Magick Chicks 20-09-13 Even her enemies

[TBeholder]

If "12 year-old giving a Valentine's Day heart" being used as an analogy for trapping and locking someone away, stunning, stripping naked and groping is still not enough to make you drop the arguing about this as hopeless, nothing will.

[mikbuster]

Oh for F's sake lock this so it starts moving down the thread list. Christ people - get a f'n room.

This is pretty much a room ;) but I need some time to myself, so all y'all feel free to continue ;)

[Fluffy]

Which part of the phrase is incorrect, the unwanted, the sexual, or the touching?

Possibly all three.

-It wasn't unwanted, for reasons I've mentioned above. If it WAS unwanted (and I REALLY don't want to have to explain this), you generally don't play along and act the part and play a convincing angle but then cry 'rape' afterwards. Either way, Melissa is definitely willing to do something. Again, refer to the above quotes.

-It wasn't necessarily sexual in the way some people are using it, i.e. full penetration or whatever hard-core imaginings people want to imagine. I mean, there's an element of 'sexual' to it, but you can say the same thing about a 12 year-old giving a Valentine's Day heart to a girl; there's an 'element' of sexual but we're hardly expecting the children of to be fornicating between recess and fifth period snack time.

- it depends who is in charge of the dream. If Melissa was in charge of her own dream (which is questionable, given the complete 180 to her personality) then there's no argument. If Faith is in control of the dream (more likely, given her mental abilities and the fact she's shifting the dream into what she wants it to look like), then you can't claim Melissa was doing anything willingly (especially if she saw it as only a dream and not part of the actual combat).

Exactly how right would this be if Faith consciously knew what she was doing (trying to seduce Melissa in her dream) while Melissa only saw it as a dream (if she remembers any of it at all?)

- sexual touching does not have to include penetration. Faith was naked and was embracing/caressing a naked Melissa. Seems pretty sexual to me. And comparing Faith's actions to a kid giving a friend a holiday greeting card? Really? :/

[Gotoh]

- it depends who is in charge of the dream. If Melissa was in charge of her own dream (which is questionable, given the complete 180 to her personality) then there's no argument. If Faith is in control of the dream (more likely, given her mental abilities and the fact she's shifting the dream into what she wants it to look like), then you can't claim Melissa was doing anything willingly (especially if she saw it as only a dream and not part of the actual combat).

They both were. TCampbell said it was a shared dream, not Faith's dream. Even ignoring that, you'll notice Faith repeatedly used the word "we", not "I", when describing the experince.

"We have all the time in the world here."

"We can be honest here."

Exactly how right would this be if Faith consciously knew what she was doing (trying to seduce Melissa in her dream) while Melissa only saw it as a dream (if she remembers any of it at all?)

At the very least, Melissa remembers being in the dream with Faith and that it was 'fade-out' girl who helped her escape it (3rd panel, here).

- sexual touching does not have to include penetration. Faith was naked and was embracing/caressing a naked Melissa. Seems pretty sexual to me. And comparing Faith's actions to a kid giving a friend a holiday greeting card? Really? :/

Faith kept her hands on Melissa's shoulders, she never went further than that.

[Fluffy]

Never said it wasn't a shared dream, but the fact that Faith was clearly in charge (evidence by adjusting the surroundings) is undeniable (not to mention that third panel you pointed out. It shows that Melissa needed help to break Faith's hold in the dream. If Melissa had any control of this shared dream, why would she need help getting out of it?)

And, again, sexual touching does not have to involve penetration (or even hands having to travel south for things to be sexual in nature). Faith stroking Melissa's lips and later cuddled up and stroking her shoulders while the pair sat naked in a spring is still sexual in nature (ever hear of foreplay?)

[David Johnston]

How did Faith get Mel into the water? Probably by suggesting that they could take a dip together.

I mean, really. Comics and such have to leave out details that aren't particularly relevant or important (unless they're doing fillers, which this wasn't, and even then the details have to be important to the filler plot), meaning that if a scene (like two girls getting undressed) is left out, then it didn't have any real relevance to the plot, unless it's retroactively given importance later on within the comic. Which this hasn't been.

So posing questions like, "isn't it highly uncharacteristic of Mel to undress herself in the dream" and "would it make what Faith did worse if she mentally undressed Melissa and got her in the water", are only speculative. The fact of the matter is that if the 'undressing' scene had been important, it would have been part of the comic. Since it wasn't part of the comic, it's not reasonable to give it any real importance.

That may be true but at the same it is important that Melissa never acted before or since in the way she acted in the hallucination up until her magical girl destiny intervened and let her break free. If that isn't coercion using psychic powers, then I think it's open to question whether anyone at the school has any psychic powers.

[Gotoh]

Never said it wasn't a shared dream, but the fact that Faith was clearly in charge (evidence by adjusting the surroundings) is undeniable (that third panel shows that Melissa needed help to break Faith's hold in the dream. If Melissa had any control of this shared dream, why would she need help?)

Help with what? Show me a single panel where Melissa was trying to escape, or said she wanted out. From her own mouth, she said the dreamscape was beautiful, and not once did she say Faith's advances weren't welcomed while they were there.

Now, consciously, we know she wouldn't have let Faith get that close; let alone, get naked with her. But is that because that's how she truly feels, or is that her inhibitions dictating her actions? Think back to when she was about to kiss girl-Kade in the park. On the outside, she was worried about being seen kissing another girl. But, on the inside, she was all for it so long as Kade would be a guy later. So clearly, what Melissa says isn't always what she's really thinking (further evidenced by the truth massage).

So we're clear: I'm not suggesting she secretly wants to jump Faith's bones, or anything. Just that her contempt towards her may be in fact, be her envy taking, like Faith said.

And, again, sexual touching does not have to involve penetration (or even hands having to travel south for things to be sexual in nature). Faith stroking Melissa's lips and later cuddled up and stroking her shoulders while the pair sat naked in a spring is still sexual in nature (ever hear of foreplay?)

Yes, I'm familiar with foreplay, but cuddling is not the same as groping. Faith only went as far as getting naked and cuddling with her in the spring. I agree that's sexual contact, but tbh, that's not even a skinship grope. They may as well been still wearing towels.

[Fluffy]

It's pointed out that in the dream, inhibitions were lowered. Which means, the guards that are normally in place are down, making the person with lowered inhibitions more susceptible to suggestions.

By TCampbell's own words, we know that Faith is not against giving girls a mental caress in order to sway them in her favor (not to mention the high probability that Faith used the school's powers to turn the majority of the female populace into her adoring fans/lovers).

With her inhibitions down, Melissa was incapable of fighting off Faith's mental stroking, seeming to be dazed and unable to get full sentence out after Faith approached her/started stroking her lips. For someone who is normally vocal against Faith's advances on her, if Melissa had anywhere near as much control over the dream as Faith apparently had, you'd think she'd have protested more.

What else was going on in that moment if not Faith taking advantage of Melissa's lowered inhibitions and making the attempt at seducing one of the few girls who challenge her?

In that third panel, Melissa's asking Fade Out girl if she had helped her when Faith was in her mind. What did that supposed rogue memory of Fade Out girl do? She woke Melissa up from the dream before things went too far.

So, please - enlighten me and answer the question. If Melissa had control of the dream under any circumstance, why did she need Fade Out girl's help in severing Faith's mental link?

[Gotoh]

Melissa was also incapable of getting a full sentence out after Faith approached her and started stroking her lips. For someone who is normally vocal against Faith's advances on her, if Melissa had anywhere near as much contorl over the dream as Faith apparently did, you'd think she'd protest more in the dream.

By TCampbell's own words, we know that Faith is not against giving girls a mental caress in order to sway them in her favor (not to mention the high probability that Faith used the school's powers to turn the majority of the female populace into her adoring fans/lovers). What else is that moment if not an attempt at seducing one of the few girls who challenge her?

Sure, she could that and, in some cases, she may even be willing to, but she leaves the decision to either refuse, or accept, up to them. Notice, she didn't tell Melissa, "When you wake up, you'll want me like everyone else does."

Instead, she asked, "Is it possible (leaving the choice to Melissa) for you to say you love me?"

And you're still ignoring the possibility that Cerise could be lying in order to make the others lose faith in Faith, as someone put it.

IN that third panel, Melissa's asking Fade Out girl if she had helped her when Faith was in her mind. What did that supposed rogue memory of Fade Out girl do? She woke Melissa up from the dream before things went too far.

Who's to say things would have gone any further if she hadn't? It's just as likely that Faith would have let her go had Melissa said so "no" and wanted out.

So, please - enlighten me and answer the question. If Melissa had control of the dream under any circumstance, why did she need Fade Out girl's help in severing Faith's mental link?

There's no way I can answer that, because we neither know what fade-out girl's motivation was for doing it, or what her intentions towards Melissa are in general. The girl's a question mark.

As far as Kade is concerned, exactly what argument are you trying to present here?

That what Melissa says, doesn't always reflect what she's actually thinking/feeling on the inside. If go back over my previous post, you'll see I clarified that point. Just as during the truth massage when she admitted she no longer cared about competing with Faith, yet remained admant that she did, before running off.

Melissa may not be sexually attracted to Faith, but there is something about that she found appealing while her inhibition were shed.

[Fluffy]

I am not ignoring the fact that Cerise could be lying, I just think the probability that she is is minimal.

If what she said is true and Faith had been using the school's powers (consciously or not) to make the student body into her adoring fans/lovers - the whole 'she leaves the choice up to them' becomes a moot point; as the ability to say 'no' to the enhanced power influencing them to say 'yes' becomes less of a possibility. As Tiffany had asked herself when Faith was mentioning being unable to help being popular - how much of Faith popularity was based off of her mind juice and how much was genuine?

Throw in the fact that they were in a dream and Melissa's inhibitions were down - do you really think she had the ability to say no to Faith if what Cerise claims is true?

[Gotoh]

I am not ignoring the fact that Cerise could be lying, I just think the probability that she is is minimal.

If what she said is true and Faith had been using the school's powers (consciously or not) to make the student body into he adoring fans/lovers - the whole 'she leaves the choice up to them' becomes a moot point; as the ability to say 'no' to the enhanced power influencing you to say 'yes' becomes less of a possibility. As Tiffany had asked herself - how much of Faith popularity was based off of her mind juice and how much was genuine?

Which is why I'm having a hard time believing what Cerise is saying.

And Tiffany, by her own admission, is hardly an authority on Faith's powers. Plus, her reasoning is more like a leap of logic, hinging solely on the fact that Faith is an esper.

Throw in the fact that they were in a dream and Melissa's inhibitions were down - do you really think she had the ability to say no to Faith if what Cerise claims is true?

There's no way to really answer that either, since 'fade-out' girl intervened before Melissa could answer the question.

For Cerise to be telling the truth, it'd mean she has a greater understanding of Faith's ability than Faith does and, tbh, I have a hard time accepting that. Cerise is not an esper, nor does she have any prior knowledge, or experience, with esper abilities. She's a witch. I wouldn't expect her to gain instant insight into how Faith's powers work simply from being in Faith's subconscious, any more than Ginyu did when he hijacked Goku's body (yet had no clue how to utilize Goku's power).

[David Johnston]

I am not ignoring the fact that Cerise could be lying, I just think the probability that she is is minimal.

If what she said is true and Faith had been using the school's powers (consciously or not) to make the student body into he adoring fans/lovers - the whole 'she leaves the choice up to them' becomes a moot point; as the ability to say 'no' to the enhanced power influencing you to say 'yes' becomes less of a possibility. As Tiffany had asked herself - how much of Faith popularity was based off of her mind juice and how much was genuine?

Which is why I'm having a hard time believing what Cerise is saying.

wait...what is the reason why you're having a hard time believing what Cerise is saying?

For Cerise to be telling the truth, it'd mean she has a greater understanding of Faith's ability than Faith does and, tbh, I have a hard time accepting that. Cerise is not an esper, nor does she have any prior knowledge, or experience, with esper abilities.

Which you know, is kind of irrelevant. Of the two of them which of Faith and the newly empowered Cerise is more likely to better understand the genius locus of the school?

[dex drako]

The reason I believe Cerise is telling the truth is because her lying adds nothing to her plans nor, more importantly, the plot as a whole.

Cerise gave us this information through a villainess monologue where Cerise explaining she's going to knowingly use the same plot device to gain power. Addressed to people she was planning to get rid of with whatever this magic circle does so she has no reason to lie to them and more importantly the author has no reason to lie to us. The same is true for Tiff's observation, at that point she wasn't just some real person with a wild theory she was a mouth piece of the author foreshadowing what's to come.

At this point it turning out to be a lie would raise real problems for the plot (like cerise being no threat) and the only advantage it would have is to make faith look better.

Also your main point to criticism seems to come from this belief that no one can know faith better then herself in anyway. I mean it's not like Tiff and Cerise are saying they know everything about faith just that they can see one thing Faith couldn't. But even the thought that they could see something Faith herself knew on some level even if she couldn't admit it to herself repulses you.

There's no way to really answer that either, since 'fade-out' girl intervened before Melissa could answer the question.

Well let’s look at setup for the scene to try and make it a little more clear.

This was an attack on Mel by faith in a combat test, the rules of which where the fight stopped with a knockout. it's just simple logic that an attack would be useless if it didn't give the attacker an advantage over the attacked and this is clearly shown by Faith own statements and control she had. In fact faith told us the scales were tilted so far in her favor that random little girls with cats shouldn’t have been enough to break Mel out of her daze. We can also rule out any shared "dream" because the whole event had to happen in the time it took them to drop to the ground otherwise the fight would have ended in a double knockout.

From the set up or Faith own words I don’t understand how anyone could believe to Mel had any control over what was happening. On top of this that at this point Mel had only known Faith for a few hours at most ( it was their first time in this class) in which Faith had publicly humiliated, assaulted and sexually harassed her leaves me unable to believe Mel could have any feelings of interest in Faith at all.

[Fluffy]

I am not ignoring the fact that Cerise could be lying, I just think the probability that she is is minimal.

If what she said is true and Faith had been using the school's powers (consciously or not) to make the student body into he adoring fans/lovers - the whole 'she leaves the choice up to them' becomes a moot point; as the ability to say 'no' to the enhanced power influencing you to say 'yes' becomes less of a possibility. As Tiffany had asked herself - how much of Faith popularity was based off of her mind juice and how much was genuine?

Which is why I'm having a hard time believing what Cerise is saying.

wait...what is the reason why you're having a hard time believing what Cerise is saying?

Because it has been established that Cerise is capable of lying/manipulating in order to get what she wants, some folks believe that she's lying about Faith using the school's power in order to turn the student body into her own little harem so as to cause the student body to lose faith in Faith - bettering Cerise's chance in becoming top dog of the school (never mind that it doesn't make sense that she would lie about one thing and be honest about something else).

[Crystafent82]

Ever heard of blinkered attitude to one's work?
That concept even works for one's self. The little things we don't see and/or don't want to see.
So far Faith has been unable to grasp details or people's presence several times.
As Ash agreed she's been to self centered, which is not the same as self aware.