Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

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Gotoh
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Gotoh »

Varanus wrote:As I said in my reply to The Nick (some may have missed it as its the last post on the previous page) that seems relevant here regarding the whole "did Faith try to rape Melissa" thing:

Was it attempted rape? I don't think so, but it is definitely an example of something that the writers have stated in the past that Faith views as ethically okay but that normal people may not see as okay. We have confirmation Faith does not intentionally make people love her, but at the same time it has long been admitted Faith's sense of morality is not the norm.
True, the editor's said that more than once and even started a thread which encompassed that topic (which, sadly, got derailed). I've even jokingly referred to her as Jean "Grey" now and then, for that reason.
Varanus wrote:That is we get into a much more gray area when Faith somehow gets herself and Mel naked in the water and tries to lead her to admit that she loves her (which Mel plainly does not). That Mel acts very out of character (have we ever seen her do that "I... I..." stuff before or since? ) until fade-out-girl appears is what causes many readers to think Faith was doing something to Mel's mind to make her more receptive to her advances, something more than just giving her a nice scenery.
Here's how I see it: was it invasive? Yes, but we have to consider Faith's intent and the circumstances.

From what we've seen, that was not an example of Faith's typical behavior. She doesn't stroll down the halls of Artemis pulling random girls into dream worlds with her. She did that during a combat exam. The only other instance where she's done anything similar, was when she bloodlusted Layla, which was another combat situation.

In combat, it's permissible for certain rules to bent, broken, or completely ignored depending on the circumstances. Normally, a lot people wouldn't kill. But if their lives being threatened and they happen to have a loaded gun, they might. Faith's goal was to win by way of seduction and, had Melissa consented, Faith would have succeeded. Coaxing your opponent to surrender that way is unorthodox and unethical, by our standards. By her standards, however, she'd likely argue she'd done nothing wrong. After all, where's the harm in creating a bit of mood (scenery, lighting, music, etc.) to ask a cute girl if she likes you?

Was it her intent to rape Melissa? No. She has the power and the ability to do that, but she didn't, because we've been told she finds rape sick, evil, and wrong.

Did she force the issue, or try to harm her in any way? No. She created a picturesque scene and tried to seduce her, but that was as far as it went.
Last edited by Gotoh on Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

dex drako
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by dex drako »

what you're missing Gotoh is the only reason I see Faith as a morally grey character is because she is "mind-controlling b*tch" as you coined it. her character flaws are 1) treats the rest of the charactes like object to play with instead of human beings in other word she's a B*tch and 2) knowingly and unknowingly abusing her powers and position for her own personal gain. I mean if you take away Faith "mind-controlling b*tch" what's left of her moral gray zone?

Gotoh wrote: Except she wasn't controlling Melissa's mind.

Had that been the case, Faith could've fed her a post-hypnotic suggestion and called it a day. Instead, she asked her a couple of questions. That isn't mind control.
what you're describing is only one form of mind control and not the only form, any time one character goes into another characters mind to coerce someone to do something they wouldn't do otherwise is a form or mind control and that's what Faith did.
Gotoh wrote: Since you've linked to that strip, I want you to take a look a what she said in that panel.

Here's what she said: "Inhibitions don't exist in dreams, Melissa... nothing's forced. We can be honest here."

Here's how you're interpreting it: "I turned your inhibitions off so you can't say "no" to me."

See the difference?
yes because faiths words can't be a rationalization of the facts.

our inhibitions do not keeping us from our true seleves they are our true selves. this is why after a night of drinking way to much and waking up next to some strange person or with some stupid tattoo people don't say "thank goodness I got drunk last night and did that." tho faith is right in a way with out our inhibitions we're nothing but mindless aminals incapable of of doing anything but acting base instincts. which why people who are high or drunk can't give permission when it come to things like saying yes or no to sex in the eye's of U.S. law.
gotoh wrote:Sounds counterproductive, considering she's trying to win her over. I doubt she had much time for ogling Tiff anyway.

thank you for proving my point that Faith cares so litte for Tiff's feelings and boundaries.
gotoh wrote: Even though the wand was perceived as a possible threat to Melissa and the school, which Tiffany couldn't refute, and later had to wonder about, herself?

I'm not saying Faith wasn't just looking to satisfy her own curiosity about it, but she raised a couple of good points there. And the school's resident champion of justice more or less agreed those concerns weren't entirely unwarranted.
tho I agree this would have made a fun story so I understand why it didn't happen this way but if Faith really cared she should've alert the school and let the people that know more about these things deal with it. but again that all happen for the plot so whatever right.
gotoh wrote:Show me a single one of those girls boo-hooing afterwards, claiming Faith's used them, or taken advantage of them.
well seeing they were all under some form of mind controlled it's not amazing they would I expect that to happen to some small degree at least after this fight is all said and done.

Gotoh
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Gotoh »

dex drako wrote:what you're missing Gotoh is the only reason I see Faith as a morally grey character is because she is "mind-controlling b*tch" as you coined it.
Actually, it was "evil mind-controlling b*tch", but whateves (jk) :p
dex drako wrote:her character flaws are 1) treats the rest of the charactes like object to play with instead of human beings in other word she's a B*tch
Then you and the character disagree, because she said "her heart was big enough for all of them", but would rather be with someone she considers a peer. And, we've seen her stick her neck out for them more than once.

1. Regadless whether you believe she saved Melissa, or not, she perceived her life to be in danger and jeapordized her own safety to try to save Mel.

2. The same as she refused to kill Svletvana and Veronique though they were possessed and trying to kill her and Tiffany, at the time. And was beaten unconscious for her trouble, while trying to buy Tiffany time to get the wand.

3. Also note: she was trying to protect Sandi and Melissa, despite her worsening condition.

4. And I've already mentioned how she saved her best friend's life when Skye tried to kill her. Nevermind that she had no idea what she was dealing with when she made that decision.

But this is the "b*tch" you say doesn't care about anyone else, 'cuz they're just objects to her.
dex drako wrote:and 2) knowingly and unknowingly abusing her powers and position for her own personal gain. I mean if you take away Faith "mind-controlling b*tch" what's left of her moral gray zone?
If she's done it unknowingly, it can't be held against her since she wouldn't have willed it to happen.

There's plenty of grey for her to dabble in that doesn't involve mind control, like her libido, for example. We've been told Faith doesn't think much about her sexual behavior, because it doesn't factor into how she views herself as a person. She's shown she's not above abusing her presidential powers, like using the hot springs after hours to seduce a classmate.
dex drako wrote:
Gotoh wrote:Since you've linked to that strip, I want you to take a look a what she said in that panel.

Here's what she said: "Inhibitions don't exist in dreams, Melissa... nothing's forced. We can be honest here."

Here's how you're interpreting it: "I turned your inhibitions off so you can't say "no" to me."

See the difference?
yes because faiths words can't be a rationalization of the facts.

our inhibitions do not keeping us from our true seleves they are our true selves.
Wanna bet?

Think about the things you might've said, or might've done, if you thought you could get away with it. Assuming you didn't have to worry about what other people might think if they saw you. How many times have you wanted to do something, but things like fear, or embarrassment, kept you from acting on it? You've never had a thought like that cross your mind? Not even once? Be honest. :-\

Faith told Melissa she didn't have any of that to worry about while they were in that shared dream. Yet, there Mel getting ready to kiss girl-Kade in the park. Consciously, she was worried someone might see her but, on the indside, she was raring to go. That's why Faith snarked on her when she saw it, 'cuz the irony made it too good to pass up.
dex drako wrote:thank you for proving my point that Faith cares so litte for Tiff's feelings and boundaries.
How so?

The point I made was, Faith prioritized by deciding it was more important to prevent a possible infection, than it was to respect Tiff's boundaries. And, if you noticed, Tiffany didn't complain much either. She understood Faith's reasons for doing what she did.
dex drako wrote:
Gotoh wrote:Show me a single one of those girls boo-hooing afterwards, claiming Faith's used them, or taken advantage of them.
well seeing they were all under some form of mind controlled it's not amazing they would I expect that to happen to some small degree at least after this fight is all said and done.
That's assuming Cerise is telling the truth.

Varanus
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Varanus »

Gotta say dex drako that your arguments would be more credible if you didn't resort to extremes and to name-calling. While some readers obviously have very different interpretations I see Faith as a girl who lacks some much needed humility regarding her abilities and status and routinely does things that are morally gray at the very least, but at the same time does not see herself as doing anything wrong, has her own sense of ethics, and is a character the writers clearly don't intend to portray as evil.

dex drako
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by dex drako »

when did I call anyone names?

the when I said "Mindcontroling B*itch" I was throwing Gotoh's own words back at him or her since I don't know.
gotoh wrote:
dex drako wrote:
the_Bear wrote:Some people just seem to try to see everything Faith does in a worst light possible. She has plenty of her own character faults, no need to invent them.
and it can be said there are some people who just seem to try to see everything Faith does in the best light poissble as well.
Or, maybe those people accept she's morally grey, but don't necessarily think she's the evil mind-controlling b*tch, like those who try to villainize, her think she is.
outside of that I have never treated anyone on this forum without respect and if I haven't please show me so I can make amends otherwise you're made at me for Gotoh's words not mine.

Quote removed. The DAMNed

Gotoh
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Gotoh »

dex drako wrote:when did I call anyone names?

the when I said "Mindcontroling B*itch" I was throwing Gotoh's own words back at him or her since I don't know.
I'm a guy.
dex drako wrote:
Gotoh wrote:Or, maybe those people accept she's morally grey, but don't necessarily think she's the evil mind-controlling b*tch, like those who try to villainize, her think she is.
outside of that I have never treated anyone on this forum without respect and if I haven't please show me so I can make amends otherwise you're made at me for Gotoh's words not mine.
I doubt Varanus is upset with you, at least, I don't think (s)he is.

Anyhoo, yes, I did say that. I even used it again in my preceding post though I made it point to say I was kidding. Though it honestly does seem that's how her detractors think of her, at times.

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Lokitsu
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Lokitsu »

Let's put the "dream sequence"/mind-rape in some real-world perspective.

For example:

Let's say I send an unsolicited PM to one of the forum members (doesn't matter who). In it, I describe a romantic scenario between the person and myself which finishes with an erotic sexual encounter. I describe in detail, not only my actions, but the responses of the forumite. The story isn't violent but it is extremely sexual and asserts that it echos the private feelings of the forum member. It's only words, no pictures and of course, the reader can close the message at any time.

What do you think the person's reaction will be? And what do you think Don would do to me if said forumite shows him the message?

Now go back and read that strip again then tell me that "It was only a dream and didn't harm anyone"

I'd hire you to write scripts for my porn empire, of course. The DAMNed

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TBeholder
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by TBeholder »

the_Bear wrote: Since Tiffany acknowledged Faith's explanation regarding risk of blood infection, there is no reason for readers to doubt that Artemis hunters are very wary of anything monster related to the point of paranoia.
Non sequitur with "conclusion" contrary to the facts obvious both in- and out- of 'verse. Ignorance doesn't somehow automatically translate into caution. As shown in the scene with Faith vs. Layla.
The Nick wrote:
TBeholder wrote:Yes, but rendering the asked party incapable of giving an answer more coherent than "wha?.." or "durrr...." before asking the question makes it, at best, rhetorical.
You're acting like she slipped a date-rape drug into her drink or bashed her on the head to the point of concussion to render her incapable of saying no.
I'm not acting like anything. I'm plainly stating that it's exactly what she did, in a telepathic equivalent.
The Nick wrote:Sometimes, when people are nervous in front of girls they like, they stutter.
...and so on and on. I don't see any point to argue this point further as long as you're still imitating Gotoh's habit of burying any inconvenient questions in mostly-irrelevant verbal mazes. Have fun training Fluffy for demagogy resistance, however. :)
Passing Through wrote: a) They're actually finished with the whole 'learning' thing to the point that they regurgitate what they themselves have learned onto others. As for how they'd know... b) I would rather imagine that they have a strict 'no raping in the classroom' policy. Most schools do.
a) Any parrot does that.
b) Magic may be more externally observable than direct mind-to-mind contact. E.g. it was obvious that Faith does something to Melissa, but how would they tell if it's legitimate sparring or she uses telepathy as a date rape drug? As long as the receiving side either succumbs and becomes a happy little love slave like those two girls, doesn't want to tell for some or other reason or has a memory lapse, there's no reason to start any investigation - and we don't even know for sure they would bother if anyone complained.
And if a part of Faith's "perks" come from a magical contract like Melisa's "gimme power!" in that very scene they only managed to notice the event without pinpointing or attributing it. After that, they couldn't tell what's going on any more than they take into account that "Oh, this Melissa -the-transferred-witch got a cool wand now".
Also, "most schools" train sheeple, not wardogs. And as such neither have constant sparring with open attempts at brawling when students don't have enough of it, nor teach that random killing is a fun pastime. So? Everything we knew about AA is wrong now? =))
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Varanus
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Varanus »

dex drako wrote: the when I said "Mindcontroling B*itch" I was throwing Gotoh's own words back at him or her since I don't know.
No anger, I just thought including those words made your argument weaker, I didn't realize the intent was to repeat Gotoh's words and make a point via that.

Gotoh
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Gotoh »

Lokitsu wrote:Let's put the "dream sequence"/mind-rape in some real-world perspective.

For example:

Let's say I send an unsolicited PM to one of the forum members (doesn't matter who). In it, I describe a romantic scenario between the person and myself which finishes with an erotic sexual encounter. I describe in detail, not only my actions, but the responses of the forumite. The story isn't violent but it is extremely sexual and asserts that it echos the private feelings of the forum member. It's only words, no pictures and of course, the reader can close the message at any time.

What do you think the person's reaction will be? And what do you think Don would do to me if said forumite shows him the message?

Now go back and read that strip again then tell me that "It was only a dream and didn't harm anyone"
'k, let's go with this scenario then.

What you're doing, here (the bolded portion of your post), is embellishing on what actually happened. Faith wasn't being lewd and explicit about all the things she'd do to Mel, if she consented. In a nutshell, her PM would be more along the lines of (paraphrasing):


To: Melissa
Subject: Let's Not Fight ♥

"Hey, Mel."

"I know we're in the middle of a combat exam and all, but why waste time fighting when we can get to know each other better? I even got this private chatroom setup just for the two of us, where we don't have to worry about what other people might think, or those pesky Mods. So we can say what we want and, who knows..? Maybe you and me might end up havin' a thing."

"That wouldn't be so bad, right? All you gotta do is say the word and-"


*system hacked, unregistered user ID detected*

"WHEN ARE YOU GONNA SAVE MY CAAAAATT?!" -F.O.G

*connection lost, user Abbot auto-logged off*


Faith: (stares at laptop) ". . . . .what just happened?" :-\


So what Faith would have done was use a private chatroom (the shared dream), rather than the forums, and she wouldn't have gone much further than making a suggestion. I don't see where Don would much of a problem with that since, by forum rules, Faith would have done nothing wrong.

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mikbuster
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by mikbuster »

Umm... it would be more like trapping Mel's mind in this chat room so that she had no choice but to be there and then lots of talking.
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Ophidiophile »

Gotoh wrote:I doubt Artemis Academy has beds on campus, and it hasn't been said whether there's a dorm there. So it'd seem, to me, she was either at Faith's place, or Faith was at hers. Also, if Faith's powers allegedly sync with the school's to influence the girls into wanting her, then it'd follow that her influence would only be a factor while they were on campus.

So what about the ones she's been shaggin' off campus? Wouldn't her influence be broken then, if that were the case? And how would you explain Ash, when she was bangin' him in the park, not on school grounds.
No, it wouldn't follow that her influence only works on campus. For one thing, that wouldn't really give Faith what she wanted. Secondly, we have seen plenty of examples of mental influence in this comic that continue long after the source is no longer present.

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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Gotoh »

mikbuster wrote:Umm... it would be more like trapping Mel's mind in this chat room so that she had no choice but to be there and then lots of talking.
Or this.

Of course, then you'd have to define "trapping" since Melissa was neither trying to escape, nor did she say she wanted out. In fact, she liked what she saw.
Ophidiophile wrote:No it wouldn't follow that her influence only works on campus. For one thing, that wouldn't give Faith what she wanted.
How so? 'cuz Faith was getting plenty of what she wanted off campus; including bangin' her boyfriend in the park, and the girl we saw her in bed with when she mind sext'd Tiffany.

Also, considering her powers allegedly sync'd with the school, to make all the girls love her, logically, the effect should have been broken whenever they were off campus. Sorta like losing a wi-fi connection once you're out of range.
Ophidiophile wrote:Secondly, we have seen plenty of examples of mental influence in this comic that continue long after the source is no longer present.
Aside from Hecate possessing Svletvana and Veronique, I can't recall any other such instances. In her case, she was never present to begin with, she willed it to happen from where she was. And since she's a goddess, whereas Faith's a mortal, I think we can agree Hecate's power vastly outstrips hers.

So what're the other examples?
Last edited by Gotoh on Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Fluffy
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by Fluffy »

A question that just occurred to me (and if it's already been asked, forgive the repeat question) - does this mean that all the bisexual/gay girls at this school may never have been bisexual/gay to begin with; they just became that way due to Faith's psychic connection to the school and (consciously or not) turning it into her own image so she'd be loved by all who caught her fancy? (because, if you find yourself attracted to one of your female classmates, and there's nothing wrong with it, where's the harm in pursuing something with another female classmate? And really, though it isn't surprising to have bisexuals/homosexuals in a school, does it make sense that there would be that great a number in a single school - all girls school, or not?)

Now that she's been cut off from the school's power - it should be interesting to see how the student body is going to react to each other, let alone Faith, if the above actually occurred thanks to Faith influence. ( and if the psychic influence is so powerful that it does, in fact, affect the girls outside of the school grounds, I've seriously got to wonder how Amelia is going to act around TIffany now that the juice has been severed).
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dex drako
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Re: Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

Post by dex drako »

my guess Fluffy is for faith at least is she's going to lose everyone but Sandi who was the only person only to ever truely love her in the first place not that faith seems to care. Faith will have to hit rock bottom to find out what true love and friendship really is. as for the other students that is an interesting question and I could be a lot of brakeups over for no other reason then you couldn't be sure right.

@Gotoh
just stop trying to make Mel some happy participant in faith's little fantasy she was not, it was an unwanted sexual advance that took an outside force to stop it. at best what faith did was a form of sexual harassment at worst it was violation of Mel far greater then any physical rape could be. but either way you look at it it's a clear case of Faith abusing her power to get her own way. you asked why people thing she's more evil then good I say it's because they've read the comic.

Faith is a arrogant self centered jerk that treats people like playthings, forsakes her responsibilities and acts she's gods gift to mankind and can do no wrong. yes there is good in her but most of her action are over shadowed by these flaws which makes it hard to see most of the time. you like her and thats great but everything I've said is true no matter how much you tryto fight it.

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