Magick Chicks 10-05-13 One of your friends

[TBeholder]

I suspect, exactly this: that when they played dress-up, Skye seemed to enjoy it too...

[renmei]

I hate predestination paradoxes.

The best part is watching how it unfolds.

My speculation is that the wand was meant to counter Cerise, who as the "corrupter" exists outside of time/space. So the wand was created to counter something which happened because the wand existed. There's your paradox. Prevent the wand from existing in the first place, and none of this would have happened. Possibly. What would have happened in a timeline without the wand might be better, or much worse. It's possible the wand needs to exist because the events would have happened in a similar fashion anyway, so it is better to have the wand to counter the event than to not have it and be doomed by who/whatever becomes the corrupter.

With the way Hekate reacts, it sometimes feels like she always knew what was going to happen and merely played a role in seeing it through as it was intended to be. She could have not given Cerise the vial, but the wand still exists, and she can't get rid of that, and it is a threat to her own plans, so the only option seems to be that she lets events unfold as they were meant to and hopefully nudge them in her favor. I think she knew exactly what would happen with the vial if Cerise had it, and chose her to be her agent even if it meant Cerise would turn all creepy for a bit. She couldn't keep the wand from Melissa, so this is plan b. Means to an end, even if there's some empathy in there somewhere.

Temporal mechanics can be a headache.

[Gotoh]

She could have not given Cerise the vial, but the wand still exists, and she can't get rid of that, and it is a threat to her own plans, so the only option seems to be that she lets events unfold as they were meant to and hopefully nudge them in her favor. I think she knew exactly what would happen with the vial if Cerise had it, and chose her to be her agent even if it meant Cerise would turn all creepy for a bit.

Interesting theory but, if that were the case, why was Hecate so surprised when Cerise did it? It didn't look like she was faking it. More to the point, Hecate specifically said that the vial was meant for Melissa, not Cerise, because she knew Cerise wouldn't be able to handle it on her own. And she was surprised again, when Skye showed up.

I think it's safe to say Hecate hadn't foreseen or anticipated either event.

[renmei]

True, but that surprise fades quickly. The next few pages show her with a bored expression, and she doesn't seem concerned about Cerise's impending death at all. Of course, then Skye shows up, but we don't know her expression after that.

I'm just speculating that she's playing a part, like an actor. She's obviously ridiculously powerful, but that doesn't mean she's all knowledgeable, but at the same time she probably has a pretty solid idea of what is going on and has plans to counter it. Hence my speculation that she knew exactly what she was doing when she gave Cerise the vial, at a moment when Cerise was emotionally weak and full of negative emotions toward Melissa. Either she's truly clueless about her own coven, or she knew about the rift between Cerise and Melissa and chose to exploit it to get rid of the wand. To put it another way, the chain of events feels, to me, too convenient. Since it's a time paradox, I believe this is what the writing intended the audience to feel, and is intentionally showing us a cause and effect by peeling away the various viewpoints to show the larger picture of what is truly going on.

I could be wrong, of course. I'm just speculating. When it comes to paradoxes, it's hard to keep all this straight in your head.

Quote removed. The DAMNed

[jaimehlers]

I see three differences possibly changing the proximity effect. At the pool party arc the wand was in someone's hands; it was freshly tampered with; in the minions attack arc, Melissa was polymorphed until she got the wand. Or it happened only the first time the wand approached conscious Melissa, and that's it.

None of which are convincing reasons; speculation is like that.

It's not destructive, it's disruptive.

Which doesn't matter. The only one it's 'disrupted' is Melissa, and frankly I see that

Also, it did propose the sword at first, though didn't insist.

Which also doesn't matter. I would think that if it was intended to be destructive, it would have insisted a bit more on a sword or weapon.

And what "good deeds"? We don't know it. The only thing that could clearly qualify was saving Ash - but this being Ash... it could rather be out of courtesy to his own patron, or because he is(?) Faith's boyfriend, or just for lulz of creating more of a mess, etc.

Rescuing the cat out of the tree. Doesn't matter that it was 'her' cat - it counts as a good deed. Oh, and also stopping Ash and Dio from getting in a fight. I imagine there will be more.

You misread that part of Fluffy's post. She said something good might react negatively to something evil that means it destruction. She wasn't saying that the wand means Melissa destruction.

Actually, I didn't misread it at all. Fluffy's statement was pretty clear - good (or evil) might react negatively to evil (or good) that means it harm/destruction. If she had meant that they just might react badly to each other, why include the "means it harm/destruction" clause? My counter-point was that the wand obviously doesn't intend harm to Melissa - and presumably, by extension, other cryptids (such as Dio and Brooke).

The point she was making was that malignant and benevolent forces can sometimes react strongly to one another. If something that's inherently evil is in the presence of something holy, it may cause them to react in any number of ways; from revealing the evil one's true form (if they were using an illusion to hide their identity, for example), or it may cause them to shrink away from the holy person/object's presence, in fear.

The inverse, of course, would be someone pure reacting negatively to something evil. Again, the effect can be a relatively simple one, or an extreme reaction (fainting, anxiety, etc.), depending on the work and the in-universe guidelines of how the two forces play off of one another.

Granted, that's possible. But if that's all it is, what's the point in hyping it up so much? I mean, if we're just talking about things with opposite natures reacting strongly to each other...well, duh? I would like to think that the authors had this planned better than that.

What we know is this: we've been told Mel has cursed blood, and she's b*tch, even by teen standards. We also saw that the wand and 'fade out girl'* was giving her nightmares before she came into contact with either one. Just as we saw the effect it had on her at the pool party. That would seem to fit with what Fluffy's suggesting (i.e. something dark reacting negatively to something good).

Melissa described it as a nightmare, but I think that's purely relative. Remember how she overreacted to developing actual muscle tone? She didn't like the idea of being something other than a selfish, egotistical teenage witch, and her reaction to the nightmare fits that better.

[Gotoh]

The point she was making was that malignant and benevolent forces can sometimes react strongly to one another.

Granted, that's possible. But if that's all it is, what's the point in hyping it up so much? I mean, if we're just talking about things with opposite natures reacting strongly to each other...well, duh? I would like to think that the authors had this planned better than that.

We've seen Melissa react strongly to the wand, back in the beginning of the comic, and we've been told that Hecate's power can counteract the wand's influence. Which we may have already glimpsed, when she shrank Melissa (which may have prevented the wand from effecting her, at the school). So that's three possible chekohv's guns right there. Meaning, they would have planned this well in advance.

What we know is this: we've been told Mel has cursed blood, and she's b*tch, even by teen standards. We also saw that the wand and 'fade out girl'* was giving her nightmares before she came into contact with either one. Just as we saw the effect it had on her at the pool party. That would seem to fit with what Fluffy's suggesting (i.e. something dark reacting negatively to something good).

Melissa described it as a nightmare, but I think that's purely relative. Remember how she overreacted to developing actual muscle tone? She didn't like the idea of being something other than a selfish, egotistical teenage witch, and her reaction to the nightmare fits that better.

Melissa disagrees.

She may not know what 'fade-out girl' wants with her, but Mel knew she was the one behind her recurring nightmares somehow, she remembered she had helped her against Faith, and realized 'fade-out girl' was haunting her (for whatever reason). The last time she saw her, Mel confronted her and wanted answers.

[jaimehlers]

We've seen Melissa react strongly to the wand, back in the beginning of the comic, and we've been told that Hecate's power can counteract the wand's influence. Which we may have already glimpsed, when she shrank Melissa (which may have prevented the wand from effecting her, at the school). So that's three possible chekohv's guns right there. Meaning, they would have planned this well in advance.

Did she react to the wand, or did she react to the cat girl? Because as far as I know, the wand never appeared in the comic at all until it actually did.

The problem with Chekhov's Gun is that it's entirely possible that it isn't a Chekhov's Gun. And that's really the reason I'm objecting to this sudden "aha, Melissa's cursed blood was reacting to the wand, ala, "Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!" " idea. To put it simply, we haven't seen any other cryptids react badly to the presence of the wand, or frankly react to it at all. If it's just a matter of the reaction of cursed blood, then shouldn't we have seen this happen elsewhere?

I have a different theory regarding the wand, anyway. Remember how Hecate just got done saying that Cerise would need a battery to hold the extra power that would otherwise kill her? Well, considering the influx of power that Melissa got from the school, it wouldn't surprise me at all if that's what the wand was for in the first place - to serve as a receptacle for the extra power that Melissa couldn't handle on her own. But it got separated from her before the process was complete, by Faith - who, as you will remember, was originally represented as the Big Bad of the comic, who had a coterie of followers, girls who practically idolized her, and who has been shown using her esper powers to affect the minds of those who don't trust her. That's a kind of corruption.

This is supported by the fact that the cat girl popped into Melissa's mind while Faith was there and shocked Melissa out of the rapport. A blatantly non-coincidental event, exactly when she needed it. Then, later, we have Faith and Sandy working to try to figure out the wand, and Melissa immediately goes into a trance and makes a proclamation in some weird tongue, warning of "the corruptor" and a nearby agent, as Faith was approaching her and Sandy was standing nearby, observing. So what happens the third time? Nothing, because Faith had already been taken out by Hecate's possessed minions, thus no need for a warning or protection.

It's certainly no more far-fetched than the idea of Cerise being the corruptor, or the cat girl being the corruptor.

Melissa disagrees.

She may not know what 'fade-out girl' wants with her, but Mel knew she was the one behind her recurring nightmares somehow, she remembered she had helped her against Faith, and realized fade-out girl was haunting her (for whatever reason). The last time she saw her, Mel confronted her and wanted answers.

Yes, because it was obvious by then that the recurring cat girl episodes weren't coincidental. Naturally, if you have something that keeps sending you dreams, pops in to help you, and somehow also appears in the real world, you're going to wonder just what they're up to. It doesn't have to be an "evil reacts to good" type of thing, either. There are plenty of reasons why someone might have a bad reaction to that without requiring the explanation of "cursed blood reacts badly".

[Gotoh]

Did she react to the wand, or did she react to the cat girl? Because as far as I know, the wand never appeared in the comic at all until it actually did.

The wand can change form at will. It may have taken the form of the feather duster we saw her with, in the beginning. I'm not saying that it's definite; only that it's possible.

The problem with Chekhov's Gun is that it's entirely possible that it isn't a Chekhov's Gun. And that's really the reason I'm objecting to this sudden "aha, Melissa's cursed blood was reacting to the wand, ala, "Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!" " idea. To put it simply, we haven't seen any other cryptids react badly to the presence of the wand, or frankly react to it at all. If it's just a matter of the reaction of cursed blood, then shouldn't we have seen this happen elsewhere?

Because Fluffy's suggesting it reacted to Melissa's cursed blood specifically, rather than cryptids in general. Notice that Sveltvana and Veronique didn't react to the wand, until Melissa weaponized it against them.

I have a different theory regarding the wand, anyway. Remember how Hecate just got done saying that Cerise would need a battery to hold the extra power that would otherwise kill her? Well, considering the influx of power that Melissa got from the school, it wouldn't surprise me at all if that's what the wand was for in the first place - to serve as a receptacle for the extra power that Melissa couldn't handle on her own. But it got separated from her before the process was complete, by Faith - who, as you will remember, was originally represented as the Big Bad of the comic, who had a coterie of followers, girls who practically idolized her, and who has been shown using her esper powers to affect the minds of those who don't trust her. That's a kind of corruption.

When was this?

This is supported by the fact that the cat girl popped into Melissa's mind while Faith was there and shocked Melissa out of the rapport. A blatantly non-coincidental event, exactly when she needed it. Then, later, we have Faith and Sandy working to try to figure out the wand, and Melissa immediately goes into a trance and makes a proclamation in some weird tongue, warning of "the corruptor" and a nearby agent, as Faith was approaching her and Sandy was standing nearby, observing. So what happens the third time? Nothing, because Faith had already been taken out by Hecate's possessed minions, thus no need for a warning or protection.

Except Faith isn't a villain, nor is she corrupting anyone. TCampbell has argued against the idea of her being a villain, on more than one occasion. Further, Faith isn't corrupting anyone to do anything. All she did, while she and Mel were in that dream, was ask her a question. And she only resorted to exposing Mel to the wand after her initial investigation went nowhere.

She was an early antagonist, at best, but never truly a villainess; which was before the start of her character development.

Hecate had no idea who she was targeting. Her only concern was that no one know about the wand's existence. When she enslaved Sveltvana and Veronique, the order was to kill whoever knew about it, which happened to include Tiffany. Mel didn't need protection from her, because Tiffany thinks of Melissa as a friend. Nor did she need protection from Faith, because Faith had been beaten unconscious, while trying to proctect Melissa, as well as Sandi, Tiff, and the two girls that were hellbent on killing her, at the time.

Melissa disagrees.

She may not know what 'fade-out girl' wants with her, but Mel knew she was the one behind her recurring nightmares somehow, she remembered she had helped her against Faith, and realized fade-out girl was haunting her (for whatever reason). The last time she saw her, Mel confronted her and wanted answers.

Yes, because it was obvious by then that the recurring cat girl episodes weren't coincidental. Naturally, if you have something that keeps sending you dreams, pops in to help you, and somehow also appears in the real world, you're going to wonder just what they're up to. It doesn't have to be an "evil reacts to good" type of thing, either. There are plenty of reasons why someone might have a bad reaction to that without requiring the explanation of "cursed blood reacts badly".

I'm not saying it's the only possible explanation. I'm saying it's a plausible one given what we know, so far.

[TBeholder]

I see three differences possibly changing the proximity effect. At the pool party arc the wand was in someone's hands; it was freshly tampered with; in the minions attack arc, Melissa was polymorphed until she got the wand. Or it happened only the first time the wand approached conscious Melissa, and that's it.

None of which are convincing reasons; speculation is like that.

They make three times more than enough of difference to make other reasons not necessary, though.

It's not destructive, it's disruptive.

Which doesn't matter. The only one it's 'disrupted' is Melissa, and frankly I see that

Layla doesn't think so. Someone was out of it, and may or may not agree with it if the enchantment is removed, and as likely as not, now there's some utterly bewildered vampire inbound.

Which also doesn't matter. I would think that if it was intended to be destructive, it would have insisted a bit more on a sword or weapon.

This wouldn't exactly encourage Melissa to use this thing ever again, would it?

Rescuing the cat out of the tree. Doesn't matter that it was 'her' cat - it counts as a good deed.

It's more suckering Melissa into "no good deed goes unpunished". If it counted at all - before the nightmare it could, but at this point Melissa knew that otherwise she will have to deal with this nonsense again and again.

Oh, and also stopping Ash and Dio from getting in a fight.

Which probably amounts to saving Ash twice, while indirectly messing with Faith and Tiffany? And saving Dio too, but due to another known conditions met, we can't tell whether it's another reason or not.

I imagine there will be more.

Well, obviously. I mean, in the comic.