gift to mankind (2)and can do no wrong. yes there is good in her but most of her action are over shadowed by these flaws which makes it hard to see most of the time. you like her and thats great but everything I've said is true no matter how much you try to fight it.
Re (1): to Faith forsaking her responsibilities

She took charge during the breastplate raids and coordinated the efforts to recover them. Which illustrated the point TCampbell made about Faith's leadership ability and how the students defer to her during an attack. Plus, she was conducting an investigation on what may have been a threat to the school.


Re (2): to Faith thinks she can do no wrong.

Faith: "Winters, that vampire is running free now. You know whose fualt that is?"

Tiffany: (thinking) "I'm sorry, I'm a miserable failure, I don't know why I can't just--"

Faith: "It's mine. I could've killed her easily. Instead, I nearly killed myself. Your selflessness inspires me. It makes me want to be a better hero, a better person."

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Absinthe Green
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Absinthe Green »

What I'm finding genuinely disturbing is that there are plenty of real-life commenters who harbour such loathing of a sex-positive fictional character that they're willing to argue the worst motivations on her behalf to the point of doing the Reducio Ad Absurdum - Strawman - Ad Hominem Jitterbug to dance around the fact that Faith's defenders have the simpler, stronger arguments. I've noticed a consistent pattern in the Pixie Trix / Hiveworks / Seven Seas Community comment threads where the Neuters keep trying to rhetorically reverse-engineer their abhorrence for Girls-Who-Like-To-F**k into some sort of word-salad of claims that sound a bit like an actual argument that justifies their repugnance prima facie, but falls apart upon actual inspection. Kudos to Gototh for doing the heavy lifting in that department.

What's getting lost in the rumpus over Faith is that Melissa is Cerise's real target. I'm guessing that eating up and shitting out the self-confidence of someone Melissa failed in knocking out of the top-dog spot in front of an audience composed of the school's alpha-females is Cerise's opening volley in the new battle between her and her number one frienemy - a way of telling Melissa that she's next. Cerise's fighting style revolves around psyching out her opponent; of putting on powerful displays that browbeat her opponents into submission. I also imagine that Cerise is being perfectly honest with her exposition re: the nature of Faith's popularity - both her & Skye are in uniform, they look like they're in the Principal's Office, so its reasonable that not only has Cerise hacked into the power-source the school harbours and shut out everyone else, but that she's able to use it as a transmitter and use Faith as a receiver because of Faith's prior connection.
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Storm-forge mystique
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Storm-forge mystique »

...wow. That first paragraph has got to be the most glaring projection I've ever seen.

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Absinthe Green
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Absinthe Green »

Whoops! I forgot to add bad faith knee-jerkoff hostility to good faith attempts at analysis. I'm sorry you're having trouble keeping up, but I'm grateful for your efforts in proving my point re: ad hominems - you're a big help. Honest.
:-*
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by TBeholder »

Luzahn wrote: I'm suspecting that everybody in the woods is going to end up infiltrating brainwashed-zombie-school
No, no. You mixed them up. The one collecting lovesick zombies is Faith. The only thing Cerise is almost guaranteed to violate with extreme prejudice is their dress code. :ymdevil:
Maybe this sort of retribution is Hekate's new plan? If Skye's new ungodly taste in clothes is any example, next to the whole school doing this blondie's attempts at playing dolls with Melissa will look tame and unimaginative.
Luzahn wrote: to take down Cerise. It just seems like something one would do. I mean, the authors did write all of the best fighters into one place...
Of course, they would try. And find out that Svetlana, Veronique and probably a lot more snapped out of it and now wait impatiently for some... "discussing the student body" with Faith, just not quite in the sense she used this phrase. :))
Luzahn wrote:That might not have been the best plan, Cerise. :p
Remaking the school in her image, considering her... rather precarious position there? Yup.
mikbuster wrote:Umm... it would be more like trapping Mel's mind in this chat room so that she had no choice but to be there and then lots of talking.
...and stripping... and grabbing...
I don't see a lot of "talking" from Melissa there. Only derping in responce to suggestions. Really, is she a shy girl who can't put two words together or what? Again, compare to the scene with Rain. That time it was talking. Melissa did nothing, but still clearly crushed Rain - and compared to the whole pawing and "you admire my strength, right?" thing that challenge was by far less bold and more sensible.
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by vampire hunter D »

Mel seemed more confused than subdued. Like she wasn't entirely sure what was going on.
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Varanus »

Absinthe Green wrote:What I'm finding genuinely disturbing is that there are plenty of real-life commenters who harbour such loathing of a sex-positive fictional character that they're willing to argue the worst motivations on her behalf to the point of doing the Reducio Ad Absurdum - Strawman - Ad Hominem Jitterbug to dance around the fact that Faith's defenders have the simpler, stronger arguments. I've noticed a consistent pattern in the Pixie Trix / Hiveworks / Seven Seas Community comment threads where the Neuters keep trying to rhetorically reverse-engineer their abhorrence for Girls-Who-Like-To-F**k into some sort of word-salad of claims that sound a bit like an actual argument that justifies their repugnance prima facie, but falls apart upon actual inspection. Kudos to Gototh for doing the heavy lifting in that department.
I can't speak for others but Faith being sex-positive has never been an issue for me. Heck I've never held much criticism for any of the characters on MA3 (aside from Matt for being a jerk in relationships and a little at Dillon for hypocrisy). It's the arguable abuse of power and morally grey beliefs that makes me critical of Faith.
Last edited by Varanus on Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by mikbuster »

Absinthe Green wrote:What I'm finding genuinely disturbing is that there are plenty of real-life commenters who harbour such loathing of a sex-positive fictional character that they're willing to argue the worst motivations on her behalf to the point of doing the Reducio Ad Absurdum - Strawman - Ad Hominem Jitterbug to dance around the fact that Faith's defenders have the simpler, stronger arguments. I've noticed a consistent pattern in the Pixie Trix / Hiveworks / Seven Seas Community comment threads where the Neuters keep trying to rhetorically reverse-engineer their abhorrence for Girls-Who-Like-To-F**k into some sort of word-salad of claims that sound a bit like an actual argument that justifies their repugnance prima facie, but falls apart upon actual inspection. Kudos to Gototh for doing the heavy lifting in that department.

What's getting lost in the rumpus over Faith is that Melissa is Cerise's real target. I'm guessing that eating up and shitting out the self-confidence of someone Melissa failed in knocking out of the top-dog spot in front of an audience composed of the school's alpha-females is Cerise's opening volley in the new battle between her and her number one frienemy - a way of telling Melissa that she's next. Cerise's fighting style revolves around psyching out her opponent; of putting on powerful displays that browbeat her opponents into submission. I also imagine that Cerise is being perfectly honest with her exposition re: the nature of Faith's popularity - both her & Skye are in uniform, they look like they're in the Principal's Office, so its reasonable that not only has Cerise hacked into the power-source the school harbours and shut out everyone else, but that she's able to use it as a transmitter and use Faith as a receiver because of Faith's prior connection.
Umm... could you specify those commenters that "harbour such loathing of a sex-positive fictional character that they're willing to argue the worst motivations on her behalf"? The last time Gotoh was dismissive like that of the people that disagreed with him and I said that I didn't fit his mold of detractors I was told I wasn't the one being talked about. So, let the people that hate Faith because she has sex know that it's not because she's done several things that are wrong and been presented as the opposite of the champion of goodness that the MMAA sees herself as?
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Fluffy »

Absinthe Green wrote:What I'm finding genuinely disturbing is that there are plenty of real-life commenters who harbour such loathing of a sex-positive fictional character that they're willing to argue the worst motivations on her behalf to the point of doing the Reducio Ad Absurdum - Strawman - Ad Hominem Jitterbug to dance around the fact that Faith's defenders have the simpler, stronger arguments. I've noticed a consistent pattern in the Pixie Trix / Hiveworks / Seven Seas Community comment threads where the Neuters keep trying to rhetorically reverse-engineer their abhorrence for Girls-Who-Like-To-F**k into some sort of word-salad of claims that sound a bit like an actual argument that justifies their repugnance prima facie, but falls apart upon actual inspection. Kudos to Gototh for doing the heavy lifting in that department.
Being one of these anti-Faith people that you mentioned, I can say this much - the fact that she has so many lovers is not the issue for me, but how she's managed to get so many (and the evidence that has been presented to show how she accomplished that). Consciously or not, she essentially brainwashed almost the entire student body into loving her, which is wrong.

So now, instead of accepting the fact that Faith had essentially forced all these girls to fall in love with her, the Faith supporters are choosing to ignore the fact and claim Cerise is lying; claiming that all past incidents with Faith working her mojo on people are largely imagined/made up by the anti-Faith peeps in an attempt to villainize her.
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Gotoh »

mikbuster wrote:The last time Gotoh was dismissive like that of the people that disagreed with him and I said that I didn't fit his mold of detractors I was told I wasn't the one being talked about.
Just wanted to pop in to clarify I wasn't being dismissive of anyone when I said that. At least, that wasn't my intention. I just didn't see a need to single anyone out in particular since Faith's detractors already know who they are.

That said, the new strip is up, so this'll be my last post in this thread.

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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by The Nick »

dex drako wrote:
The Nick wrote:You're acting like she slipped a date-rape drug into her drink or bashed her on the head to the point of concussion to render her incapable of saying no.
new flash mind control is the the ultimate Date rape duge.

read the first text bubble on this page again. Mel had no inhibitions and it is our inhibitions that allow us to say "NO" at that point mel might as well have been drunk off her A$$ or as high as a kite because any the part the part of her that could say "NO" couldn't be used. that means Faith was knowingly taking advantage of Mel while she was in diminished mental capacity state. so yes I am saying Faith "date raped druged" Mel. because by Faith's own words it was next to impossinle for Mel to say "No" becuae those parts of her brain were not invited to the party.

which is very different then someone being stunned as you tryed to put it and a lot closer to the lead up to a rape.

now we're not twisting anything the molesting and rape like moments are there but what would be a creepy/horrible events in real life is just played down as a joke in a comic. the problem is some of us see throught the joke to the unintended consequences the joke would have in real life.
Luzahn wrote:Looking at Cerise in that last panel, I have to wonder whether she is at the school.

I'm suspecting that everybody in the woods is going to end up infiltrating brainwashed-zombie-school to take down Cerise. It just seems like something one would do. I mean, the authors did write all of the best fighters into one place...

That might not have been the best plan, Cerise. :p
think about it Cerise gathered all her greatest threats in one place where they're surrounded by an army of mind controled animals. now that sounds like a great plan to try and get rid of them all at the same time to me.
the_Bear wrote:Some people just seem to try to see everything Faith does in a worst light possible. She has plenty of her own character faults, no need to invent them. Since Tiffany acknowledged Faith's explanation regarding risk of blood infection, there is no reason for readers to doubt that Artemis hunters are very wary of anything monster related to the point of paranoia. While we don't know for sure if Faith's intervention was beneficial or disruptive to Melissa, from her point of view it was clear that there was something wrong with Mel and it was related to the object inside her, so trying to pull it out was pretty logical course of action, especially since there might be no time to deliberate. And while we discuss Faith saving the day, she declined to use weapons that could hurt possessed students at the risk to her own life, even when Tiffany thought it would be morally permissible, so clearly she is willing to sacrifice herself for others sake. Faith for me seems to want to be a good "guy", a heroine, like she thinks Tiffany kinda is, she just is too blinded by her huge ego, even if she starts to recognize this as a problem, she doesn't seem to know how to start dealing with it. She does seem to have a moral "core" , some kind of code of conduct she never crosses, though it could be a bit stricter, and what's important she doesn't seem to be malicious. Faith could make a great heroine if she had enough character growth to deal with her faults, which she might get quite soon.
and it can be said there are some people who just seem to try to see everything Faith does in the best light poissble as well.

I think faith's character can best be described by the old saying the road to hell is paved with good intentions. yes Faith wants to be the "good guy" but even the most vile villains are all trying to be the "good guy" the best way they know how so that's not good enough.

was Fiath trying to help Tiff sure but did she need to strip her completely nude and leave her that way, no she did that because she enjoyed it while knowing Tiff would find it creepy.
was faith trying to save Mel from the wand sure but keeping the wand like she did was not out of any kind of vertue.
Faith didn't want to hurt those possessed students but at the same time she has no trouble treating the whole student body as her slaves and sexual plaything with little interest in how they feel about it.
Faith wouldn't touch someone chest without them saying she could but she has no problem of messing with that person mind to get her to say yes.

all in all faith is a horrible character and I hope she learns a lot from this.
Eh, I've told girls that no inhibitions exist on Valentine's Day/in Disneyland/during Mardi Gras/behind closed doors, but that doesn't mean they automatically listen to me like they're my mind-slaves. It's clever language, there.

Also, if you want to play the 'it's all a dream' angle, it's MELISSA's dream.

On top of that, you're saying 'no inhibitions' means that Melissa is being taken advantage of. But the VERY NEXT THING that she says is "Nothing is forced." That's... literally the opposite of what you're suggesting Faith is trying to do.

Stuttering is not out-of-character so much that we can determine it was a rape attempt. People sometimes stutter in embarrassing situations or situations they truly enjoy. No matter WHAT extreme you think Melissa falls in, misspeaking two little words is not enough evidence to claim Faith is a felon.

Also, she's not actually stuttering. She's just pausing between words, unsure of what to say. Is it possible Faith is a good reader of people (whether it's because she's insightful or she looks into Melissa's mind) and what she's accusing Melissa of is exactly what Melissa honestly believes, even if she doesn't consciously know it? Don't you think the possibility that being confronted with such a world-shaking revelation about one's sense of self takes more than 2.5 seconds to formulate a complete and thorough response to (especially considering how much disrespect she's shown to Cerise for the very same reasons)?
dex drako wrote:what you're describing is only one form of mind control and not the only form, any time one character goes into another characters mind to coerce someone to do something they wouldn't do otherwise is a form or mind control and that's what Faith did.
Merely going to a place to try and get somebody to do something that they wouldn't do elsewhere isn't automatically MIND CONTROL or RAPE.

If I suggest that people should make out with heavy petting in private and not in my classroom, that doesn't mean I'm exerting MIND CONTROL or RAPING them by trying to convince them to alter their behavior.

Doing seduction 'in the mind' would be the same as Faith suggesting Melissa come back to her room to be seduced as opposed to the school hallway between classes - she's suggesting there's certain places where you have inhibitions to do certain things and certain places those inhibitions don't exist. I'm not comfortable stripping naked on Main Street, for example, but I do it every single night when I take a shower in my bathroom and it doesn't bother me at all.



TBeholder wrote:
The Nick wrote:Sometimes, when people are nervous in front of girls they like, they stutter.
...and so on and on. I don't see any point to argue this point further as long as you're still imitating Gotoh's habit of burying any inconvenient questions in mostly-irrelevant verbal mazes. Have fun training Fluffy for demagogy resistance, however. :)
Come on, dude. There's no need for the blatant disrespect or the hate.

I'm not 'burying inconvenient questions'. I've answered ALL the questions asked of me. I'm merely suggesting a totally reasonable and plausible explanation for why somebody might speak slowly - their mental paradigm has been shifted by the weight of the suggestion that Faith has presented is a totally legitimate reason to pause for a moment and evaluate your next words.

Once, a police officer called me and I thought they told me that my parents were dead. I didn't immediately and without delay ask them for verifying information - I was STUNNED and took more than 2.5 seconds while saying, "wait... wait..." before I could even think of something to say. This is not abnormal behavior nor does it paint me as a wimp or anything. It's just how people with emotions act in emotional times.
mikbuster wrote:Umm... it would be more like trapping Mel's mind in this chat room so that she had no choice but to be there and then lots of talking.
It was during a combat exam. Gotoh's explanation is actually a pretty good way of describing it.

It was a combat exam. If Faith stepped in and punched Melissa, people would be saying, "Faith is a violent aggressive sociopath with no sense of self-control or sympathy for others! Look at how easily she hits other people and Melissa didn't even punch her or provoke her once!" While this would be true in another situation (say, if Melissa were having lunch and Faith just dogpiled her with all of her friends), you have to take into consideration that they were voluntarily and consentingly placing themselves into a situation with clearly stated goals that might cause each other to have a slightly unpleasant experience. Heck, we've had combat training that involves ceremonial arm breaking and people were like, 'yeah, that's just hard training'.
Storm-forge mystique wrote:...wow. That first paragraph has got to be the most glaring projection I've ever seen.
You realize that you're implying that Absinthe Green hates sex-positive fictional characters when I'm pretty sure AG's opening paragraph is a strong denunciation against the people who arbitrarily declare 'liking sex = evil'.
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by mikbuster »

Nick, that scenario eliminates all negative connotations, making it highly inaccurate. It is strongly implied by the part about a stray memory not being able to do that that she was stuck there. Melissa has repeatedly said she's not interested in Faith, so being naked in a pool with her probably wasn't high on her list of things she wanted. During combat not everything goes. If you gas a city of innocent people just to kill a handful of rebels, that's a war crime.
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That one's easy: it's because it sounds disgusting. Society's got nothing to do with that. ~Gotoh

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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by TBeholder »

Absinthe Green wrote:What I'm finding genuinely disturbing is that there are plenty of real-life commenters who harbour such loathing of a sex-positive fictional character [...] Strawman - Ad Hominem
Damn, but the clumsy hypocrisy is funny. I'll unignore him if the forum gets boring again.
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by David Johnston »

My conclusion about the most recent strips is that Tiff was in fact right about Faiths strange connection to the school, and I was right that she was using it to influence the minds of other students, but Faith didn't know she was doing it and so gets a partial pass. I only say partial because groping your opponent in the middle of combat under the assumption that she'll just forget about the fight and start making out with you is not at all Marquis of Queensbery approved. I can kind of understand why Faith reached the conclusion that everyone really wants her and those who pretend not to are just preserving their pride and their image but Faith has definitely shaky on the distinction between what she wants and what is right.

But she's not evil. She's an over-powered self-centered teenager but she isn't actually trying to inflict suffering and misery on the people around her, usually.

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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by TBeholder »

David Johnston wrote:My conclusion about the most recent strips is that Tiff was in fact right about Faiths strange connection to the school, and I was right that she was using it to influence the minds of other students,
This doesn't require a "conclusion" - the first part was shown and the second is obvious.
David Johnston wrote: but Faith didn't know she was doing it
She didn't know what she was doing to Melissa, or she didn't know she was using some incantation when Tiffany resisted her? Please, clarify.
David Johnston wrote: But she's not evil. She's an over-powered self-centered teenager but she isn't actually trying to inflict suffering and misery on the people around her, usually.
The same probably could be said about Queen Lamia. :))
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