Dangerously Chloe 12-11-18 I Want You So Bad

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dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 12-11-18 I Want You So Bad

Post by dmra » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:08 pm

lordoffiling wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:31 pm
Can we talk about pheromones for a minute?

I’ll use a personal example to start off: There was a girl who I used to work with some years ago. She was a smoker. Normally a “so what?” fact in my brain, except, she smoked the same brand as a girl who used to tease me relentlessly in high school.

When she would walk into my office after a smoke break, it was honestly all I could do to stay in my chair. And indeed, it’s a good thing I did, because if I’d stood up she’d see quite plainly how much I enjoyed her presence. I was not myself around her at those times, not even close. I wanted her more than anyone else I’ve ever wanted in my entire life, easily. She could have asked me for the keys to my car and I’d have given them to her just to make her smile.

All because of a weird chemical association that linked her smokes to strong sexual memories in my brain.

So the question is this: Let’s say my smoking coworker decided she wanted me. I’m married, I’d ordinarily say no, but let’s say she came in smelling like that. No contest, I assure you.
As Oscar Wilde once said "I can resist anything except temptation".

Would you have reacted to the same stimulus in the same way if the smoker had been a man? If not then no matter how much arousal might have come from the association with the scent of menthol there was nothing about your experience that would have completely taken away your free will.

The point about the succubus pheromones is that nobody has been able to resist them, not even trained monster hunters who suspected what was going on. We saw here how quickly Naomi went from her mood of triumph at discovering "proof" of Teddy's secret to abandoning every single thing she cared about previously just to jump Teddy's bones. It's also beyond reason that every single one of a football team would secretly be bi-curious without something else coming in to play.

Oh and if your co-worker had known about your particular weakness and had exploited it that wouldn't be sexual assault or rape but it would mean that she was a really shitty person.

Fereshte
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 12-11-18 I Want You So Bad

Post by Fereshte » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:51 pm

Absinthe Green wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:44 am

Enough with this False-Equivalency Rape-Obsession horseshit.

Equating DC's sexual highjinx-slapstick-goofballing with Actual Sexual Assault demeans & belittles what surviors of Actual Sexual Assault have been put through. Fuck that shit in the eye with a pointed stick.

Also: interesting to note - the ones that won't STFU about "Supernatural Rape"* seem perfectly cool with the fact that the Girljock posse were out to pummel Teddi into a bloody smear. They can't stop sending the message "Sex Bad. Violence Good."

*thank you for sharing ad nauseam what turns you on, but nobody asked.
There is so much wrong with this, I don’t even know where to begin. Luckily, several other posters did a great job but I’ll add this: you get NO say in what demeans or belittles actual sexual assault survivors if you think that talking about consent is somehow wrong. Most rape and sexual assault survivors are VERY invested in the concept of consent, as this is the core of what rape is—the removal of consent. The problem with this comic (and you) is that Teddi/y doesn’t know she/he is a rapist because they don’t understand consent. David probably doesn’t understand what consent is. And you don’t understand what consent is. And THAT is why so many people are upset by this—because teaching people what consent is is the foundation of most sexual assault prevention programs and eduction.

And just because we are upset that Teddi is raping these girls doesn’t mean we condone their actions of violence. We’re just saying that using rape as a punishment is not acceptable.

lordoffiling wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:31 pm
Can we talk about pheromones for a minute?
...
So the question is this: Let’s say my smoking coworker decided she wanted me. I’m married, I’d ordinarily say no, but let’s say she came in smelling like that. No contest, I assure you. Let’s even say, for the sake of this hypothetical, that she knew in advance how that smell affected me and decided she was gonna exploit it.

Is she raping me? Seems like it, right? A chemical scent she’s exuding is affecting the chemistry of my brain, after all. And I do have a strong incentive to say no, I’m married.

I don’t think it’s rape, though. My ability to say no is not being taken away in this scenario. I’m willingly ignoring it because I want sex.

Which brings us to the comic.

In what sense are succubus pheromones different from whatever turns you on? Menthol cigarettes, in my case, but you may have your own thing.

Of course in your scenario it wouldn’t be rape because you COULD say no. We have seen NO evidence that victims of pheromones are capable of saying no, regardless of relationship status or sexual orientation. To put this in perspective, sexual orientation aside (which is a huge topic but someone above already explained it beautifully), Teddy’s father slept with his sister-in-law under the pheromones. The marriage was ruined, a sister betrayed and their relationship ruined and we have no evidence that either could say no. No one has been able to even once refuse the pheromones. By every shred of evidence we have in this comic, all arrows point to victims being unable to say no. So that clearly is rape.

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Error of Logic
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 12-11-18 I Want You So Bad

Post by Error of Logic » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:16 pm

It's nice to see there's at least some of original Teddy left in the hybrid.

dmra
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 12-11-18 I Want You So Bad

Post by dmra » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:37 pm

Fereshte wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:51 pm
The problem with this comic .... is that Teddi/y doesn’t know she/he is a rapist because they don’t understand consent. David probably doesn’t understand what consent is...... And THAT is why so many people are upset by this—because teaching people what consent is is the foundation of most sexual assault prevention programs and eduction.
I think that is unfair on Dave. Faith in the MC universe was in a similar position to Teddy - unknowingly using a magical power to seduce people - and it was always made clear that that was a bad thing for her to be doing. Tiff for one suspected it which was one reason why she adopted the Masked Avenger persona. And when it became clear to Faith that that was what she had been doing she regretted it immediately.

So Dave knows full well what consent is and why it's important.

The problem I think with this comic is there is no Tiff equivalent so nobody in the comic is saying that what he's doing is wrong. The difficulty with that is that it has been several years now and nobody outside the forums has really been calling him out on his bullshit so it appears that the author approves. Which I'm still hoping is more about style than morality and that Teddy will have his Faith style moment of realisation in due course.

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lordoffiling
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 12-11-18 I Want You So Bad

Post by lordoffiling » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:21 pm

Fereshte wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:51 pm
We have seen NO evidence that victims of pheromones are capable of saying no, regardless of relationship status or sexual orientation.
We've also seen no evidence that they can't.

Take this strip. Naomi is very clearly lucid and in control of her faculties. She's not drugged, or drunk, or loopy, or hazy, or under supernatural hypnosis or mind control. I have every reason to believe she could say no if she wanted to. She just doesn't want to.

Which was the point of my argument. Pheromones exist in nature, in real life, and they're nothing more than a biochemical signal that says to potential mating partners, "I'm available, come get it." Humans do this kind of signaling too, except we do it with tone of voice, body language, attire, cologne or perfume, and so-on.

Now obviously succubus pheromones do the job a hell of a lot better than a pair of skinny jeans, but I have yet to see anything that indicates the people being affected are being robbed of their free will.
"Rather than simply enjoying these comics, we log in to these forums to argue about them. [...] We are some strange people, and I guess we have nothing better to do." - lordoffiling

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 12-11-18 I Want You So Bad

Post by Gotoh » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:25 pm

dmra wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:37 pm
I think that is unfair on Dave. Faith in the MC universe was in a similar position to Teddy - unknowingly using a magical power to seduce people - and it was always made clear that that was a bad thing for her to be doing. Tiff for one suspected it which was one reason why she adopted the Masked Avenger persona. And when it became clear to Faith that that was what she had been doing she regretted it immediately.
There's one other key difference: TCampbell described it as a mental "suggestion," not outright control. The girls Faith hit on still had the ability to either consent, or turn her down (as we saw with Tiff, Mel, Layla, and the student council).

The same can't be said for Teddy. Once anyone gets a dose of his pheromones that's pretty much it, 'cuz the victim immediately wants sex, regardless of their sexual preferences, or even if they hated him.

Faith also understood the importance of giving proper consent, because she said she wouldn't touch anyone unless they were willing. Which the comic's editor confirmed during forum discussion of that exact same strip, when he said Faith had a code of conduct and stuck to it (for the most part).

By constrast, Teddy still slept with Daisy and her friends despite knowing they were under some form of compulsion, because he tested it on Daisy while they were in the shower. Whereas Faith was given no indication that anything was amiss, so she assumed all the action she was getting was due to her looks and her popularity.

Which is why Faith is comparable to Layla, in that neither of them had reason to question why so many people wanted them. They were hot and they knew it. Teddy wasn't and he also knew it, the jocks and cheerleaders considered him a dork.

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Fluffy
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 12-11-18 I Want You So Bad

Post by Fluffy » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:40 pm

lordoffiling wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:21 pm
Fereshte wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:51 pm
We have seen NO evidence that victims of pheromones are capable of saying no, regardless of relationship status or sexual orientation.
We've also seen no evidence that they can't.

Take this strip. Naomi is very clearly lucid and in control of her faculties.
No, she isn't.

The previous strip showed she got whammied by a healthy dose of pheromones; making her in lust with Teddy. Teddy regained his senses, but Naomi has not - probably because it wasn't conscious Teddy who whammied her. She is still very much under the control of the pheromones Teddy's demonic side whammied her with - hence why she's ignoring conscious Teddy's sudden change of heart when it comes to boning her and demanding sexy times.
Now obviously succubus pheromones do the job a hell of a lot better than a pair of skinny jeans, but I have yet to see anything that indicates the people being affected are being robbed of their free will.
What would you call the tests in the locker room, then - where Teddi figured out that, if he laid on the charm, he could make these people do whatever he wanted them to do; despite their better judgement?
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Ninjax2000
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 12-11-18 I Want You So Bad

Post by Ninjax2000 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:55 pm

Two thoughts:

1) You guys take this comic way too seriously.

2) I have to disagree that this is rape.

It all comes down to the pheromones. No one in the comic is aware that there pheromones, just us readers.

From his/her point of view, all he/she knows is that when he/she lays on the charm, his/her target becomes really suggestable. From the other person's point of view, all they know is that Teddy/Teddi has become the object of their desire, and will do anything that he/she asks.

In this case, Naomi has been affected by the pheromones, demon Teddy doesn't seem to really care, and awake Teddy is trying to stop her. None of them are aware of what's going on, which is something that only us readers are aware of.

bridgetvoid
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 12-11-18 I Want You So Bad

Post by bridgetvoid » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:06 pm

Absinthe Green wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:44 am
Fereshte wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:33 am
I think we’ve found where the writers have drawn their line. They’re okay with a woman raping other women (Teddi and the girls as school), or a man raping other men (Teddy with the boys at school), but when it comes to a man raping a woman, the writers put a stop to it (or so it seems. Who knows what the next page will show).
Enough with this False-Equivalency Rape-Obsession horseshit.

Equating DC's sexual highjinx-slapstick-goofballing with Actual Sexual Assault demeans & belittles what surviors of Actual Sexual Assault have been put through. Fuck that shit in the eye with a pointed stick.

Also: interesting to note - the ones that won't STFU about "Supernatural Rape"* seem perfectly cool with the fact that the Girljock posse were out to pummel Teddi into a bloody smear. They can't stop sending the message "Sex Bad. Violence Good."

*thank you for sharing ad nauseam what turns you on, but nobody asked.
hi yeah, so as someone who was assaulted by their partner in a coercive situation, comics like this are actually kind of triggering to people who are survivors of sexual assault since not all sexual assault looks like it came out of an episode of Law and Order SVU. Also the whataboutism irt to the violence is dumb.

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Fluffy
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 12-11-18 I Want You So Bad

Post by Fluffy » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:29 pm

Ninjax2000 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:55 pm
It all comes down to the pheromones. No one in the comic is aware that there pheromones, just us readers.
Teddi was well aware that (at least in regards to the girls; no idea why he didn't clue in the same applied to the jocks) there was some kind of supernatural/succubus influence involved that made them lust after him; he just wasn't aware that he was the one behind it. Whether he knew it was pheromones proper or something else isn't the point; the point is Teddi knew these people were not in their right minds, and took advantage of the situation - always justifying his actions as something far more noble than it was in order to excuse his wretched behavior ('I'm boning these guys in order to save Chloe/sleeping with these girls to help them get it out of their system - no matter how long it takes').

In this situation with Naomi; it shouldn't take a clue by four smashing into Teddy's thick skull to tell him that she is under succubus influence - considering she's acting very much out of character and is demanding snu snu from him. If he's still clueless as to what's going on in the next couple of updates, he'll officially be dumber than a sack of potatoes.
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Spidrift
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 12-11-18 I Want You So Bad

Post by Spidrift » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:36 pm

Aside from all of which — even if a good lawyer could get Teddy off a rape charge on the frankly dispiriting grounds that he was too stupid to know what he was doing, the story has slumped into a depressing mess of dubious consent issues and every character in sight logically being likely to regard this as the most degrading time of their lives.
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MissMadness
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Post by MissMadness » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:51 am

Honestly if you guys really want to put it to rest. Succubi are creatures of hell that feed on sex, consent isn't part of thier M.O. Adding to that in this comic, they are born under violent means, they lose their virginity under violent means and their job in the grand scheme of things is to cause suffering of humans through the use of sex and atteration. For this particular form of Teddy I actually give him the benfit of the doubt since he isn't actually in his right mind and clearly isn't aware of what happened. This could be dr. Jekll Mr. Hyde thing going on with Teddy now. Same body with dark half is fully in control

Teddi presplit is simple as well. She has unknowingly been committing sex crimes. It's gonna stay unknowingly until someone who isn't a demon explains that to the teddis. Because from a demon point of view this is all okay, because they are demons.

I think that's the key thing here, Teddi has never gotten any information of how they're actions affect people outside of demons. Yes Teddi can see that people wan them but do they understand WHY no, so they just think of it must be because their hot and goes along with it. That doesn't excuse the crime but it explains why teddi keeps going with it.

Also don't try to say it's common sense to see it that way because clearly none of bloody characters in this comic have enough common sense to fill a spoon.

Gotoh
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 12-11-18 I Want You So Bad

Post by Gotoh » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:55 am

Fluffy wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:29 pm
In this situation with Naomi; it shouldn't take a clue by four smashing into Teddy's thick skull to tell him that she is under succubus influence - considering she's acting very much out of character and is demanding snu snu from him.
That's another part of the problem, 'cuz the cast of DC seems to suffer a substantial IQ drop compared to the cast of the other two *C-verse comics.

Gotoh
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Re:

Post by Gotoh » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:22 am

MissMadness wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:51 am
Honestly if you guys really want to put it to rest. Succubi are creatures of hell that feed on sex, consent isn't part of thier M.O.
Villainous characters commit murder, or attempt to do so too. But we still call it what it is, don't we? So why shouldn't we view what Teddy's been doing through the same lense? :-\
MissMadness wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:51 am
Yes Teddi can see that people wan them but do they understand WHY no, so they just think of it must be because their hot and goes along with it.
Teddy is fully aware that something is compelling Daisy and her friends to want to sleep with him, because he knows it isn't their usual behavior. We even saw him acknowledge that Daisy wasn't in her right frame of mind, so he decided to try screwing whatever was controlling her out of her system. If a guy did that to a girl who was intoxicated, or roofied, we'd call it what it was.

Even Chandler Bing had the decency to ask Monica if she was drunk and made certain it was something she really wanted to do before sleeping with her. And she reaffirmed it the following morning, after she'd had time to sober up.

Continuity
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Re: Dangerously Chloe 12-11-18 I Want You So Bad

Post by Continuity » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:36 am

Have we seen the demonic pact sigil on either of these Teddies after the deific schism? I can't recall. I would expect, however, that SOMETHING should be lighting up Chloe's afterburner from all this activity. But is it both of them?

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